Totalitarian government happens

[Intense]

I think this is a genuine trend, and I see very little opposing it (outside limited numbers of libertarian rabble-rousers). Am I paranoid?

Depends. What are the other instances of this trend?

Good question...

It seems to be a natural by product of the growing presumption that government is responsible for our overall well-being. It's used as a justification for a wide variety of the so-called "nanny-state" laws. Arguments over drug laws, seat-belt laws, helmet laws, etc.. usually come around to some claim that these personal decisions cost taxpayers money, and that that justifies government dictating behavior.

Really, you see this dynamic any time the government is providing a service. Unemployment insurance provokes the same kind of demands. "Free" public education creates a similar tension where taxpayers feel justified in dictating how other people's children are raised.

From the Foundation, many of these issues were State Government issues.

 

[ladyliberal]

So, we have another one of those delightful "Drug test welfare recipients" threads. I think the issue actually raises an interesting dynamic that I'd hope we could talk about outside the usual welfare state vitriol. Rather than spoil the flame-fest over there, I'll indulge the conceit of simply quoting myself here ...

I didn't say they can't be. I was pushing back against the notion that this is some nefarious plot to control the population when it's obviously just a thinly-veiled attempt to cull the rolls, PRWORA-style.

It's not a nefarious plot. It's just the way it works out. Democrats push for the caretaker state, Republicans push for the police state. And once the dependency is in place, the dictating behavior part becomes compelling argument. Why should they be able to get high on taxpayer money?

We're going to start seeing the same dynamic once health care is socialized. The one thing Democrats and Republicans seem to agree on is that there's really no limit to what the government can force you to do, and once the public is picking up the tab for your health care, pretty much all your personal habits become fair game. Smoking? Poor diet? Couch potato? Look out, we're coming for you!

I think this is a genuine trend, and I see very little opposing it (outside limited numbers of libertarian rabble-rousers). Am I paranoid? Should this go in the "Conspiracy Theory" section? To reiterate, I'm not claiming it as a conspiracy, per se. No one hatched this as a deliberate policy; it's just an unfortunate side effect of our political divide.

Your concerns are plausible, but I'm not sure what evidence there is. Certainly one can point to specific areas where government control has increased over time, but I'm not sure that this is the overall trend. Industries have been deregulated. The incarceration rate appears to be leveling off. The Supreme Court has recognized new individual rights and struck down new government initiatives. A number of illegal government initiatives (eg, wiretapping by Hoover's FBI) appear to have been curtailed. Military drafts have not been enacted for a long period of time. Taxation rates have fallen significantly.

In short, it is not clear to me that overall, the government exerts more control over the individual now than it did in the past. It's also worth noting that government control is not inherently bad-- most of us recognize a limited need for taxes, regulation, and incarceration.

 

[dblack]

So, we have another one of those delightful "Drug test welfare recipients" threads. I think the issue actually raises an interesting dynamic that I'd hope we could talk about outside the usual welfare state vitriol. Rather than spoil the flame-fest over there, I'll indulge the conceit of simply quoting myself here ...

It's not a nefarious plot. It's just the way it works out. Democrats push for the caretaker state, Republicans push for the police state. And once the dependency is in place, the dictating behavior part becomes compelling argument. Why should they be able to get high on taxpayer money?

We're going to start seeing the same dynamic once health care is socialized. The one thing Democrats and Republicans seem to agree on is that there's really no limit to what the government can force you to do, and once the public is picking up the tab for your health care, pretty much all your personal habits become fair game. Smoking? Poor diet? Couch potato? Look out, we're coming for you!

I think this is a genuine trend, and I see very little opposing it (outside limited numbers of libertarian rabble-rousers). Am I paranoid? Should this go in the "Conspiracy Theory" section? To reiterate, I'm not claiming it as a conspiracy, per se. No one hatched this as a deliberate policy; it's just an unfortunate side effect of our political divide.

Your concerns are plausible, but I'm not sure what evidence there is. Certainly one can point to specific areas where government control has increased over time, but I'm not sure that this is the overall trend. Industries have been deregulated. The incarceration rate appears to be leveling off. The Supreme Court has recognized new individual rights and struck down new government initiatives. A number of illegal government initiatives (eg, wiretapping by Hoover's FBI) appear to have been curtailed. Military drafts have not been enacted for a long period of time. Taxation rates have fallen significantly.

In short, it is not clear to me that overall, the government exerts more control over the individual now than it did in the past. It's also worth noting that government control is not inherently bad-- most of us recognize a limited need for taxes, regulation, and incarceration.

Fair points. Still, it's this "not on my dime" mentality (that will only increase as more services are socialized), that is driving things.

What about the health care stuff? We're seeing it already, and it seems likely to get much worse if PPACA flies. If everyone is pushed into the same insurance pool, which seems to be the aim, I suspect people will start raising hell about anyone doing anything that makes it more likely they'll need expensive health care. Poor health habits, risky sports, dietary issues, even sexual conduct, will all be ripe targets. When our health becomes a state responsibility, the state has a genuine interest in controlling our personal health habits.

