"We need an alternative to elections"
Kalman Livskind interviews historian Dr. Yigal Bin Nun
Livskind: We're saying Shalom to the historian Dr. Yigal Bin Nun. We'd like to discuss Your recent article in Haaretz, where You suggest, maybe, to stop with this thing called Democracy. Among other things You write: "if Netanyahu's rule is an achievement, there's no need to bring examples of dark rules which came to power through democratic elections". That's is?
Dr. Yigal Bin Nun: You've taken the example that interests You, but the situation is much wider. Yes right I've written that. The question is wider, it's not only connected to Netanyahu, or only Israel, the question being asked to all the world. The question is - whether to govern a state or states in the world, in most optimal manner, the tool at our dispense for this called democracy, meaning to turn towards the public with questions it has no answers to, whether this is the correct way? I'm saying today, democracy has bankrupted, there's a need to entirely forsake it, put it aside idea wise, or even kick it thought-wise if want, and think about ways appropriate to our reality.
Liv: Intentionally, I've brought up Netanyahu, because he's our issue, and because we're on the night of elections, so I'm trying to learn from him, or from You, that something doesn't work here. There were elections, Netanyahu was chosen, what's wrong?
Nun: What's wrong? The mere fact of elections, the fact of their existence, and especially for the 4th time, this means the system has totally failed, and we have to leave it.
Liv: Why?
Nun: Because if approach the public with pictures of Netanyahu, pictures of other contendants, and tell it - You vote for this picture that a designer created, or for that slogan made up by a copyrighter, we reach absurdity that has no connection to managing a state. It's a bad joke.
Liv: No Dr. Bin Nun, we know You don't like Netanyahu, and You want him to leave us,
which is totally fine.
Nun: No don't say it's fine, I didn't say that, and neither do You.
Let's leave the theme of Netanyahu.
Liv: Right, I didn't says, but You said at least on Your facebook page. And that's legitimate. What I'm wondering, could it be that You've tried all the possible democratic ways to move Netanyahu, and since it didn't go, because there's this 'multitude' like that voting for him. And You said- let's change the system, enough of democracy already.
Nun: Yes, I'm saying the democratic system, not only regarding Netanyahu, regarding any other contender, is't good, because people are required to answer questions or situations they have no idea about. The question whether approaching the entire nation, a lot of things folks don't understand, and it doesn't matter, can be a professor or a hairdresser or a fashion designer, it's the same.
Liv: No, it's not the same thing. You're hurting in Your article, the rebellion declared by the 'populous classes' as You call them, against the elites.
Nun: That's one of the examples, that indeed it's possible to use this wrong system called democracy, for populist and negative needs, which is demagoguery and it was done also in the past.
Liv: But why demagoguery, the population goes out and votes for whom they want. When You write that: "Do millions of citizens who vote according irrational considerations, should decide the fate of all and the fate of the state?". It seems You're the one motivated by irrational considerations.
Nun: Correct, is that rational to vote for a picture?
Liv: No, not for a picture, You maybe vote for a picture, I vote for the list to the Knesset.
Nun: A list to the Knesset?
Liv: Yes, yes.
Nun: You say 'list to the Knesset', but people don't know what stands behind these words.
Liv: What does that mean?
Nun: No one knows, and neither do You.
Liv: I see Binyamin Netanyahu, I see Betzalel Smotrich, I see Ayman Oudeh and I decide for whom among them I want to vote.
Nun: No You don't know what stands behind every list, and no one can know people see a picture. People see an image, it's like we're almost dealing with magic, not something rational.
Liv: So what do You want to take our right to vote?
Nun: Think a little.
Liv: To take our right to vote and give it to whom?
Nun: To no one. First we have to throw out this system and begin thinking.
Liv: Threw it out.
Nun: Oh! If say 'threw out', then You can tell Yourself, once put that aside, let's see how can we buid an alternative most appropriate for today's reality.
Liv: Reality in which Dr. Bin Nun who will choose the Prime Minister? You don't want the populous. So who should?
Nun: Don't bring politics into this.
Liv: But eventually it's politics, someone has to choose people and close deals.
Nun: You're lowering the level of the discourse in vain, let's not talk politics, let't talk fundamental issues, don't go so low. The cardinal question says - whether in the situation to which the world reached, record achievements in science and every aspect of life, the situation in the world today is the best one can imagine, the situation of Israel today is best it was compared to 30, 20, 10 years ago.
Liv: Whom do You want to choose the leaders?
Nun: Again I'm saying! No to choosing leaders! Leave that! You're not listening.
Liv: So I don't understand You.
Nun: The elections don't fit our reality today, I'm not for that.
Liv: What does fit?
Nun: Democracy is elections, I don't want elections.
Liv: What do You want instead?
Nun: Oh, now the joker.
Liv: We've reached the joker literally at the end, if You can in short.
Nun: There's no short way.We need to do it wisely, not in short, then You'll fall in trap and start talking about in who's favor are You, Netanyahu or someone else.
Liv: So let's not waste time, maybe after all try in short.
Nun: To think, mind, not pictures, not jingles. And if gathered people to sit and think about an alternative to our unique situation today, not the one in the past, then we can reach a correct alternative.
Liv: Ok Dr. Bin Nun, we'll write down that homework and we'll think.
Dr. Bin Nun thank You.
Nun: Thank You.
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