Tom DeLay, Kosovo And High Treason

[NATO AIR]

Very disturbing developments here about DeLay now make me consider him a corrupt piece of shit at best and a traitor in the worst case scenario (which is likely true).

Consider the background first.

Back during Bill Clinton's less than genius Kosovo air campaign (remember no ground troops could be involved, a matter probably equally decided by Clinton's poll-watching and Republican opposition to the war), Tom DeLay was a leading opponent, to the point of calling the US the aggressor, saying it was America's fault and all but openly cheerleading for Kosovo to become a quagmire (a lot of Democrats did these things over Iraq), as well as advocating appeasement of mass murder, territorial aggression and tyranny.

Delay & the shame of other Republicans over Kosovo;
http://slate.msn.com/id/27730/

The Weekly Standard noting the Republican senators like John McCain, Jesse Helms, Mitch McConnell and Richard Lugar who stood up for freedom and justice in the Balkans over the objections of their colleagues, as well as the implications for the future of the Republican Party (thank God the position these senators advocated won out, not the isolationist crap spewed by opportunists and cowards)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Protected/Issues/4-28-Apr5-12.PDF
Do Republicans really want to present themselves as the party of callous indifference to human suffering, the party that defends the “sovereign” right of brutal thugs like Slobodan Milosevic to slaughter innocent women and children, the party that won’t lift a finger against aggressive dictators, the party that doesn’t give a fig about what happens in Europe and is willing to
abandon U.S. leadership in NATO? Republicans have almost managed to make the feckless Clinton look like a champion of American moral leadership. That’s
quite an accomplishment.
The damage can, however, still be repaired. And the good news is that a few
prominent Republicans have stepped forward to uphold the Reagan mantle.
Bob Dole and Jeane Kirkpatrick have been arguing on both moral and strategic
grounds that the United States must do what it takes to defeat Milosevic and defend the Kosovar Albanians.
Republicans have every right to be critical of President Clinton—Steve Forbes, for example, is absolutely correct to say that “the bombing should have taken place six months ago, a year ago, two years ago.” But Sen. John McCain struck the right note when he insisted on the Senate floor that Republicans “must not compound the administration’s mistakes by committing our own.”
As McCain argued, “That the president has so frequently and so utterly
failed to preserve one of our most important strategic assets—our credibility—is not a reason to deny him his authority to lead NATO in this action. On the contrary, it is a reason for Congress to do what it can to restore our credibility. It is a reason for us to help convince Milosevic that the United States, the greatest force for good in history, will no longer stand by while
he makes a mockery of the values for which so many Americans have willingly given their lives.”

 

[NATO AIR]

Now considering DeLay was a leader of the opposition to Kosovo, let us consider the meat and potatoes of this topic.

DeLay embarked on a trip to Russia funded by business interests with strong ties in Russia (no news there, politicians do this all the time)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28319-2005Apr5.html

He also enjoyed a vacation to the Bahamas on the dime of a Russian connected company

http://slate.msn.com/id/2116392/nav/ais/
House ethics rules prevent members from taking trips abroad funded by lobbyists or by "foreign agents," groups or individuals registered to do political work for foreign organizations or governments. DeLay, however, has reportedly taken at least three such trips. In 1997, he went to Russia on the dime of a peculiar company based in the Bahamas and connected to Russian oil interests. In 2000, he went to Britain, his lavish journey paid for in part by a lobbyist. In 2001, he went to South Korea, funded by a recently registered foreign agent.

DeLay faces little danger because of these trips. Other congressmen, including Democrats, have taken similar trips and the House Ethics Committee, which has chief responsibility for policing such disciplinary infractions, is currently shuttered. After the committee admonished the Texas congressman for three infractions this fall, three Republican members were forced out and replaced with DeLay allies. The committee has not met this year because Democrats are protesting the new rules the committee has to operate under, which (surprise) make it much harder to initiate investigations.

