Turkish army fires on PKK in Iraq

[Gunny]

The Turkish army says it has inflicted "heavy losses" on rebels from the Kurdish separatist PKK movement across the border in Iraq.
The army said it fired on a group of about 50 rebels, though the statement did not say troops entered Iraq.

In October, Turkey's parliament voted to allow the military to launch operations into Iraq to combat the PKK, which had stepped up attacks in Turkey.

But Iraq and the US have urged Turkey not to carry out its threat.

"As part of intelligence work, a group of 50-60 PKK terrorists was spotted inside Iraq's borders," south-east of the Turkish town of Cukurca in Hakkari province, the army said on its website.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7122920.stm

My opinion is if they want to kill terrorists, let 'em. Just so much less US troops have to worry about.

 

[roomy]

My opinion is if they want to kill terrorists, let 'em. Just so much less US troops have to worry about.

The trouble is, the Turks are the most untrustworthy of nations, they obviously see a way to expand and they will no doubt take it while we let them.I say drop a bomb on the bastards.

 

[Gunny]

The trouble is, the Turks are the most untrustworthy of nations, they obviously see a way to expand and they will no doubt take it while we let them.I say drop a bomb on the bastards.

Bomb which bastards?

I agree where the Turks are concerned. They're as nationalistic as ever.

 

[ekrem]

So.
Until now there have been 3 bombing missions with different weapon plattforms included.

General Staff has published video and photo materials of all 3 attacks.
Detailed reports about death kills and so on, were released only for first attack on 16th December 2007, yet.
Statistics for the 2 other attacks will be released also.

From Army Homepage about attack on 16th December:
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/10_ARSIV/10_1_Basin_Yayin_Faaliyetleri/10_1_Basin_Aciklamalari/2007/BA_39.html

- 33 different Target groups
- 3 command centres
- 2 telecommunication centres
- 9 logistic centres
- 14 weapon depots
- 10 anti-aircraft stations
- 182 hideouts, holes, barracks
- 150-175 dead terrorists (Dead terrorists in collapsed structures not included)

If the statistics of the latest 2 attacks are released by General staff, i will tell you also about.
But we can think, that about 500-1000 PKK-Terrorists have dies in all 3 attacks and most of their structures in North-Iraq is history.
As always stated by relevant institutions in Turkey (Prime-Ministry, Presidency, General Staff) fight is going on.

In next days, Israel will deliver further Heron UAV's on lease agreement, as indigeniously developed Gözcü UAV is entering into service in 2009, which is too late.
Israeli UAVs headed soon to Turkey
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iyJj49erbTC0lCTqtQvO9bTAJ5HQ

And finally within 3 months, the first of our miltary satellite is in space:
Turkey to rely on own satellite system to gather intelligence
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/23/content_7299836.htm
In 3 months it must be about spring in this region for ground operations.
As i said somewhere before, i expect another distance attacks for a while. The whole thing is not over yet.

 

[ekrem]

Attacks of 16th December
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/d46I7_kVLwc&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/d46I7_kVLwc&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Attacks of 22th December
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/r6gAKeB1vow&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/r6gAKeB1vow&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

when i find video-material on youtube for 3rd attack (26th December), i will post also, if you are interested.

 

[ekrem]

Before and after Photos of 16th December 2007 attacks:
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/content/...p?prm=0,533424&id=1&galeriid=2446#galeriStart

 

[onedomino]

So canavar what has the deaths of a 1000 Kurds accomplished (if in fact that has actually happened, and if in fact they were actually PKK members), except guarantee the hatred of the Kurds and a continuation of the war? Obviously, that degree of damage is not going to knock the PKK out. Turkey is not occupying any ground. So what exactly is being accomplished, except the mollification of people like you?

 

[ekrem]

So canavar what has the deaths of a 1000 Kurds accomplished (if in fact that has actually happened, and if in fact they were actually PKK members), except guarantee their hatred of the Kurds and a continuation of the war? Obviously, that degree of damage is not going to knock the PKK out. Turkey is not occupying any ground. So what exactly is being accomplished, except the mollification of people like you?

