the science of creation

[scruffy]

I will throw a bone to the creationists.

I don't yet know if it's a real bone, it's too early to decide.

But this bone comes with a concrete physical theory, which means it can be tested experimentally.

So let's get real about this creation stuff.

The first question is WHAT is being created?

It isn't energy. Physics tells us that energy is conserved. It's neither created nor destroyed.

What we're looking for is an "irreversible" process, where something is created but never destroyed.

We have a clue. There is something in physics that pretty much everyone agrees on - it's the Second Law of Thermodynamics. (The first law is that energy is conserved).

The Second Law states the "entropy always increases". (I'm paraphrasing). Something is being created. What is it?

The answer is: INFORMATION.

Time for a little physics. Quantum mechanics tells us that quanta are fundamentally in an indeterminate state. They're in a "superposition", you can't really tell what state they're in.

But once we make a MEASUREMENT, the indeterminate state "collapses", resulting in one and only one outcome. What is that outcome? It is INFORMATION. The measurement has resulted in the creation of new information. We now know something we didn't know before.

The physics is a lot deeper than this, but let's just stop here. We can make an observation though: the creation of information is an IRREVERSIBLE process.

Information is the life force. There is no life without information.

I'll offer this view of quantum information theory for your consideration: the Hilbert cube.

Hilbert cube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quantum mechanics is formulated in "Hilbert space", which is an infinite set of coordinates that describe wave functions. The amazing thing is, that the infinite Hilbert space is topologically equivalent to the open interval (0,1). The mathematician Cantor showed that these two spaces have the same cardinality, and that there is a direct one-to-one mapping between them.

So now, a challenge to the creationists: design an experiment to prove that something is being created.

I give you this clue: a measurement results in the creation of information. Locally, in the system consisting of the observer and that which is being observed.

Here's another clue, from the Wiki page:

"The compactness of the Hilbert cube can ... be proved without the axiom of choice by constructing a continuous function from the ... Cantor set onto the Hilbert cube".

The Cantor set and the Hilbert cube are both "nowhere dense". Yet they are topologically compact.

Okay creationists, ball's in your court. I've done what I can to help you.

Now, design the experiment. If it works, you might get a Nobel prize.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I will throw a bone to the creationists.

I don't yet know if it's a real bone, it's too early to decide.

But this bone comes with a concrete physical theory, which means it can be tested experimentally.

So let's get real about this creation stuff.

The first question is WHAT is being created?

It isn't energy. Physics tells us that energy is conserved. It's neither created nor destroyed.

I'm afraid this is incorrect, misleading. Science does not "tell us" anything "is conserved", we - human minds - have declared that the conservation laws are laws, nothing in science proves that a law is actually a law. Science (which relies on inductive reasoning not deductive logic) extrapolates specific cases to the general case.

What we're looking for is an "irreversible" process, where something is created but never destroyed.

We have a clue. There is something in physics that pretty much everyone agrees on - it's the Second Law of Thermodynamics. (The first law is that energy is conserved).

The Second Law states the "entropy always increases". (I'm paraphrasing). Something is being created. What is it?

The answer is: INFORMATION.

Incidentally, increasing entropy is in fact the destruction, loss of information not its creation.

Time for a little physics. Quantum mechanics tells us that quanta are fundamentally in an indeterminate state. They're in a "superposition", you can't really tell what state they're in.

But once we make a MEASUREMENT, the indeterminate state "collapses", resulting in one and only one outcome. What is that outcome? It is INFORMATION. The measurement has resulted in the creation of new information. We now know something we didn't know before.

The physics is a lot deeper than this, but let's just stop here. We can make an observation though: the creation of information is an IRREVERSIBLE process.

Information is the life force. There is no life without information.

I'll offer this view of quantum information theory for your consideration: the Hilbert cube.

Hilbert cube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quantum mechanics is formulated in "Hilbert space", which is an infinite set of coordinates that describe wave functions. The amazing thing is, that the infinite Hilbert space is topologically equivalent to the open interval (0,1). The mathematician Cantor showed that these two spaces have the same cardinality, and that there is a direct one-to-one mapping between them.

So now, a challenge to the creationists: design an experiment to prove that something is being created.

That's a scientific endeavor, why have you assumed that "creation" is a consequence of laws? By definition creation is not a deterministic process, it is not governed by or subject to material laws, it cannot be predicted, it cannot be reduced and so cannot be described scientifically because science is always an exercise in reductionism.