What is disturbing is DeLay's vehement opposition to the war in Kosovo, what was his true motivation? Why, for example, did he take the extraordinary (and wholly dishonest) move of promising Clinton a resolution of support for the air war and then arranging it to fail (keep in mind he was the House majority whip at this time, in charge of "convincing" house republicans to adopt his/the party's POV on votes)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/shields&gigot/april99/sg_4-30.html
Mark Shields:
Tom DeLay, the House Whip, and a member of House Republicans, this actual impeachment. That's exactly what it is. They're going to make it Clinton/Gore's war and they're going to guarantee that it doesn't work. Paul can say they're emulating, they're simulating. What that was - you had the House Republican Whip whipping members on the floor to vote against air cover that had been supported by president George Bush, supported by Bob Dole, the last Republican nominee, supported by Dick Lugar, the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and John Warner, the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Dick Shelby, Richard Shelby, the Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. And he whipped them to the point where they were contradictory. They're saying we're against bringing our troops home. We're just going to leave them there.

That makes me suspect DeLay was paying back a political favor to his Russian benefactors, as Russia being the controlling outside power over Serbia's foreign policy, economy and government.

When American lives were on the line, when America was at war to defend freedom and strike back against tyranny, Tom DeLay was on the wrong side. Even worse, it may not have been simple cowardice and stupidity driving him to do this, but financial and political favors from a foreign nation's businessmen.

 

[tstunner]

and fox news wont even TOUCH this story with a 10 foot pole!

 

[NATO AIR]

and fox news wont even TOUCH this story with a 10 foot pole!

They will eventually, there are more and more Republicans like myself becoming aware of this and other serious problems of his. He will get dumped just like Trent Lott was. The sooner the better.

 

[Merlin1047]

They will eventually, there are more and more Republicans like myself becoming aware of this and other serious problems of his. He will get dumped just like Trent Lott was. The sooner the better.

DeLay's ethics, or lack thereof, notwithstanding, I have to say that I believe you're well off the mark with your conclusion regarding our interference in the Balkans. I get the impression from your posts that you think that the USA is the High Sheriff of the World and that we should go charging in wherever and whenever some atrocity is being committed. Personally, I don't agree even a little bit.

The US should step in when events threaten our national security interests. We should NOT interfere simply because there is a conflict in some backwater of the world. We should not go running off to some pesthole simply because faction A is murdering faction B. Kosovo was such a situation. Milosovich's actions, while reprehensible, did nothing to threaten our safety or our security. If France, Spain, Germany et al weren't sufficiently concerned to get involved with something going on in their own back yard, why the hell do you think that American lives should be lost in a cause which has no bearing on us? And please let's not go down the path "because it's the moral and ethical thing to do". Maybe it is, but how many American lives is such a cause worth. In my opinion - zero. Besides, Slick Willie didn't get us into that scrap because if was the morally upright thing to do. He got us into that to distract from the aaah - "domestic" problems he was having at the time.

So if folks in the middle east, or in Africa, or the Balkans, or the Basque region of Spain, or Kurdish separatists in Iraq, want to fight it out with their neighbors - fine. Let them go at it. Who are we to interfere with their determination to murder one another? The cold, hard fact is this - No matter how hard we may try, no matter how many American lives we may sacrifice, we will NEVER prevent the mayhem caused by tribalism in the world. We will NEVER prevent people killing each other who are determined to find a way to do exactly that.

 

[Adam's Apple]

I simply don't get the DeLay story. The more I hear and the more articles I read, it smells like politics and liberal propaganda.

Why would DeLay, a high-ranking U.S. government official, have to have his trips to Russia, Spain and South Korea paid for by foreign lobbyists/ businessmen? Hasn't the U.S. government always covered these expenses in the past? Maybe the writers of these articles are implying that the U.S. government is in such dire straits money-wise that our high-ranking elected officials have to seek foreign sponsors to cover their travel expenses nowadays.

Why is it that when John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, Tom Harkin, etc. travel abroad, it's always reported in the MSM that they are on "government business", but when Tom DeLay makes such trips, it's reported as "lavish vacations". Do you get the irony here?

 

[SmarterThanYou]

the unwavering support for an unethical, and yes nato..possibly treasonous, individual is astounding. but by all means, do and say anything you can to prevent any embarrasment for the party.

makes me sick.

 

[NATO AIR]

Merlin1047, I responded to you by starting a new thread in WOT containing your argument and my response, as I felt it would take us way out DeLay's problems and into a whole new realm if I responded in this thread.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=265953#post265953

 

[Avatar4321]

Other than BS propaganda. I haven't seen a reason to take DeLay out of his position. I'm tired of seeing Democrats try to come up with some scheme to get rid of Republican leadership. If people have a problem with him, beat him at the ballot box. But as long as his constituents keep electing him or he is found guilty of some grave crime, i see no reason why he can't continue in the position he has been elected to. And quite frankly I'm tired of seeing Republican's who keep turning on party leaders when the Democrats put too much pressure on them. It just encourages the Democrats to continue their propaganda machine instead of actually coming up with ideas to make this country better.

