Silver Cat
Gold Member
Ok. Then the USA (and all other states) are evil, too. Actually Russia have much more reasons to invade Ukraine than the USA had to invade Iraq. Anyway, self-defense, even collective self-defense is not evil.
The members who live in Russia, I have a request for you.
- Thread starter Dalia
- Start date
Silver Cat
Gold Member
Do you want to say, that all Germans were Nazies back in 1944?
But the USA joined anti-Nazi coalition and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and soldiers. It wasn't evil. It was good.
Slade3200
Diamond Member
- Jan 13, 2016
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Yup, the USA has done plenty of evil stuff. Difference is I’m not acting like a dumb shit lying and making excuses for it like you’re doing for Russia.
Silver Cat
Gold Member
May be he is lying about the reasons. May be not. At least some reasons are pretty real. Anyway, lying is the essence of the policy. The USA were lying about nuclear weapon in Iraq, too.
What is really important - why the Russians consider war against Ukraine (with possible escalation to limited nuclear war in Europe or even all-out nuclear war against the USA) safer option than continuing the previous situation?
Silver Cat
Gold Member
I'm not saying that the Russians are nice guys. They are not (at least in American understanding). I'm saying that the Russians are rational-thinking guys. And their actions are result of their analysis of the situation.
Silver Cat
Gold Member
Do you really believe that all Ukrainian mineral resources worth more that they already lost because of the sanctions? It is, obviously, not about resources.
Slade3200
Diamond Member
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No war is not a safer option. What a crazy notion. And why would you excuse lies like that. When the USA lied about WMDs that was disgraceful and unacceptable. It should not be tolerated. Neither should Putins invasions and lies. It’s very simple
Slade3200
Diamond Member
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Immoral actions are not rational actions
Silver Cat
Gold Member
It depends on alternatives. For example, decision do not start the war on terror back in 2001 could cause new major terroristic attacks in 2002 or 2003. So, decision - "start the war" was considered as safer by American decision-makers. Same way, the decision to invade Iraq was calculated (good or bad - another question) and it was decided, that it is better to attack than not to attack.
War is a bad thing. Lie is a bad thing. But both war and lie are vitally necessary parts of our life. I don't know even one totally pacifistic or totally truthful society in the whole human history. Position: "Everyone is bad, and only I'm an immaculate dove of peace" may be nice at TV-show, but it is utterly useless in an actual war room. The Russians are bad, the Americans are bad, the Frenchmen are bad, the Ukrainians are bad. Human beings are "bad" because it is our nature. We are not talking about "how to became better". We are talking about "what we should do".
Some Russian reasons are pretty real, another are not proven yet.
We should not tolerate or not tolerate anyone behavior. We should try to understand why they behave that way, and not another.
Silver Cat
Gold Member
What would be more rational back in 1962:
1) Start the naval blockade of Cuba (actually - the act of war) and treat Cubans and Soviets with nuclear war or
2) Respect international law, freedom of sea trade, sovereignty of Cuba and their right to join any military alliances they want, and allow the Soviets to deliver all their missiles and attack the USA at spring of 1963.
AFAIK, suicide never was rational or moral choice.
Slade3200
Diamond Member
- Jan 13, 2016
- 71,393
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Just because something exists does not make it a vital necessity. It does not excuse evil and immorality. You can point to several things America has done in the past. None of it makes what Putin is doing OK. It is wrong and immoral and evil and should be stopped and punished. Simple as that
Slade3200
Diamond Member
- Jan 13, 2016
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A naval blockaid and sanctions are very different than invading a country and murdering citizens. Your comparisons are juvenile
- Thread starter
- #133
Don’t try to reverse the situation to your advantage by pretending that I am comparing the Hitler Nazis to your beloved and his war in Ukraine , he is the one who could be compare to Hitler, he has no valid excuses for going to slaughter those innocent people like i said he wan't to fill-up his pocket by stealing there natural resources and maybe a lot of you here don’t give a shit about seeing pictures of children in pain, that’s your problem if you have no heart.
That’s not who I am and i am not the only one, Thank God for that.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #134
Here again it is false, he came at the beginning before his invasion on TV to paraded with muscles swollen with mouth full of threats ( like the little man that he is) to said: that he did not care about sanctions because he had reservations for 3 years, it is rather that he knew that he would steal the goods ( Natural resources) of the neighbouring country.
I say again Stop taking us for fools.
That makes no sense at all. If I went to Times Square I doubt I could say anything about anyone that would get me arrested.If you did the same in BBC or RTE do you think you would be treated differently?
Ringo
Gold Member
Ringo
Gold Member
Russian representative in UN Dovgalenko speech:
What a staged extravaganza of malice, slander, bile and hypocrisy on the site of the leading humanitarian forum! What a parade of double standards and arrogance!
Anyone who has allowed themselves to demand something from us here should have moderated the fervor of moralizing. After the "democratic" bombings you have committed, you have "hands up to your elbows in blood." Unlike you, Russia has been, is, and will abide by international law, including international humanitarian law, and remains committed to its obligations at UNESCO.
In order to ensure the safety and preservation of Ukrainian heritage, including UNESCO World Heritage sites, as well as those included in the Preliminary List of candidate sites from the Russian Federation, the Russian "National Committee of the International Council for the Preservation of Monuments and Places of Interest (ICOMOS)" has transferred their coordinates to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. As we have already said, our military does not strike at civilian infrastructure.