I give you this clue: a measurement results in the creation of information. Locally, in the system consisting of the observer and that which is being observed.

Here's another clue, from the Wiki page:

"The compactness of the Hilbert cube can ... be proved without the axiom of choice by constructing a continuous function from the ... Cantor set onto the Hilbert cube".

The Cantor set and the Hilbert cube are both "nowhere dense". Yet they are topologically compact.

Okay creationists, ball's in your court. I've done what I can to help you.

Now, design the experiment. If it works, you might get a Nobel prize.

You've fallen into the same trap most devotees of scientism fall into, namely the unstated assumption that all questions about the natural world are scientific questions but that's not the case. Science has utility ONLY in allowing us to model and predict outcomes of experiments, future state of an EXISTING material system.

Science has no application beyond explaining the behavior of what already has been created.

You are asking philosophical and metaphysical questions and demanding material answers, that's a huge epistemological error.

It's like demanding we express irrational numbers as integer ratios, it is self defeating, it fundamentally misunderstands the problem domain.

Just as one cannot express an irrational number as an integer ratio, one cannot answer a metaphysical question in terms of the physical.

You believe in scientism (or so it seems) and therefore are unable to accept or perceive anything other than the material.

I encourage everyone reading this to do some research on question that are outside of science, there are many such questions, here's one, modelled after the question posed above by scruffy

devise an experiment that shows whether or not I will have any awareness after being shot through the head and killed

After thousands and thousands of years and billions of lives lived, we have absolutely no idea what the answer is to this question nor can science help us in any way.

 

[Oddball]

 

[scruffy]

Science.

Do the science.

Design an experiment.

You know the rules: repeatable and independently verifiable.

Look - quantum mechanics is really easy. You have two things: possibilities and probabilities.

Every possibility has a probability attached to it. A measurement turns a possibility into real information.

There is conservation of information globally. Which means, any local increase in information results in a decrease somewhere else. The decrease is manifested in the form of entropy.

You take it from there.

 

[Oddball]

View attachment 1012601

Science.

Do the science.

Design an experiment.

You know the rules: repeatable and independently verifiable.

Look - quantum mechanics is really easy. You have two things: possibilities and probabilities.

Every possibility has a probability attached to it. A measurement turns a possibility into real information.

There is conservation of information globally. Which means, any local increase in information results in a decrease somewhere else. The decrease is manifested in the form of entropy.

You take it from there.

Quantum mechanics are so fleeting and bizarre that quantum physicists can barely comprehend them....They certainly can't be boiled down to a cheesy linear graph stuck in this dimension.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

View attachment 1012601

Science.

Do the science.

Design an experiment.

You know the rules: repeatable and independently verifiable.

Look - quantum mechanics is really easy. You have two things: possibilities and probabilities.

Every possibility has a probability attached to it. A measurement turns a possibility into real information.

There is conservation of information globally. Which means, any local increase in information results in a decrease somewhere else. The decrease is manifested in the form of entropy.

You take it from there.

That image

is taken from here:



At least the site author understands that he's dealing with philosophy even if the site itself suggests he's a bit of a crank.

 

[scruffy]

Quantum mechanics is so fleeting and bizarre that quantum physicists can barely comprehend them....They certainly can't be boiled down to a cheesy linear graph stuck in this dimension.

The mechanics are complex, yes.

The principle is easy. What we call "the future" consists of possibilities. Physicists call them "wave functions". Wave functions attach probabilities to every possibility.

What they call a "collapse", is a possibility changing into actual information. In physics they call it a measurement. In brains we call it T=0.

The idea of a "creator" means information that exists independently of space and time. I tried to show you a way this could be accessed, experimentally.

The thread talks of "gaps" - the more important gaps are the ones we find in the Cantor space. The gaps there, can house information.

In music there is a beautiful expression that summarizes the principle: "God is in the space between the notes".

 

[Oddball]

The idea of a "creator" means information that exists independently of space and time. I tried to show you a way this could be accessed, experimentally.

Space and time are the concepts of three dimensional "reality"....There is no time in QM.

 

[Nobody911]

I will throw a bone to the creationists.

I don't yet know if it's a real bone, it's too early to decide.