1000 is just a subjective prediction, as it is not based on facts. Only 1st attack reports have been released. But what is confirmed by MIT (CIA of Republic)) and JITEM (CIA of Army) is that there are 3.500 PKK terrorists in Northern-Iraq.
No matter what you say, the attacks are succesfull, not only by decimateing these Terrorists, but by destroying their infrastructure.
The point, you do not see is, that PKK does only have North-Iraq as a base zone.
No other neighbour will harbour PKK and risk war with Turkey over it, as new harbouring country is not Occupied-Managed by USA.
We are now in the process of kicking PKK out of this area, and they have nowhere to leave. Neither Iran nor Syria.

Kurds? Yes, but terrorist Kurds. Like Arabs and Arab terrorist Al-Qaeda.
Obviously the fight against the PKK is going on and you are right, that so far Turkey is not occupying any ground. We currently bomb them from distance.
But as i said you weeks ago you base your judgement on static analysis, thinking of no other move is being made.
Since our last conversation, we distance-bombed them 2 times more. What i predicted back then and what is militarily absolute logic.
It is also absolute logic, that after the phase of distance-bombing there will be ground units used, and at the front of them war-helicopters and transport-helicopters going into the area and clean the rest of the shit.
We do not have an aim of makeing PKK "The Lighthouse of democracy" or bring them "Democarcy". We bring them death or jail. And this time, there is nowhere to flee. Everyone now cooperates from Syria over Iran to USA in this subject with Turkey. The only one who is not cooperating is local entity in North-Iraq which PKK is on their territory.
But as we say in Turkey, our talking partner is central government in Bagdad and as such logically the USA. Now all those talk shit of negotiation and coordination is over and we are in the phase of military exercising. On the end of this path lies total destruction of PKK and retracking of Turkey-USA relations, which has signal effect to friend and foes in the region, and effects a very wide range of interests from Afghanistan to US "redeployment" back to USA via Turkey.
Who the absolute looser in all this is and awakeing in reality out of "Alice-in-Wonderland"-dream, is the megalomaniac Barzani and Talabani.

 

[Gunny]

1000 is just a subjective prediction, as it is not based on facts. Only 1st attack reports have been released. But what is confirmed by MIT (CIA of Republic)) and JITEM (CIA of Army) is that there are 3.500 PKK terrorists in Northern-Iraq.
No matter what you say, the attacks are succesfull, not only by decimateing these Terrorists, but by destroying their infrastructure.
The point, you do not see is, that PKK does only have North-Iraq as a base zone.
No other neighbour will harbour PKK and risk war with Turkey over it, as new harbouring country is not Occupied-Managed by USA.
We are now in the process of kicking PKK out of this area, and they have nowhere to leave. Neither Iran nor Syria.

Kurds? Yes, but terrorist Kurds. Like Arabs and Arab terrorist Al-Qaeda.
Obviously the fight against the PKK is going on and you are right, that so far Turkey is not occupying any ground. We currently bomb them from distance.
But as i said you weeks ago you base your judgement on static analysis, thinking of no other move is being made.
Since our last conversation, we distance-bombed them 2 times more. What i predicted back then and what is militarily absolute logic.
It is also absolute logic, that after the phase of distance-bombing there will be ground units used, and at the front of them war-helicopters and transport-helicopters going into the area and clean the rest of the shit.
We do not have an aim of makeing PKK "The Lighthouse of democracy" or bring them "Democarcy". We bring them death or jail. And this time, there is nowhere to flee. Everyone now cooperates from Syria over Iran to USA in this subject with Turkey. The only one who is not cooperating is local entity in North-Iraq which PKK is on their territory.
But as we say in Turkey, our talking partner is central government in Bagdad and as such logically the USA. Now all those talk shit of negotiation and coordination is over and we are in the phase of military exercising. On the end of this path lies total destruction of PKK and retracking of Turkey-USA relations, which has signal effect to friend and foes in the region, and effects a very wide range of interests from Afghanistan to US "redeployment" back to USA via Turkey.
Who the absolute looser in all this is and awakeing in reality out of "Alice-in-Wonderland"-dream, is the megalomaniac Barzani and Talabani.

Y'know dude ... it's a shame. We're on Turkey's side in this until YOU open you mouth. You do your nation a grave disservice talking all your shit.

