Vote Fraud Allegations Gathers Steam

I believe this is the post you referred to that I "didn't respond to" (if it was another post, please let me know).

I didn't respond, because I agreed with the post, I did click to give you positive points though.

Regards


A


jimnyc said:
Welcome to the board, Andy. :)

I agree with you about a fair election process. But I also believe this election went exactly that route. Like you said, any recounts won't alter the outcome. In fact, they won't even come close.

ALL citizens should demand a fair election process and make sure the newer technology is not breaking down the system. This shouldn't be about Dems trying to look for any little nuance or loophole to try to weasel the election. Bottom line - Bush won the electoral vote and nothing will change that. I just hope those complaining are reaching for a better election process rather than looking foolish like they did in 2000 by claiming the election was stolen.
 
Zhukov said:
If this is the case, I wonder how he is taking the fact that many in his party and in the media have already gone on the record complaining about how awful a candidate he was, further marginalizing him, and how he has already vanished from the spotlight faster the Dukakis.

I suppose they are trying to save face.


Zhukov said:
What you describe is, however appropriate it may be for Sen. Kerry, a losing strategy.

He already lost - it is at best a "damage control" strategy.


A
 
rtwngAvngr said:
Your instincts are correct; that is the appropriate response.

Oh, we get all kinds. I'm confident you'll fare no better.

I believe fundamentalist islam is at an altogether different level of violent tumult and mobilization toward violence at this particular juncture in history. I do not see "extremist" christianity and judaism as being nearly the same level a threat. Anyone making this erroneous conclusion is obviously quite an obsequious flapjack taster.

Again, I just don't see it being too similar to christian and judaic terrorism.

google oil for food or un scandal and read for yourself.

Good for you.

Since Im not a believer in "God" I have a question....how do you differentiate who's killing in the name of their "God" is extremist or on a different level of violence.?....anyone killing in the name of their god is a fundamental extremist.
 
Zhukov said:
You'd like them to be more similar?

At any rate, that is the way it has generally been throughout our history, and I tend to think we've turned out alright so far.


It's not that 'd like them to be more similar - but I would like to see candidates and platforms that are more centrist.

And I don't think we're doing all that great - I think we can be better.


A
 
jimnyc said:
That's twice you've misquoted me now. Please use the quote button if you are having trouble rewriting exactly what someone wrote. I asked "What have you done to be able to judge someone so harshly?"

And my point stands - I needn't have done anything to judge a political representative as harshly as I deem fit. Dissent is a vital aspect of the American political process.

And I'll be more careful in quoting you correctly in the future.


jimnyc said:
Your resume shows absolutely nothing at all that leads me to believe you are qualified to judge him so harshly.

My qualifications are "I'm an American". I need no other qualification.

jimnyc said:
And no, it's not your duty to do so. Do you seriously consider it your duty to call the President of the USA illterate, when he's not? Incompetent or inept, when he's not? A moron, when he's not? You seriously think it's your duty to offer your unsubstantiated opinions? How very sad if you believe so.

I call 'em as I see 'em. Just like any other pundit.

What, prey tell, do you consider "qualifications" to state an opinion? At what point does someone have the right to go from kowtowing support to opposition to dissent?


How sad if you believe one must be "qualified" to voice an opinion. Do you think one must be "qualified" to vote?


Regards


Andy
 
jimnyc said:
Your statements are hilarious. I have a few of my own spinning statements, how do you feel about these:

1- So many have accused Bush of stealing the elections and they always offer ZERO proof.

I offer no proof either - and I never said he stole this election.

jimnyc said:
2- Leading democrats made statements about Iraq and WMD and then changed their minds during election year like nobody would notice.

Democrats are idiots too.

jimnyc said:
3- Dead people vote.

Then you admit there is voter fraud. yes, we need to work to combat voter fraud. Do you disagree?

jimnyc said:
4- Thousands of terrorists have been killed or captured and hundreds of terrorist plots have been foiled in the past 3 years.

Really? Proof? Hundreds of plots? And innocents and civil rights? Out the window?



Regards

Andy
 
Okay - I believe I have responded now to everyone's substantive comments.

If you feel I have not responded to YOUR comments, please let me know and I will.

I will not waste further time responding to the ad hominems in this thread. We can start a new thread for that

:)


Andy Somers
The Smug Fodder for your Affections.
 
sagegirl said:
Since Im not a believer in "God" I have a question....how do you differentiate who's killing in the name of their "God" is extremist or on a different level of violence.?....anyone killing in the name of their god is a fundamental extremist.


