The dreaded gay-wedding-cake saga ends: bakers must pay 135 K

[Faun]

Okay, here's the first lesson, Daniel-san. You don't get to play victim when you've created your own problem.

Here's a list of things the Kleins could have done.

1) They could have baked the ******* cake.
2) They could have come up with some other excuse for not baking the cake that didn't involve hurling homophobic epitaths at their customer.
3) They could have refrained from orchestrating a hate campaign against this couple on social media.
4) They could have gotten out of the Wedding Cake Business altogether once it was clear that gay marriage was legal.

In short, they put themselves in the position they are in. NO one put them in it.

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

 

[Faun]

NOT when you open up a business. Then you follow secular law.

Well that's too bad for you. Because we are going do business, and we will not follow your secular laws on this matter.

So now what?

No, it's too bad for you, because you will be sued and probably go out of business. Then I suppose you would be here, crying. Waaa, the government won't allow me to discriminate against the people I don't like!!! *stomps feet, takes ball and goes home*

Translation: Waaaaa!!!!! Somebody doesn't agree with me so the Government needs to Make Them Think Like I Do, or DESTROY them. Waaaaa!!!!! I can't handle any viewpoints different than my own. Waaaaa!!!!!! I can't be bothered to find another bakery so Waaa!!!!! The Government should shut down the bakery that doesn't agree with me. Waaaaaa!!!!!

Hey, the point here is that government doesn't recognize discrimination as a religious custom or practice. In the eyes of the law, we are ALL Americans. Gay people are taxpaying American citizens, and you don't have any "right" to limit or restrict where they do business.

No, the point here is that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the proper Government Approved GroupThink will be beaten into submission.

You loons recognize NO INDIVIDUAL BOUNDARIES FOR OTHERS. So, it will be quite a spectacle of Karmic Justice when you offend the Protected Class du Jour, as will inevitably happen given the current trajectory.

Yes, violators will be beaten into submission just like Michael Brown was beaten into submission. In the end, the message us the same -- if you don't want the justice system to beat you into submission like they did Michael Brown, don't break the law and don't fight back illegally.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

Don't think so. The more people try stunts like this, the less control the fascists will have.

 

[boedicca]

Well that's too bad for you. Because we are going do business, and we will not follow your secular laws on this matter.

So now what?

No, it's too bad for you, because you will be sued and probably go out of business. Then I suppose you would be here, crying. Waaa, the government won't allow me to discriminate against the people I don't like!!! *stomps feet, takes ball and goes home*

Translation: Waaaaa!!!!! Somebody doesn't agree with me so the Government needs to Make Them Think Like I Do, or DESTROY them. Waaaaa!!!!! I can't handle any viewpoints different than my own. Waaaaa!!!!!! I can't be bothered to find another bakery so Waaa!!!!! The Government should shut down the bakery that doesn't agree with me. Waaaaaa!!!!!

Hey, the point here is that government doesn't recognize discrimination as a religious custom or practice. In the eyes of the law, we are ALL Americans. Gay people are taxpaying American citizens, and you don't have any "right" to limit or restrict where they do business.

No, the point here is that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the proper Government Approved GroupThink will be beaten into submission.

You loons recognize NO INDIVIDUAL BOUNDARIES FOR OTHERS. So, it will be quite a spectacle of Karmic Justice when you offend the Protected Class du Jour, as will inevitably happen given the current trajectory.

Yes, violators will be beaten into submission just like Michael Brown was beaten into submission. In the end, the message us the same -- if you don't want the justice system to beat you into submission like they did Michael Brown, don't break the law and don't fight back illegally.

Michael Brown wasn't beaten into submission, you babbling fool. He attacked a police officer.

 

[Faun]

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

Don't think so. The more people try stunts like this, the less control the fascists will have.

You're too stupid for words. The law is not fascist and you clearly don't understand what fascism is. And the law doesn't ease up the more people commit crimes.

 

[Faun]

No, it's too bad for you, because you will be sued and probably go out of business. Then I suppose you would be here, crying. Waaa, the government won't allow me to discriminate against the people I don't like!!! *stomps feet, takes ball and goes home*

Translation: Waaaaa!!!!! Somebody doesn't agree with me so the Government needs to Make Them Think Like I Do, or DESTROY them. Waaaaa!!!!! I can't handle any viewpoints different than my own. Waaaaa!!!!!! I can't be bothered to find another bakery so Waaa!!!!! The Government should shut down the bakery that doesn't agree with me. Waaaaaa!!!!!