 

[onedomino]

Y'know dude ... it's a shame. We're on Turkey's side in this until YOU open you mouth. You do your nation a grave disservice talking all your shit.

That's right. No one in America supports PKK terrorists. But I fail to see what three bombing raids (in what? a month?) has accomplished. Pecking at the PKK will just prolong the war. A few F-16s are not going to take out the PKK. They have gone to ground and will bide their time before they strike again. From here, the operations against the PKK looks like a Turk government public relations campaign. You mentioned something about weather. What is this 1915? If your army is going to go after the PKK with ground troops and helicopters what are you waiting for? It may be that Ankara does not think that a ground campaign would be easy or offer a clear chance of success. If it is true that there are just 3500 PKK fighters, then why would they not just melt back into the general Kurd population when Turk ground troops came across the border? No, taking out the PKK will be quite difficult. Perhaps the only way to really take out the PKK is through negotiation.

 

[DeadCanDance]

Y'know dude ... it's a shame. We're on Turkey's side in this until YOU open you mouth. You do your nation a grave disservice talking all your shit.

LOL

Still allowing yourself to be toyed with?

The dudes spelling and punctuation are almost perfect. His mastery and knowledge of english and american colloquilaisms is impressive. He does mix up his words, to create the impression of a foreign accent. Do I have to spell it out for you?

 

[ekrem]

Today was US Vice General Staff Cartwright in Ankara. He stayed 7 hours and flew back to Washington.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=134014

As i said before, between US Vice General Staff Cartwright, Iraq Commander Petraeus and Turkish Vice General Staff Saygun is a triparty cooperation mechanism.

As you can see here, both Cartwright and Petraeus were on 20th November 2007 in Ankara
http://turkey.usembassy.gov/pr_112007.html

Turkish Vice General Staff went on 16 January 2007 to Bagdad to meet with Petraeus
http://www.kerkuk.net/haberler/haber.aspx?dil=2057&metin=2008011614

After that Vice General Staff Saygun went for 2 weeks to Washington and was guest to US Vice General Staff James Cartwright. He left Washington on 2nd February 2008
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=214290

Now a bit over a week, James Cartwright, who had welcomed Saygun some days before in Washington for 2 weeks came to Ankara. Either they like each other much or something is going on which can not be done via telephone.

In agency press like Reuters etc. these visits are described as:

joint efforts to curb separatist Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq, a US embassy official said.
General James Cartwright, vice chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, will discuss "the ongoing struggle" against the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) with Turkish counterparts, an embassy spokeswoman said.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080213/usa/turkey_us_iraq_kurds_unrest_talks

In Translation this means: After 5 distance aerial attacks and ending winter conditions on North-Iraqi mountains, Turkish ground troops will get involved in things. Till now only Airforce was involved, and Army fired only artillery bullets and missiles into the area. Off course i am neither a position nor in knowledge of giving a time frame.

And off course, as we are no war-fearing nation, it is from now on already predictable that Turkey will extend its presence in Afghanistan.
The reason why Turkey does not fight with Taliban is because USA did not let fight Turkey with PKK. But first PKK must be eradicated in our hinterland, before Turkish Public can understand Turkish Army fighting anywhere in Tora-Bora.

 

[ekrem]

Analysis by Stratfor

February has been a busy month for U.S-Turkish defense talks. Deputy Chief of Turkish General Staff Gen. Ergin Saygun met with visiting Vice Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. James Cartwright and Acting Coordinator for U.S. Counterterrorism Frank Urbancic in Ankara on Feb. 13. The week before, Saygun was in Washington, D.C., meeting with the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee. U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey arrived in Turkey on Feb. 14. And in two weeks, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates will be in Ankara for talks with Turkish security officials.

The main topic of these discussions is the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK). Though Turkey has conducted five air raids against PKK targets in northern Iraq over the past couple of months, tensions between Ankara and Iraq’s Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) have quieted down a great deal since the summer of 2007, when all the talk was about Turkey launching a major incursion into northern Iraq.