I imagine by the body count... I think the Muslims win there for THIS century.


:wtf:


Andy
 
CivilLiberty said:
but it is also true that discrepancies from properly conducted polls can point to problems in the election process.
It is equally true that discrepancies between polls and actual outcomes can point to problems in the way the polls were conducted.
Yes, this is possible - and it's equally possible that the GOP might do the same.
To skew the polls in favor of Sen. Kerry, which is the matter under discussion? The question is: why were the polls wrong? Your response to my scenario 'that the GOP might do the same' is irrelevant.
Sure. Of course it was fixed - it WAS discovered! I expect it to be fixed - don't you? Perhaps I was expecting too much of my readership to read into the implication - this example was caught - what about cases where it was NOT caught?
No, your implication in the full context of the statement you made was that the GOP cheated. You imply it again here. But not only were those votes not counted, you have ignored the fact that no tampering was suspected, therefore there is no implication concerning 'cases where it was not caught.'
 
CivilLiberty said:
As I often say on my blog About Civil Liberties,</a> the right to vote is among the most important civil rights we have. But that right is meaningless if the vote is not counted accurately.

I have avoided falling into the community of conspiracy theorists by claiming "vote fraud" just because I am personally unhappy with the election results. I'm not interested in what aluminum - foil - hat wearing kooks have to say on the subject. However, in view of mounting evidence, vote fraud is coming mainstream, and it's important that we discuss this topic.

First of all, let's consider exit polls. How could they be so wrong in certain battleground states? Either the exit polls were very wrong, or the vote count was very wrong. Wrong by <i> more than the margin of error</i> of the polls.

In Florida, the exit poll was off by 5% in Bush's favor, and in Ohio, the exit poll was off by 6.7% in Bush's favor. 6.7% is a huge difference, and far far past the margin of error for the poll.

So then, are the exit polls valid? What could account for such a statistical difference? A recent examination of exit polls in light of this election is presented <a href="http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/The_unexplained_exit_poll_discrepancy_v00k.pdf"> here by Dr. Steven Freeman </a> of the University of Pennsylvania. In his study, Dr. Freeman shows that exit polls have historically been a very accurate indicator of election results.

If polls have been historically accurate, what then accounts for the many discrepancies in this election? And why were these discrepancies isolated to specific key battleground states?

In the 10 key battleground states of Colorado, Florida, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Ohio and Pennsylvania, Bush received an average of 4.7% more votes than the exit polls indicated. In NH it was a whopping 9.5%. In 8 of these states the poll was off by more than the margin of error. On the other hand, the swing state of Wisconsin, and in many other states, the exit poll was exactly accurate.

In some of the battleground states, the difference would not change the election outcome. But in Florida, Ohio, and <i>many others</i>, the difference swings Kerry into the winner's seat - and in a big way.

Now, perhaps one could dismiss these 8 very unusual anomalies where the poll was off by more than the margin of error as some sort of statistical freak accident. Perhaps one could, were it not for the many thousands of reports of malfeasance relating to the vote in these states.

In both Ohio and Florida, computer touch screen machines <a href="http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/4154"> miscast votes for Bush</a>, which were intended for Kerry. A machine in an Ohio precinct awarded Bush an <a href="http://ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=919"> additional 3,893 votes</a>, Thousands of votes were lost by machines <a href="http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1713242,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03119TX1K0000594"> in North Carolina, </a>and Florida machines <a href="http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/news/epaper/2004/11/05/a29a_BROWVOTE_1105.html"> miscounted absentee ballots. </a>And these are just a few of the problems we know about today.

A second oddity is that in many of these states, Diebold electronic voting machines are used. These machines do not leave a paper trail of verifiable votes. More curious is that the CEO of Diebold said that he'd "give Ohio to Bush". While it may be inconceivable that such a bold fraud would actually be perpetrated, there have been reports that Diebold machines came "pre-loaded" with 2000 votes for Bush.

And a final concern is over the manner that the elections were carried out. As an example, in Ohio's more Democratic precincts, voter lines were 10 hours long. This is because Democratic leaning precincts were given only 1 voting machine per 1000 voters, while Republican precincts had 1 voting station per 184 voters.

So then, where is Kerry in all of this? He made his concession speech, sure - but a concession speech is not legally binding in any way. What if a recount in Ohio or Florida gave Kerry a majority of the electoral college? Then yes, he would become president.

