The reason why we have the most expensive healthcare in the world

[Harry Dresden]

There is this thing call google.....

But you never learned to use it.

The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.

The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.

and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

Every system has problems, and the WSJ is a Republican rag.

You realize you are a puppet for corporate lobbyists that are ripping us off, don't you?

oh Christ.....you want another source dipshit?.....i saw a bunch with the same topic....France is having a hard time paying for their Health Care System....why dont you come up with one saying they are not....

 

[DiamondDave]

Three reasons Hc costs are getting beyond this system (or any system's) ability to pay

1. Aging population --most HC dollars are spent in declining years

2. Better, but more expensive HC -- a double whammy...not only does HC for the older cost more, but there's more old people to keep going longer, too.

3. The enormous rise in HC providers profits and incomes in comparison to what the rest of society is making.

There's jackshit we can do about 1 and 2, folks, until we start rationing HC, of course.

#3?

Well we can TRY to convince HC providers to take less money, but they're not going to go into that night gently.

This is NOT a partisan problem, folks, this is a REAL problem coming from reality of the world and it is not stemming from politics.

Blaming the Rs or the Ds for this real world development is just ignorant.

Yep... because you need to have government dictate exactly how much is too much for someone to make in profit... so you can justify your wealth redistribution mantra and feel generous with the monies of others

 

[editec]

Bern80 opines:

#3 yes the cost of care is, but I disagree with the reason. One of the biggest myths in this whole debate is premiums are so high because we are padding the wallets of executives. Yet report after report shows that insurance companies typically make profits in the single digits as a percentage. That's pretty low for any industry.

I didn't say insruance executives, Bern.

I was speaking generally about the whole HC industry, Mds, Nurses, technicians, insurance execs, hospital managment PLUS the higher costs of implementing HC that stems from defensive medicine, too.

But when the percentage of GDP spend on all HC goes from 4% to 18% in one man's lifetinme?

Then for sure, the people in that industry are doing better (relative to everbody else) than the people in that industry were doing a generation ago.

And all it really takes to test that theory is to look at the cars in the MD parking lot to know that what I'm saying (about how rewards for the HC industry have changed)

Did you know, Bern, that medical doctors used to be one of (if not THE) lowest paid profession in America? (around the 30s)

Now they are the highest paid professionals.

Somebody had to pay for that change.

In fact everybody is.

 

[Bern80]

Bern80 opines:

#3 yes the cost of care is, but I disagree with the reason. One of the biggest myths in this whole debate is premiums are so high because we are padding the wallets of executives. Yet report after report shows that insurance companies typically make profits in the single digits as a percentage. That's pretty low for any industry.

I didn't say insruance executives, Bern.

I was speaking generally about the whole HC industry, Mds, Nurses, technicians, insurance execs, hospital managment PLUS the higher costs of implementing HC that stems from defensive medicine, too.

But when the percentage of GDP spend on all HC goes from 4% to 18% in one man's lifetinme?

Then for sure, the people in that industry are doing better (relative to everbody else) than the people in that industry were doing a generation ago.

And all it really takes to test that theory is to look at the cars in the MD parking lot to know that what I'm saying (about how rewards for the HC industry have changed)

Did you know, Bern, that medical doctors used to be one of (if not THE) lowest paid profession in America? (around the 30s)

Now they are the highest paid professionals.

Somebody had to pay for that change.

In fact everybody is.

There are a lot of reasons for that. And not all of them are unwaranted. First I would imagine there wasn't the level specialization a lifetime ago as there is now. Generally the more specific the specialty the more the doc is gonna get paid. That's not unfair or anything, it's simple economics. The more rare the skill, assuming it's in demand. the more valuable it is and the more it will cost. True story: I had a piece of skin cancer taken off my eye lid. One guy cut it off and another specialist, who all he does is reconcstructive surgery on eye lids, put it back together. That's when I first realized the level of specialization we have gotten to in health care.

And I did realize you probably weren't taking about the cost of premiums per se, but that is a big part of the equation again because of the nature of the transaction. As I said before you don't have any bargaining power when it comes to the cost of services, so there is no incentive on the part of the service provider to lower their fees. The other reality is on some level any business can only charge what people can actually afford. The problem is an insurance company can afford a lot more than you can so agan HC providers have little incentive to lower the cost of services.

I think the dynamic of the transaction needs to be changed such that the cost of health care has greater direct cost to you the actual consumer. What I mean by that are things like greater customization of health care plans, greater competetion between insurance providers, greater options and ease for people to pay for what they want out of pocket via pre-tax FSA's and the like. THEN we all might find out what the real market value of these services are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I note with interest that not a single person wishes to go to the effort of explaining to anyone what they mean by "most expensive", preferring to simply keep talking past each other and accomplishing nothing. I note with further interest that each person seems to be talking about a different definition of "most expensive", and many people are talking about more than one definition at a time.

And then we wonder why we can't have productive debates on the issues in this country.

 

[Bern80]

I note with interest that not a single person wishes to go to the effort of explaining to anyone what they mean by "most expensive", preferring to simply keep talking past each other and accomplishing nothing. I note with further interest that each person seems to be talking about a different definition of "most expensive", and many people are talking about more than one definition at a time.