But this bone comes with a concrete physical theory, which means it can be tested experimentally.

So let's get real about this creation stuff.

The first question is WHAT is being created?

It isn't energy. Physics tells us that energy is conserved. It's neither created nor destroyed.

What we're looking for is an "irreversible" process, where something is created but never destroyed.

We have a clue. There is something in physics that pretty much everyone agrees on - it's the Second Law of Thermodynamics. (The first law is that energy is conserved).

The Second Law states the "entropy always increases". (I'm paraphrasing). Something is being created. What is it?

The answer is: INFORMATION.

Time for a little physics. Quantum mechanics tells us that quanta are fundamentally in an indeterminate state. They're in a "superposition", you can't really tell what state they're in.

But once we make a MEASUREMENT, the indeterminate state "collapses", resulting in one and only one outcome. What is that outcome? It is INFORMATION. The measurement has resulted in the creation of new information. We now know something we didn't know before.

The physics is a lot deeper than this, but let's just stop here. We can make an observation though: the creation of information is an IRREVERSIBLE process.

Information is the life force. There is no life without information.

I'll offer this view of quantum information theory for your consideration: the Hilbert cube.

Hilbert cube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quantum mechanics is formulated in "Hilbert space", which is an infinite set of coordinates that describe wave functions. The amazing thing is, that the infinite Hilbert space is topologically equivalent to the open interval (0,1). The mathematician Cantor showed that these two spaces have the same cardinality, and that there is a direct one-to-one mapping between them.

So now, a challenge to the creationists: design an experiment to prove that something is being created.

I give you this clue: a measurement results in the creation of information. Locally, in the system consisting of the observer and that which is being observed.

Here's another clue, from the Wiki page:

"The compactness of the Hilbert cube can ... be proved without the axiom of choice by constructing a continuous function from the ... Cantor set onto the Hilbert cube".

The Cantor set and the Hilbert cube are both "nowhere dense". Yet they are topologically compact.

Okay creationists, ball's in your court. I've done what I can to help you.

Now, design the experiment. If it works, you might get a Nobel prize.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system( or universe )can never decrease over time, and tends to increase until it reaches a maximum.

In simpler terms, it describes the direction in which processes occur naturally, indicating that systems tend to move towards a state of greater disorder or randomness.

The law implies that heat energy will naturally flow from a warmer object to a cooler one, and that energy transfer processes tend to be irreversible. It also sets limits on the efficiency of heat engines, stating that no engine can convert heat into work with 100% efficiency.

Overall, the second law of thermodynamics is crucial for understanding the behavior of energy and matter in physical systems, helping to explain phenomena such as why ice melts in a warm room or why a cup of hot coffee eventually cools down. It plays a fundamental role in many branches of science and engineering, influencing fields as diverse as chemistry, biology, and cosmology.

my simple questions here. isolated or open universe? any proof? only God knows?

 

[scruffy]

Space and time are the concepts of three dimensional "reality"....There is no time in QM.

Not really true.

What you mean to say is time is "reversible" in QM.

A measurement, however, is irreversible. That is where we get the "arrow" of time we see in thermodynamics.

 

[scruffy]

.
my simple questions here. isolated or open universe? any proof? only God knows?

Don't know. Yet.

That's why I'm encouraging you to think of experiments.

And why I'm interested in topological mappings.

It seems to me we can "infer" certain things from observable statistics. The "measures" in probability spaces sometimes map 1-to-1.

In the same way you can "lift" a manifold in differential geometry, we should be able to "lift" a stochastic manifold. The math is weird and complicated, I'm trying to wrap my mind around it, it'll take a while.

Meanwhile though, we can think of experiments. Some of them could even be done on a computer. It would require a detailed understanding of how the shapes map to accessible (binary) trees.

So far I'm trying to survey where the disconnects are, like the idea that every time you gain or lose a piece of information, the dimensionality of the phase space changes. That's not an easy thing to deal with, so far I haven't found a better way than just set theory.

 

[scruffy]

Here's a clue.

You can change the entropy picture in two ways: by increasing or decreasing the number or arrangement of elements, and by increasing or decreasing the number of available paths.

So look at a measurement, which creates information locally. The math says there has to be a decrease somewhere else, the entropy is somehow "radiated away". Where does it go?

One theory is, it eventually ends up as expansion of the universe, which translates into an increase in the number of available paths.