A large part of this has to do with the weather. The PKK operates in fairly controlled seasonal cycles. In the winter months, the PKK retreats to the Qandil mountain range along the Iranian border and goes into hibernation. Turkey has attempted to take advantage of this winter retreat by launching a few airstrikes aimed at taking out pockets of PKK forces while they are all concentrated in one area. But, thanks to the PKK’s mountainous safe-havens, these strikes have not been all that effective.

When the snow starts to melt, however, the situation is completely different. Spring is the traditional season for the PKK to ramp up its militant campaign and for Turkey to launch major ground incursions into northern Iraq. As soon as the foliage starts to grow back, both Turkish troops and PKK forces can begin moving back toward the Turkey-Iraq border to carry out operations with greater ease.

Turkey has some ambitious plans in store for the coming spring thaw. Though Ankara views the PKK as a major national security threat, its operations in northern Iraq are meant to achieve a much larger goal. The Turks want to ensure that Iraqi Kurdistan remains boxed in and that the oil-rich city of Kirkuk remains out of Kurdish hands. As long as the Turks can convince the Iraqi Kurdish government that its military is only a hop, skip and a jump away from sending its troops full force into northern Iraq, the Kurds will be wary about taking any bold steps toward enhancing their autonomy in the region.

But Turkey also has the United States to contend with, since Washington does not wish to see a major Turkish incursion into northern Iraq that would further derail the delicate political negotiations taking place in Baghdad. Washington already is playing a risky game in its negotiations with Iran over Iraq, particularly after the assassination of Hezbollah chief Imad Mughniyah. The last thing the United States needs is for the Turks to complicate the negotiating process even more.

The flurry of diplomatic activity between Washington and Ankara this month is in preparation for the coming tensions in northern Iraq this spring. The United States already is sharing real-time intelligence on the PKK with the Turks and will acquiesce to Turkey carrying out more shelling operations and airstrikes in the border region. Additionally, Washington can assure the Turks that it will stave off any discussions about holding the overdue Kirkuk referendum (a key Kurdish demand). The KRG also will be under heavy U.S. pressure to rein in the PKK as much as possible in order to deprive Turkey of justification for a major ground incursion.

The United States has a game plan to mediate between Turkey and the KRG, but there is no guarantee that the situation will not get out of hand. Anything from a major PKK attack in a large urban city in Turkey to an ambitious move by the KRG to grab control of Kirkuk could trigger the Turks to move in. The KRG — which is more eager to safeguard its energy investments than to provoke the Turks into an incursion — will do its part to keep the Turks at bay, but with so many moving parts in this region, the coming spring in northern Iraq is likely to be a lot hotter than usual.

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/turkey_u_s_preparing_hot_spring_thaw

 

[ekrem]

US Vice President to visit Turkey in March (UPDATED)
by Metehan Demir

US Vice President Dick Cheney will pay official visit to Turkey in March, sources told Hurriyet.com.tr.

ANKARA - US Vice President Dick Cheney, recognized by many as the mastermind of the Washington administration, and as someone who has directed the US towards the war in Iraq, will pay official visit to Turkey in March, sources told Hurriyet.com.tr. Cheney will be accompanied by high level military officials. The team will also include civilian officials, according to the sources. The visit is planned for one day.

Cheney will meet Turkish President Abdullah Gul as well as Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan. He is also expected to hold talks with the Turkish General Chief of Staff Yasar Buyukanit.

Cheney, who will spend just one night in Ankara, last visited Turkey in 2002, during the administration of former Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit. During his 2002 visit, Cheney met with Turkish officials about the possibility of using Turkish soil for US soldiers' entrances onto Northern Iraq territory.

His visit is expected to focus on the struggle against PKK, Turkey&#8217;s role in Iran&#8217;s nuclear standoff and Turkish army&#8217;s support to NATO forces in Afghanistan, the sources said. Throughout all of these meetings to take place in Ankara, authorities said a strong focus will be placed on the strategic partnership between Turkey and the US.