And then we wonder why we can't have productive debates on the issues in this country.

And even if you could agree that still assumes that simply making things cheap for the consumer is going to make for the greatest health care system ever. I think cost is a major part of the problem, but I dislike how the politicians seem to think if we just make things cheaper everything will be just great.

 

[GWV5903]

No one industry influences the cost of everything more than lawyers and HC is their number one target....

They are consistently in the top 2 for campaign contributions, how long does it take for us to realize they are the core to this problem? Biden's own words state that we see a 4% annual increase in HC cost, yet everyone try's to say Tort Reform would only curb 1% of cost, could that be taken to be 25%??

We continue to be their slaves, talk about cars in the parking lot, how do they out contribute everyone else besides Seniors???

Lawyers / Law Firms: Long-Term Contribution Trends | OpenSecrets

 

[Cecilie1200]

I note with interest that not a single person wishes to go to the effort of explaining to anyone what they mean by "most expensive", preferring to simply keep talking past each other and accomplishing nothing. I note with further interest that each person seems to be talking about a different definition of "most expensive", and many people are talking about more than one definition at a time.

And then we wonder why we can't have productive debates on the issues in this country.

And even if you could agree that still assumes that simply making things cheap for the consumer is going to make for the greatest health care system ever. I think cost is a major part of the problem, but I dislike how the politicians seem to think if we just make things cheaper everything will be just great.

That is EXACTLY why one needs to define precisely what one is talking about: you can't cut through the bulshit of the proposed "solutions" if you're not sure what the problem is, or if there even IS a problem.

 

[Political Junky]

I note with interest that not a single person wishes to go to the effort of explaining to anyone what they mean by "most expensive", preferring to simply keep talking past each other and accomplishing nothing. I note with further interest that each person seems to be talking about a different definition of "most expensive", and many people are talking about more than one definition at a time.

And then we wonder why we can't have productive debates on the issues in this country.

And even if you could agree that still assumes that simply making things cheap for the consumer is going to make for the greatest health care system ever. I think cost is a major part of the problem, but I dislike how the politicians seem to think if we just make things cheaper everything will be just great.

Sad, that you both don't seem to know what "most expensive" means.
It's OK with you that so much of your insurance payments go to pay $mulitmillion salaries, private jets, etc.?
It's illegal for health insurance to make a profit in almost all industrial nations.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I note with interest that not a single person wishes to go to the effort of explaining to anyone what they mean by "most expensive", preferring to simply keep talking past each other and accomplishing nothing. I note with further interest that each person seems to be talking about a different definition of "most expensive", and many people are talking about more than one definition at a time.

And then we wonder why we can't have productive debates on the issues in this country.

And even if you could agree that still assumes that simply making things cheap for the consumer is going to make for the greatest health care system ever. I think cost is a major part of the problem, but I dislike how the politicians seem to think if we just make things cheaper everything will be just great.

Sad, that you both don't seem to know what "most expensive" means.
It's OK with you that so much of your insurance payments go to pay $mulitmillion salaries, private jets, etc.?
It's illegal for health insurance to make a profit in almost all industrial nations.

Oh, spare me your pretense of "There's only one, universal thing that is EVER meant by this phrase" bullshit. Any reasonably literate person - which I realize doesn't exactly include you - can look at this thread and see that at least three different things are being referenced by that phrase at different moments, and occasionally at the same time.

And you can definitely spare me your quick little jump over clear, logical, precise definition to emotional appeals and buzzwords that are supposed to get us all fired up with class envy and hatred of your target du jour. That shit doesn't work on me even when it isn't employed by someone I would automatically disagree with simply because I think he's a dishonest, disingenuous dumbass and a piss-poor excuse for an intelligent human being.

See me when you have both the balls and the brains to conduct an honest and clear debate. I won't hold my breath waiting for that day.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Sad, that you both don't seem to know what "most expensive" means.
It's OK with you that so much of your insurance payments go to pay $mulitmillion salaries, private jets, etc.?
It's illegal for health insurance to make a profit in almost all industrial nations.

so Pj..... this great plan they are trying to pass....will they have a list of Conditions that they will not cover.....because they are too expensive?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Sad, that you both don't seem to know what "most expensive" means.
It's OK with you that so much of your insurance payments go to pay $mulitmillion salaries, private jets, etc.?
It's illegal for health insurance to make a profit in almost all industrial nations.

so Pj..... this great plan they are trying to pass....will they have a list of Conditions that they will not cover.....because they are too expensive?....

figures Junky would not answer this.....

 

[Christopher]

For every member of Congress, there were eight lobbyists working to influence health care reform last year, according to research by The Center for Public Integrity.

That's about 4,525 total lobbyists from 1,750 companies that include 207 hospitals, 105 insurance companies and 85 manufacturing companies.

The biggest group by far were the trade and advocacy organizations, which accounted for a whopping 745 companies lobbying for their own vision of health care in the US.