 

[NATO AIR]

Other than BS propaganda. I haven't seen a reason to take DeLay out of his position. I'm tired of seeing Democrats try to come up with some scheme to get rid of Republican leadership. If people have a problem with him, beat him at the ballot box. But as long as his constituents keep electing him or he is found guilty of some grave crime, i see no reason why he can't continue in the position he has been elected to. And quite frankly I'm tired of seeing Republican's who keep turning on party leaders when the Democrats put too much pressure on them. It just encourages the Democrats to continue their propaganda machine instead of actually coming up with ideas to make this country better.

When have we turned on party leaders unjustly? If one of our leaders messes up in a very damaging, dishonest or possibly treasonous way.... we get rid of them. We're not the Democrats, who keep the same dirtbags regardless of their crimes. Look at Clinton, revered by the Democrats even though he was a crook. Look at Kennedy (Ted). Look at Byrd.
The Republicans will get rid of or sidestep somebody who damages the party... Lott being the most prominent example. DeLay will be next.

 

[Adam's Apple]

the unwavering support for an unethical, and yes nato..possibly treasonous, individual is astounding. but by all means, do and say anything you can to prevent any embarrasment for the party.

makes me sick.

In the allegations lodged against DeLay, I just don't see that he has done anything that any other politician--Democrat or Republican--has not done at one time or another during his/her career. After all, he is a professional politician. All these allegations against DeLay fall into the "gotcha" realm of politics. DeLay is a staunch, practicing Christian, so I doubt that he would betray Christian ethics.

Everyone knows that laws were broken with regularity during the Clinton Administration, even by Clinton himself, and the Dems stood firmly behind it all. So to quote you, Smarter, "the unwavering support for an unethical and, yes, possibly treasonous, individual is astounding, but by all means, do and say anthing you can to prevent any embarrassment for the party." That's exactly what the Dems did during the Clinton Administration.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

In the allegations lodged against DeLay, I just don't see that he has done anything that any other politician--Democrat or Republican--has not done at one time or another during his/her career. After all, he is a professional politician. All these allegations against DeLay fall into the "gotcha" realm of politics. DeLay is a staunch, practicing Christian, so I doubt that he would betray Christian ethics.

many people do that everyday. just look to the catholic molestation scandal.

Everyone knows that laws were broken with regularity during the Clinton Administration, even by Clinton himself, and the Dems stood firmly behind it all. So to quote you, Smarter, "the unwavering support for an unethical and, yes, possibly treasonous, individual is astounding, but by all means, do and say anthing you can to prevent any embarrassment for the party." That's exactly what the Dems did during the Clinton Administration.

And I've busted their balls for it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

This is a bunch of overblown crap. This is the type of crap all politicians do. We should evaluate politicians on policy achievements.

 

[dilloduck]

This is a bunch of overblown crap. This is the type of crap all politicians do. We should evaluate politicians on policy achievements.

Agreed--dems just looking for the next victim to demonize and finding a media willing to help them. What a surprise!

 

[SmarterThanYou]

This is a bunch of overblown crap. This is the type of crap all politicians do. We should evaluate politicians on policy achievements.

yeah, screw all the wrong shit they do. Just judge em on the good stuff.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

yeah, screw all the wrong shit they do. Just judge em on the good stuff.

Not exactly. The shit all politicians do cancels out. At least republicans advocate national security and economic growth, instead of terrorist appeasement and onerous taxation.

 

[menewa]

DeLay's ethics, or lack thereof, notwithstanding, I have to say that I believe you're well off the mark with your conclusion regarding our interference in the Balkans. I get the impression from your posts that you think that the USA is the High Sheriff of the World and that we should go charging in wherever and whenever some atrocity is being committed. Personally, I don't agree even a little bit.