So is Kerry walking away? I wouldn't be so sure. As <a href="http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm"> Betsy Vasquez writes</a>, Kerry is waging a smarter war on the recount issue - instead of falling into the trap that Al Gore did, igniting the passions of the nation in 2000, Kerry and his team are quietly gathering evidence and seeking the truth. Meanwhile, Nader and Cobb are calling for recounts. With third parties calling for recounts, the focus is shifted off Kerry, who will not come forward unless there is evidence that will change the out come of the election. And if there is, then you can bet that Kerry will become <i>very</i> visible indeed.

For an additional point of view, see <a href="http://www.opednews.com/swanson_111004_media_black_out.htm"> this story from David Swanson.</a>



Best Regards,

Andy Somers

Late to this thread, but in case nobody else did I'd like to post Ann Coulter's latest article in reply to the original subject of this thread and get your reaction to it since you're a journalist and all:
http://www.anncoulter.org/
 
CivilLiberty said:
It's not that 'd like them to be more similar - but I would like to see candidates and platforms that are more centrist.
Wouldn't that make them more similar?
CL said:
And I don't think we're doing all that great - I think we can be better.
Of course we can do better, we can always do better, but unaligned colonies to humanity's greatest civilization in less than 250 years isn't 'doing all that great'? I'd say it was a pretty good example that we must be doing something right, and I think it's more than 'great'.
 
Well, this thread has moved hell and away from the original topic, but if it's alright with everyone (and even if it's not) I'd like to go back to it for just a second since that's what drew me to the thread to begin with. I'm not an Emmy Award winning sound editor, and my resume doesn't include the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling, but I like to think that some of my points are valid.

I've been in favor of completely doing away with exit polls for years. I would think that the election of the most powerful man in the free world would be a time we could set aside our "I want it now!" attitude and wait for the actual vote count. There are also several reasons exit polls have reached a point of not being reliable.
First, if the high turnout for early voting continues, in my opinion that's enough to make exit polls useless.
Second, there has been a rather quiet "movement" against exit polls over the last several years, with people lying up and down their ballot. This practice is growing with each election and it's really nothing new. I remember Linda Ellerbee encouraging people to lie on their exit polls as far back as 1984.
Third, there is no exit polling in rural areas. A look at the county by county map shows that the bulk of support for President Bush came from the smaller populated areas, which make up most of the country when it gets right down to it. There was no exit polling where I live, and none done anywhere near where I live as far as I know. Dallas perhaps, but that leaves thousands upon thousands of people that were not involved between here and there.
Fourth, and arguably most obvious, is the news networks need to be the first to announce a winner and their heavy reliance on exit polls. Of course, this essentially goes back to "I want it now!".

Frankly, I'm getting sick of the cries of voter fraud where there is no evidence of it. I am not aware of any evidence supporting voting machines in Ohio being pre-set with votes for President Bush, however I do know there was a bit of a stir in Pennsylvania (a state won by Kerry) when some machines apparently had some votes already on them.

I don't know how much steam the allegations have actually gathered. Honestly, this is the first I've seen of it. If there is some hard evidence of voter fraud or shenanigans, let's see it. If the only thing anyone can do is speculate, twist the truth, and take things out of context...well, save that for DU.
 
All I'm gonna add is that if the choice comes down to:

A) A terrorist attack is prevented

or

B) A few people lose their God-given right to e-mail privacy

I'm goin with option B.
 
Zhukov said:
Wouldn't that make them more similar?Of course we can do better, we can always do better, but unaligned colonies to humanity's greatest civilization in less than 250 years isn't 'doing all that great'? I'd say it was a pretty good example that we must be doing something right, and I think it's more than 'great'.


Humanities greatest civilization? Who? United States? How? On what basis?



A
 
ScreamingEagle said:
Late to this thread, but in case nobody else did I'd like to post Ann Coulter's latest article in reply to the original subject of this thread and get your reaction to it since you're a journalist and all:
http://www.anncoulter.org/

I will no longer waste my time listening to (or reading) the vitriolic ramblings of that lunatic ***** Ann Coulter - but thanks for the suggestion.



Regards,


A
 
Jimmyeatworld said:
Well, this thread has moved hell and away from the original topic, but if it's alright with everyone (and even if it's not) I'd like to go back to it for just a second since that's what drew me to the thread to begin with. I'm not an Emmy Award winning sound editor, and my resume doesn't include the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling, but I like to think that some of my points are valid.

Oh sure, point to the first worthless piece of crap I ever worked on when I was a kid. Yea, that defines me alright...