 

[Intense]

As the Bronx community met with the New York City Police Department on Saturday to talk about Thursday's shooting of 18-year-old Ramarley Graham, surveillance video that was released and first aired on NY1 shows the unarmed teenager entering his home moments before he was killed.

Authorities say Ramarley Graham fled from narcotics officers who approached him on White Plains Road and 228th Street in Wakefield at around 3 p.m. Thursday.

The officers put over the radio two separate times that they thought Graham had a gun. Police say they ordered the teen to stop but he went into his house on 229th Street.

Officers followed Graham into the house's second-floor bathroom, where the teen was fatally shot and found to be unarmed.

The pursuit was captured on surveillance video released on Saturday by the lawyer of the landlord of Graham's family.

In that video, Graham can be seen walking up to the house and entering through the front door. Seconds later, police officers are seen running up to the house. Some try to kick open the front door, while others search for alternate entrances.

Minutes later, the police entered the house through a first-floor entrance in the landlord's apartment and then opened the front door to let other officers enter.

"Clearly they were intent on getting into the house, they were intent on capturing this young man and they were intent on doing whatever they did. It's unfortunate,” said Neville Mitchell, the attorney for Graham's landlord.

The officers then followed Graham to the second-floor apartment, knocked and then kicked open the door and found Graham in the bathroom, where he was shot moments later.

Surveillance Video Shows Bronx Teen Pursued By Police Moments Before Shooting - NY1.com

 

[Paulie]

So, we have another one of those delightful "Drug test welfare recipients" threads. I think the issue actually raises an interesting dynamic that I'd hope we could talk about outside the usual welfare state vitriol. Rather than spoil the flame-fest over there, I'll indulge the conceit of simply quoting myself here ...

It's not a nefarious plot. It's just the way it works out. Democrats push for the caretaker state, Republicans push for the police state. And once the dependency is in place, the dictating behavior part becomes compelling argument. Why should they be able to get high on taxpayer money?

We're going to start seeing the same dynamic once health care is socialized. The one thing Democrats and Republicans seem to agree on is that there's really no limit to what the government can force you to do, and once the public is picking up the tab for your health care, pretty much all your personal habits become fair game. Smoking? Poor diet? Couch potato? Look out, we're coming for you!

I think this is a genuine trend, and I see very little opposing it (outside limited numbers of libertarian rabble-rousers). Am I paranoid? Should this go in the "Conspiracy Theory" section? To reiterate, I'm not claiming it as a conspiracy, per se. No one hatched this as a deliberate policy; it's just an unfortunate side effect of our political divide.

Your concerns are plausible, but I'm not sure what evidence there is. Certainly one can point to specific areas where government control has increased over time, but I'm not sure that this is the overall trend. Industries have been deregulated. The incarceration rate appears to be leveling off. The Supreme Court has recognized new individual rights and struck down new government initiatives. A number of illegal government initiatives (eg, wiretapping by Hoover's FBI) appear to have been curtailed. Military drafts have not been enacted for a long period of time. Taxation rates have fallen significantly.

In short, it is not clear to me that overall, the government exerts more control over the individual now than it did in the past. It's also worth noting that government control is not inherently bad-- most of us recognize a limited need for taxes, regulation, and incarceration.

You've mentioned a few small bones being thrown to the public for the sake of appeasement. In reality those things are nominal. There has been no meaningful deregulation, as it's still the conglomerates swallowing up the competition due to the inability to meet compliance. How do you know wiretapping has ceased? You believe the NSA isn't still listening to everything? That's naive. And where has the supreme court offered any individual liberties back? I've seen NOTHING done about the patriot act, and so far they are SILENT on the NDAA...not to mention the direct extra-judicial assassination of a US citizen by the administration.

You're the government's best friend. You're satisfied with their pathetic offerings.

 

[Intense]

We speak of Enumerated Powers, Due Process, Rule of Law, Transparency, Appeal. The Establishment and Service of Impartial Justice is about the Principle, the Ideal, with which the Means must come into Conformity with. We do not corrupt Principle to run cover for a misdirected construct, as a rule. Just a thought. Power for Powers sake, is Totalitarian. Power, without the Consent of the Governed, the Greater Society, needs to be Questioned, Everyday.

 

[Contumacious]

No one hatched this as a deliberate policy; it's just an unfortunate side effect of our political divide.

"Every politically controlled educational system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy sooner or later. . . . Once that doctrine has been accepted, it becomes an almost superhuman task to break the stranglehold of the political power over the life of the citizen. It has had his body, property and mind in its clutches from infancy. An octopus would sooner release its prey.

A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state. "

–Isabel Paterson, The God of the Machine (1943)

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