Hey, the point here is that government doesn't recognize discrimination as a religious custom or practice. In the eyes of the law, we are ALL Americans. Gay people are taxpaying American citizens, and you don't have any "right" to limit or restrict where they do business.

No, the point here is that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the proper Government Approved GroupThink will be beaten into submission.

You loons recognize NO INDIVIDUAL BOUNDARIES FOR OTHERS. So, it will be quite a spectacle of Karmic Justice when you offend the Protected Class du Jour, as will inevitably happen given the current trajectory.

Yes, violators will be beaten into submission just like Michael Brown was beaten into submission. In the end, the message us the same -- if you don't want the justice system to beat you into submission like they did Michael Brown, don't break the law and don't fight back illegally.

Michael Brown wasn't beaten into submission, you babbling fool. He attacked a police officer.

It's a metaphor, ya shvantz. In case you don't understand the point ... you break the law -- and the law doesn't **** around. You wanna play fight back illegally? You're gonna lose. i.e., get beaten into submission.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

What violates my beliefs is between me, my Bible, my Church, and G-d.

Not some random pagan that thinks he can tell me what my faith is.

Pagan: "Your Bible is wrong, and made up, and your god is a myth.... and you are a hypocrite because I've read your Bible and you are not following it!"

Christian: "Let me get this straight.... You are mad and calling me a hypocrite, because I have not followed your private interpretation of a book you think is full of errors, completely made up, about a god you deny exists?"

Am I the only one that finds that funny?

Here... Look up this phrase "Credibility gap"

What makes you think your interpretation is any better?

Doesn't matter. You are a pagan. I couldn't possibly care less what you think about my faith. On a list of authority about Christian faith, you don't even exist.

If a Christian preacher were to talk to me, I'd have to consider it. You? I just laugh. Leave a smiley face and move on!

Jesus Christ as god on Earth and the trinity. Are these things that have been normal part of Christianity since the beginning?

Yes.

No. There were many beliefs in the first 300-400 years of Christianity regarding Jesus and the so-called 'trinity'. Many didn't believe this at all. Many in the church thought Jesus was just a human that spoke well.

Roman emporer Constantine, in 325 AD (the Council of Nicea), gathered together Bishops from around the Roman empire because there were so many varying beliefs on whether Jesus was the 'son of god' or just a man and many other questions regarding deity re Jesus.

These Bishops then VOTED on what would be Christian dogma, i.e. that Jesus would be thought of as deity rather than a man. It was rule of the majority. It had nothing to do with 'godly inspiration'. The views of the minority were crushed and expelled.

It would be similar to Bishops from Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Prebyterians, Calvinists and every other Christian sect having a meeting and voting on which single sect would be the winner and be taught as the official dogma of the church. The losers views discarded as rubbish. It was worse then because different sects would actually war on each other for their differing beliefs. More like what we see in the split in Islam in the middle east today.

Made absolute law by a Roman emporer, voted on by human beings. It wasn't divinely inspired. It was human politics, and the losers beliefs were crushed.

Add to this that there were many books that were left out of the bible. If they are inspired by god, what would you call it when humans reject god's word and decide what is and isn't contained in the bible?

This is what you believe is rock solid and has always been. It hasn't. Christianity is a mess of political forcing and compromise all along the way, as are all religions.

Many atheists know more about your religion than you ever will.

And I'm not a pagan, that seems to be your pet word for 'other'. I'm an agnostic.

The mistake you make is a common one, assuming that when the synods settle an issue, they are inventing doctrine. The synod of Nicea in 325, in battling the Arian heresies, adapted earlier creeds to specify the triune nature God in the new Nicene Creed. It was later adapted amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381. This by the way gave way to the movement to establish an official canon of Scripture around 392 at the Councils of Rome and Hippo.

And to lay scandal on the universal church for settling doctrinal disputes is to not understand what universal means. But more central to this discussion, belief in Jesus as divine goes all the way back to the beginning, to the Apostles one of which was Thomas who called Jesus, "My Lord and my God". There was no doubt they understood his divine nature as Jesus identified himself in a distinct manner, "Before Abraham was, I am." that God used to identify himself to his people through Moses. Christians were very unified in the belief in the divine nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but when heresies crept into the Church, an official clarification was warranted. In this there is no scandal.

 

[featherlite]

Translation: Waaaaa!!!!! Somebody doesn't agree with me so the Government needs to Make Them Think Like I Do, or DESTROY them. Waaaaa!!!!! I can't handle any viewpoints different than my own. Waaaaa!!!!!! I can't be bothered to find another bakery so Waaa!!!!! The Government should shut down the bakery that doesn't agree with me. Waaaaaa!!!!!