Jimmyeatworld said:
I've been in favor of completely doing away with exit polls for years. I would think that the election of the most powerful man in the free world would be a time we could set aside our "I want it now!" attitude and wait for the actual vote count. There are also several reasons exit polls have reached a point of not being reliable.

As I recall, the networks were waiting for the actual count more than considering the polls.

Jimmyeatworld said:
First, if the high turnout for early voting continues, in my opinion that's enough to make exit polls useless.

Yes, unless early voting becomes part of the random sample, then the results will indeed be skewed. Do you know for a fact that early voters were not polled?

Jimmyeatworld said:
Second, there has been a rather quiet "movement" against exit polls over the last several years, with people lying up and down their ballot. This practice is growing with each election and it's really nothing new. I remember Linda Ellerbee encouraging people to lie on their exit polls as far back as 1984.

I remember the "polls are bad" movement back in the 70s - but what percentage of people provide disingenuous answers to pollsters? If it's a small portion of the random sample, the skewing would be minimal. It's one of the reasons that a "true random" sample is used - if a few percent of the sample group were disingenuous, they would cancel each other out to a great degree.

Jimmyeatworld said:
Third, there is no exit polling in rural areas.

How do you know? Do you have access to the polling methodology report? If geographic areas are not randomized, then the selected sample will not be randomized, and therefore not accurate. I haven't read the methodology report for the polls, so I can't say. If you have not, then you cannot say, either. I would be surprised if such esteemed pollsters as Edison and Mitofsky neglected to randomize based on geographic area.

Of course, if they failed to randomize on geography, then the poll results would indeed be fatally skewed.

Jimmyeatworld said:
A look at the county by county map shows that the bulk of support for President Bush came from the smaller populated areas, which make up most of the country when it gets right down to it. There was no exit polling where I live, and none done anywhere near where I live as far as I know.


You wouldn't know in most cases - pollsters are very innocuous - they're trained to be. And the sample size is so small it's highly unlikely you personally would ever run into one, or know someone who has.

Jimmyeatworld said:
Dallas perhaps, but that leaves thousands upon thousands of people that were not involved between here and there.

Random samples and margins of error are discussed in another post in this thread.

Jimmyeatworld said:
Fourth, and arguably most obvious, is the news networks need to be the first to announce a winner and their heavy reliance on exit polls. Of course, this essentially goes back to "I want it now!".

As I recall, no one was calling winners till the precinct results started flowing in.

Jimmyeatworld said:
Frankly, I'm getting sick of the cries of voter fraud where there is no evidence of it. I am not aware of any evidence supporting voting machines in Ohio being pre-set with votes for President Bush, however I do know there was a bit of a stir in Pennsylvania (a state won by Kerry) when some machines apparently had some votes already on them.

I'm not aware of any such evidence in Ohio - the only evidence I have I presented in my article. And yes, no indication of "fraud" - but interesting anomalies none the less.

However, there are certain cases and actual evidence of fraud:

Here is a case of voter fraud in New Mexico:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041109-010659-3448r.htm

And another:
http://www.times-standard.com/Stories/0,1413,127~2896~2523405,00.html

And here some people were arrested for voter fraud:
http://www.eastbayri.com/story/288322905494096.php


Jimmyeatworld said:
I don't know how much steam the allegations have actually gathered. Honestly, this is the first I've seen of it. If there is some hard evidence of voter fraud or shenanigans, let's see it. If the only thing anyone can do is speculate, twist the truth, and take things out of context...well, save that for DU.


DU? I don't think I was taking anything out of context, just reporting some anomalies - you can draw your own conclusions however you want, and read into it what you want.

I don't see how VF could alter the election with this wide a margin. If it did, this country's troubles are very large indeed.


Regards,


Andy
 
15th post
theim said:
All I'm gonna add is that if the choice comes down to:
A) A terrorist attack is prevented
or
B) A few people lose their God-given right to e-mail privacy
I'm goin with option B.


A quote:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

- Benjamin Franklin




A
 
jimnyc said:
I notice you didn't answer the question. Do you think the election was stolen/rigged?


give me a fair, honest, reasonable explanation as to why the eixt polls were off by such a large margin, and so consistently in bush's favor, and i'll tell you that i wholeheartedly believe in the legitimacy of the election. i can't wait. :smoke:
 
spillmind said:
give me a fair, honest, reasonable explanation as to why the eixt polls were off by such a large margin, and so consistently in bush's favor, and i'll tell you that i wholeheartedly believe in the legitimacy of the election. i can't wait. :smoke:

Exit polls have nothing at all to do with the official election. They're just like pre-election polls - useless.
 

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