To those who emotionally and eloquently described the sufferings of the Ukrainian people, I want to say - yes, it is, yes, these sufferings are terrible and, yes, part of the Ukrainian people has been living in basements and under bombing for eight years. And, yes, this is how they live in some countries for many years too. But you've always turned a blind eye to it. Are they, in your opinion, not people? And the dead children of Donbass, whose monument is installed on the Alley of Angels in Donetsk? Are their lives worthless? Among those who shout loudest about violations are EU countries that, in violation of their international obligations and directives, supply weapons and combatants to Ukraine. They're talking about freedom of speech here. After all, these countries have shut down all sources of alternative information and all Russian media on the territory of the EU by their arbitrary decision. And it was these countries that kept silent all these years about the existence of the "Peacemaker" website– a Ukrainian Nazi resource through which journalists were persecuted, and on which the word "liquidated" ("executed") was posted after their death.
Most of the speakers were juggling facts and unsubstantiated accusations. They did not provide a single reliable fact. The truth, as you know, is the first victim of any conflict.
For those who mentioned Babi Yar, I recommend watching a video by Israeli journalist Ron Ben-Isha, who showed that everything is intact . To those who mentioned the murdered "New York Times" journalist Brent Reno, I want to say that he died in Irpen at the hands of the ukrainian soldiers. His surviving colleague confirms this, and the "New York Times" has admitted that he is not their journalist.
I can list the facts for a long time, tell you who the Hitlerite henchmen S. Bandera and R. Shukhevych, elevated to the rank of national heroes of Ukraine, are - I urge you to compare the stripes of the "Azov" battalion and the Nazi division Das Reich, to find a few differences in the slogan "Ukraine is above all!" and "Deutschland über alles" and etc . But you won't listen to all this. Because, as one US president said: "Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch."
To all lovers of russian literature, who have not found a single word in support of russian culture and russian artists, who are persecuted in Europe today, I want to read one quote. "It has long been possible to predict that this rabid hatred, which has been kindled in the West against Russia for thirty years, stronger and stronger every year, will break loose someday. This moment has come. Russia was simply offered suicide, renunciation of the very basis of its existence, a solemn recognition that it is nothing else in the world as a wild and ugly phenomenon, as an evil that requires correction." (c) Fyodor Tyutchev. April 21, 1854.
What a staged extravaganza of malice, slander, bile and hypocrisy on the site of the leading humanitarian forum! What a parade of double standards and arrogance!
Anyone who has allowed themselves to demand something from us here should have moderated the fervor of moralizing. After the "democratic" bombings you have committed, you have "hands up to your elbows in blood." Unlike you, Russia has been, is, and will abide by international law, including international humanitarian law, and remains committed to its obligations at UNESCO.
In order to ensure the safety and preservation of Ukrainian heritage, including UNESCO World Heritage sites, as well as those included in the Preliminary List of candidate sites from the Russian Federation, the Russian "National Committee of the International Council for the Preservation of Monuments and Places of Interest (ICOMOS)" has transferred their coordinates to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. As we have already said, our military does not strike at civilian infrastructure.
To those who emotionally and eloquently described the sufferings of the Ukrainian people, I want to say - yes, it is, yes, these sufferings are terrible and, yes, part of the Ukrainian people has been living in basements and under bombing for eight years. And, yes, this is how they live in some countries for many years too. But you've always turned a blind eye to it. Are they, in your opinion, not people? And the dead children of Donbass, whose monument is installed on the Alley of Angels in Donetsk? Are their lives worthless? Among those who shout loudest about violations are EU countries that, in violation of their international obligations and directives, supply weapons and combatants to Ukraine. They're talking about freedom of speech here. After all, these countries have shut down all sources of alternative information and all Russian media on the territory of the EU by their arbitrary decision. And it was these countries that kept silent all these years about the existence of the "Peacemaker" website– a Ukrainian Nazi resource through which journalists were persecuted, and on which the word "liquidated" ("executed") was posted after their death.
Most of the speakers were juggling facts and unsubstantiated accusations. They did not provide a single reliable fact. The truth, as you know, is the first victim of any conflict.
For those who mentioned Babi Yar, I recommend watching a video by Israeli journalist Ron Ben-Isha, who showed that everything is intact . To those who mentioned the murdered "New York Times" journalist Brent Reno, I want to say that he died in Irpen at the hands of the ukrainian soldiers. His surviving colleague confirms this, and the "New York Times" has admitted that he is not their journalist.
I can list the facts for a long time, tell you who the Hitlerite henchmen S. Bandera and R. Shukhevych, elevated to the rank of national heroes of Ukraine, are - I urge you to compare the stripes of the "Azov" battalion and the Nazi division Das Reich, to find a few differences in the slogan "Ukraine is above all!" and "Deutschland über alles" and etc . But you won't listen to all this. Because, as one US president said: "Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch."
To all lovers of russian literature, who have not found a single word in support of russian culture and russian artists, who are persecuted in Europe today, I want to read one quote. "It has long been possible to predict that this rabid hatred, which has been kindled in the West against Russia for thirty years, stronger and stronger every year, will break loose someday. This moment has come. Russia was simply offered suicide, renunciation of the very basis of its existence, a solemn recognition that it is nothing else in the world as a wild and ugly phenomenon, as an evil that requires correction." (c) Fyodor Tyutchev. April 21, 1854.
AlexanderPK
Gold Member
- May 23, 2017
- 2,497
- 803
- 208
No need in taking, you already are.
Ringo
Gold Member
Your righteous indignation at Russia's actions is worth as much as Chikatilo's indignation of some of the mistreatment of cats in a cat shelter. You are hypocritical morons.
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