In the meantime, the US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, is also expected to be making a visit soon to Ankara. According to sources, Gates may come as part of the Cheney delegation, or separately. The growing number of top level meetings between Turkish and American officials, particularly in the wake of last November's meeting between Erdogan and US President George W. Bush at the White House, is attracting attention in both capitals.
(...)
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/8240009.asp?gid=74&sz=5155

 

[ekrem]

Turkish ground troops have crossed the boarder. Army says on its website, that the crossing backed by the airforce has happened at 19:00 o'clock Turkish time (New york + 7 Hours).
Before the Army bombarded between 10:00 - 18:00 o'clock the area with artillery, missiles and airforce. The "operation" is currently going on and the Army says, the troops will stay till the "job is done".
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/10_ARSIV/10_1_Basin_Yayin_Faaliyetleri/10_1_Basin_Aciklamalari/2008/BA_14.html

Army also says they predict misinformation from different circles, so that they will make a press conference in the afternoon about details.
So all that Agency News which are currently spread are not confirmable information.

Despite this Turkish newspaper with excellent connection to security forces says, that about 10.000 soldiers has been restocked to Turkish bases in North-Iraq.
It seems, Turkey is moving its barrier into North-Iraq like a puffer zone from where operations can start.
But this all not confirmed and Army will give detailed informations with multimedia material at afternoon.

 

[ekrem]

First official released pictures of the operation.
Main-Source:
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/10_ARSIV/10_4_Diger_Haberler/2008/sinir_harekati_2008/22_subat.htm
(Shown pictures here are from Newspaper, because original pictures are very big in dimensions and currently on army Homepage is heavy traffic)

 

[ekrem]

Chief of Staff says that 7 Turkish Special Forces died and 79 Terrorists have been eliminated for now.
Chief of Staff does not give either exact location datas nor how many Special Forces are involved in the "operation". What Chief of Staff says is, that Troops have crossed on 4 points into North-Iraq.

Turkish army says rebel death toll in N.Iraq at 79

ANKARA, Feb 23 (Reuters) - Turkey's military General Staff said on Saturday the number of Kurdish PKK rebels killed during its military offensive in northern Iraq had risen to 79.

In a statement posted on its Web site, the General Staff said two more of its soldiers had also been killed in clashes on Saturday, taking the death toll to seven since Turkish troops launched their cross-border offensive on Thursday evening.

"The offensive will continue to be waged with determination," it said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSL23248920

Some new Photos which Army has published on its Homepage:
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/10_ARSIV/10_4_Diger_Haberler/2008/sinir_harekati_2008/23_subat_2008.htm


What Turkish Army tries to do with this "operation" is cleaning the hideouts of the PKK directly behind the boarder. 0-25 KM deep in North-Iraq. At this depth geography is very low populated and it is lowlands. PKK uses this area as minor regrouping and logistics area before finally penetrateing Turkish boarder.
Main bases of PKK are a 260 km further away.
Because of this geography where Turkish army has sent Special forces in, there is also not much deathcount till now.

From these lowlands Turkish boarder will be controllable. Turkish army will set up here a puffer zone.That is also the reason why General Staff is sending Special Forces in snowy terrain at this point and does not wait till march when snow is gone.

Main bases of PKK are in Kandil mountains. Kandil mountains are about 260 km away from Turkish boarder. But our Army will likely not go all this way by footsteps. Turkish Army has airlifting capacity of 50.000 troops. Till weather conditions get better, we will continue hitting Kandil bases with missiles and airforce.
Sometime in spring we will clean that area.

Also North-Iraqi airspace is since December 2007 an extension of Turkish airspace. Off course all with the consens of USA.

 

[ekrem]

Now 3rd day of "operation". Since 3 days 112 terrorists eliminated and 15 Special Forces died.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=a5zmu9G3x8D0&refer=asia

Terrorists are planting bombs in the corpses of fallen terrorists before they flee.
The death toll lies at 1:10. Maybe there will be 2 to 5 days more fighting in snowy and mountaineous terrain then the area where it is thought of establishing a buffer zone might be cleaned and there is no chance for terrorists in future to cross boarder again.
When spring begins PKK main camps will be cleaned.


The following picture documents were Turkish Special Forces cleaned the geography from Terrorists. The picture is in Turkish, but i will transform datas in another picture after that:

Following picture is in now way a complete documentation. Also factors like Transport helicopters and other things like Howitzers and Airforce bombing areas are not within the picture. It gives hust an imagination where currently is something going on.