The US should step in when events threaten our national security interests. We should NOT interfere simply because there is a conflict in some backwater of the world. We should not go running off to some pesthole simply because faction A is murdering faction B. Kosovo was such a situation. Milosovich's actions, while reprehensible, did nothing to threaten our safety or our security. If France, Spain, Germany et al weren't sufficiently concerned to get involved with something going on in their own back yard, why the hell do you think that American lives should be lost in a cause which has no bearing on us? And please let's not go down the path "because it's the moral and ethical thing to do". Maybe it is, but how many American lives is such a cause worth. In my opinion - zero. Besides, Slick Willie didn't get us into that scrap because if was the morally upright thing to do. He got us into that to distract from the aaah - "domestic" problems he was having at the time.

So if folks in the middle east, or in Africa, or the Balkans, or the Basque region of Spain, or Kurdish separatists in Iraq, want to fight it out with their neighbors - fine. Let them go at it. Who are we to interfere with their determination to murder one another? The cold, hard fact is this - No matter how hard we may try, no matter how many American lives we may sacrifice, we will NEVER prevent the mayhem caused by tribalism in the world. We will NEVER prevent people killing each other who are determined to find a way to do exactly that.

Guess what? No Americans casualities even occurred in that war. But you don't care. You just hear the word Bill and your brain stops working.

 

[menewa]

Other than BS propaganda. I haven't seen a reason to take DeLay out of his position. I'm tired of seeing Democrats try to come up with some scheme to get rid of Republican leadership. If people have a problem with him, beat him at the ballot box. But as long as his constituents keep electing him or he is found guilty of some grave crime, i see no reason why he can't continue in the position he has been elected to. And quite frankly I'm tired of seeing Republican's who keep turning on party leaders when the Democrats put too much pressure on them. It just encourages the Democrats to continue their propaganda machine instead of actually coming up with ideas to make this country better.

Are you actually so influenced by Ann Coulter's juvenile columns that you believe any media that provides negative coverage on a republican is just liberal media bias? You must think repubs are infallible. You very much fail to understand the nature of all men.

 

[Avatar4321]

Are you actually so influenced by Ann Coulter's juvenile columns that you believe any media that provides negative coverage on a republican is just liberal media bias? You must think repubs are infallible. You very much fail to understand the nature of all men.

I hardly listen to or read Ann Coulter. While she may be entertaining and dead on issues, she is also very negative and i prefer to avoid that. Now, are you going to actually provide anything useful to this thread or just sit here bad mouthing moderators?

BTW Republicans aren't falliable. However, the left has tried to badmouth almost every Republican leader at some point with alot of lies. So why should i believe their crap about DeLay? They have been untrustworthy in the past, why should i start believing them now? Give me a good reason. If he is corrupt or evil, beat him at the ballot box in the arena of ideas.

 

[NATO AIR]

They want DeLay to answer the questions.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7453969/

Answer ethics questions, Santorum tells DeLay
Majority leader's travel, campaign finances at issue
The Associated Press
Updated: 3:44 p.m. ET April 10, 2005
WASHINGTON - The No. 3 Republican in the Senate said Sunday that embattled House Majority Leader Tom DeLay needs to answer questions about his ethics and “let the people then judge for themselves.”

Sen. Rick Santorum’s comments seem to reflect the nervousness among congressional Republicans about the fallout from the increased scrutiny into DeLay’s way of doing business. One of DeLay’s GOP colleagues in the House called him an “absolute embarrassment” and doubled DeLay would last as majority leader.

DeLay, R-Texas, has been dogged in recent months by reports of possible ethics violations. There have been questions about his overseas travel, campaign payments to family members and his connections to lobbyists who are under investigation.

“I think he has to come forward and lay out what he did and why he did it and let the people then judge for themselves,” said Santorum, chairman of the Senate Republican Conference.

“But from everything I’ve heard, again, from the comments and responding to those, is everything he’s done was according to the law,” Santorum told ABC’s “This Week.”

“Now you may not like some of the things he’s done,” Santorum said. “That’s for the people of his district to decide, whether they want to approve that kind of behavior or not.”

DeLay’s spokesman, Dan Allen, told The Associated Press on Sunday that the congressman “looks forward to the opportunity of sitting down with the ethics committee chairman and ranking member to get the facts out and to dispel the fiction and innuendo that’s being launched at him by House Democrats and their liberal allies.”

The majority leader was admonished three times last year by that committee. The committee has been in limbo since March, when its five Democrats balked at adopting Republican-developed rules.

At a town hall meeting Saturday in Greenwich, Conn., GOP Rep. Christopher Shays told constituents that he did not think DeLay “is going to survive.”
CONTINUE ARTICLE @ LINK