Lobbying run amok: Eight health care lobbyists for every member of Congress | Raw Story

Assuming you are correct (which is very doubtful) and this is the only or main reason that health insurance costs are high: would increasing the government control and power over the health care industry actually decrease the number of lobbyists? I think it will only increase lobbyists.

 

[Cecilie1200]

For every member of Congress, there were eight lobbyists working to influence health care reform last year, according to research by The Center for Public Integrity.

That's about 4,525 total lobbyists from 1,750 companies that include 207 hospitals, 105 insurance companies and 85 manufacturing companies.

The biggest group by far were the trade and advocacy organizations, which accounted for a whopping 745 companies lobbying for their own vision of health care in the US.

Lobbying run amok: Eight health care lobbyists for every member of Congress | Raw Story

Assuming you are correct (which is very doubtful) and this is the only or main reason that health insurance costs are high: would increasing the government control and power over the health care industry actually decrease the number of lobbyists? I think it will only increase lobbyists.

Bingo! The only meaningful way to take the influence of money out of politics is to make politicians worth considerably less by reducing the amount of tax dollars they control.

 

[Avatar4321]

Every system has problems, and the WSJ is a Republican rag.

You realize you are a puppet for corporate lobbyists that are ripping us off, don't you?

So why are we changing from a system with problems to an expensive system with more problems?

Just admit it, government cant solve the problem. They just make it worse.

And you still havent provided any Constitutional justification for it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Horseshit.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because there are cost savings inherent in such a system. Our system is bloated, unfair, and expensive.

No, where they pay less it's because they have passed laws prohibitting pharmaceutical companies from charging them the full price for services or technological companies for the full price of their equipment. Which means they have to make up the costs some where else.

Where do you think that somewhere else is? It's here. We have artificially high prices for medications and equipment because the rest of the world won't pay their fair share for it. So what do you think will happen when we tell them they can't recoup their losses in the United States?

Oh yeah, they will go out of business or stop production. because there is no point to working if you cant make a living and put food on the table.

So yeah, costs may go down. But then, more people dying, lower standard of living, poorer care. Doesnt seem worth the effort.

You get what you pay for.

 

[elvis]

Horseshit.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because there are cost savings inherent in such a system. Our system is bloated, unfair, and expensive.

No, where they pay less it's because they have passed laws prohibitting pharmaceutical companies from charging them the full price for services or technological companies for the full price of their equipment. Which means they have to make up the costs some where else.

Where do you think that somewhere else is? It's here. We have artificially high prices for medications and equipment because the rest of the world won't pay their fair share for it. So what do you think will happen when we tell them they can't recoup their losses in the United States?

Oh yeah, they will go out of business or stop production. because there is no point to working if you cant make a living and put food on the table.

So yeah, costs may go down. But then, more people dying, lower standard of living, poorer care. Doesnt seem worth the effort.

You get what you pay for.

if it's not socialism, chris isn't interested.

 

[frazzledgear]

For every member of Congress, there were eight lobbyists working to influence health care reform last year, according to research by The Center for Public Integrity.

That's about 4,525 total lobbyists from 1,750 companies that include 207 hospitals, 105 insurance companies and 85 manufacturing companies.

The biggest group by far were the trade and advocacy organizations, which accounted for a whopping 745 companies lobbying for their own vision of health care in the US.

Lobbying run amok: Eight health care lobbyists for every member of Congress | Raw Story

Unless government has taken all your money and left you with just $15 a week -the average net income of Cubans after their government gets done with them - then we don't have the most expensive health care system in the world. Not by a long shot. (And the Cubans aren't even allowed to access the top tier health care system THEY pay for -its reserved for party elites and TOURISTS. The Cuban citizens only have access to the bottom dregs where there is a constant shortage of medicines and supplies.)

Just because people with nationalized health care systems have their money confiscated by government first sure doesn't mean I have to pretend that doesn't represent part of their true health care costs. Then add that in with their out-of-pocket costs and you've got one hell of an expensive health care system. The European system is an unsustainable system. We already know that in this country and the people in those countries know it as well. Which is why I am still dumbfounded that so many people in this country STILL insist we go down that very same path of doom anyway. If you want to know what happens when a nation is faced with the undeniable reality they are on an unsustainable path and nearing collapse -take a good look at what's going on in Greece. People bred to be dependent slaves of government riot when faced with reality that government isn't the all-knowing, all-wise magical entity they were raised to believe it was and instead is just a bunch of PEOPLE claiming they can run your life better than you can and want to do it with a cookie cutter one-size-fits-all agenda. You'd think people would actually learn the lessons of history but that means actually teaching kids history in the first place instead of rewriting it.

The typical liberal ploy and one that Obama has been playing NON-STOP since taking office -is insisting the real enemies of this country are always fellow Americans. That is one tune I am sick of hearing Obama play but he will NEVER tire of it. Fueling the flames of class warfare isn't an American value -its a liberal one. And they do it because they believe it benefits THEM -not you. Using the power of government to confiscate the wealth from individuals and companies who created and earned it will never make YOU one cent richer. Not ever. It only makes those in power intent on exploiting that power and force of government -even more powerful. Which is really the whole point of the thing in the first place. Doesn't mean I have to join the line of cows who can't wait to be manipulated.