Hey, the point here is that government doesn't recognize discrimination as a religious custom or practice. In the eyes of the law, we are ALL Americans. Gay people are taxpaying American citizens, and you don't have any "right" to limit or restrict where they do business.

No, the point here is that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the proper Government Approved GroupThink will be beaten into submission.

You loons recognize NO INDIVIDUAL BOUNDARIES FOR OTHERS. So, it will be quite a spectacle of Karmic Justice when you offend the Protected Class du Jour, as will inevitably happen given the current trajectory.

Yes, violators will be beaten into submission just like Michael Brown was beaten into submission. In the end, the message us the same -- if you don't want the justice system to beat you into submission like they did Michael Brown, don't break the law and don't fight back illegally.

Michael Brown wasn't beaten into submission, you babbling fool. He attacked a police officer.

It's a metaphor, ya shvantz. In case you don't understand the point ... you break the law -- and the law doesn't **** around. You wanna play fight back illegally? You're gonna lose. i.e., get beaten into submission.

"Get beaten into submission"
... nice choice of words, and it matches the French whore house avatar.
lol sheesh

 

[ChrisL]

NOT when you open up a business. Then you follow secular law.

Well that's too bad for you. Because we are going do business, and we will not follow your secular laws on this matter.

So now what?

No, it's too bad for you, because you will be sued and probably go out of business. Then I suppose you would be here, crying. Waaa, the government won't allow me to discriminate against the people I don't like!!! *stomps feet, takes ball and goes home*

Translation: Waaaaa!!!!! Somebody doesn't agree with me so the Government needs to Make Them Think Like I Do, or DESTROY them. Waaaaa!!!!! I can't handle any viewpoints different than my own. Waaaaa!!!!!! I can't be bothered to find another bakery so Waaa!!!!! The Government should shut down the bakery that doesn't agree with me. Waaaaaa!!!!!

Hey, the point here is that government doesn't recognize discrimination as a religious custom or practice. In the eyes of the law, we are ALL Americans. Gay people are taxpaying American citizens, and you don't have any "right" to limit or restrict where they do business.

No, the point here is that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the proper Government Approved GroupThink will be beaten into submission.

You loons recognize NO INDIVIDUAL BOUNDARIES FOR OTHERS. So, it will be quite a spectacle of Karmic Justice when you offend the Protected Class du Jour, as will inevitably happen given the current trajectory.

No, the state recognizes what is good business and what is bad business. Discrimination is bad business, and states certainly do have the right to set the rules and regulations regarding how you do business. If you want to discriminate against gays, you should choose a state where it is NOT illegal. It's simple. Know the laws in your state and respect them. They are put in place for a reason by people who are more informed and knowledgeable about business practice than you.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/state-public-accommodation-laws.aspx

 

[ChrisL]

"They have gay sex, so we hate them!" Grow up, children.

Amazing how not wanting to have one's personal lifestyle imposed on others is characterized as "hating" them. Perhaps you don't know what hate is.

I know, the pagans and the gays and the blacks, they are coming for your SOUL! Mwa-ha-ha!

Which doesn't change the fact you have no idea what hate is. You think it's anyone who disagrees with you and the homosexual agenda and you don't conceive of the possibility that anyone can disagree with your political regime without any hatred. At best that makes you unsophisticated, at worst it makes you the originator of the hate you seem to see in everyone else.

Sure I do. People who think they are "too good" to serve other people because of their religious views are quite hateful human beings, and miserable too by the sounds of it.

That's your misguided opinion fueled by your own bigotry and hatred. From their point of view, they don't hate anybody but cannot do something that violates their conscience. That isn't hate. What you're doing is hate.

MY bigotry and hatred? You are nuts, but then most people here already know this. You are now amongst the Silhouettes and Where are my keys crowd.

People who want all tax paying American citizens to have equal rights and privileges are not the bigots here, dummy.

 

[ChrisL]

I suppose next he's going to accuse me of being a "demon." Lol!

 

[JoeB131]

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

They have religious freedom. their business does not. their business broke the laws of Oregon. Which are more important that God's Laws because Oregon actually has a real enforcement arm.

 

[IsaacNewton]

What makes you think your interpretation is any better?

Doesn't matter. You are a pagan. I couldn't possibly care less what you think about my faith. On a list of authority about Christian faith, you don't even exist.

If a Christian preacher were to talk to me, I'd have to consider it. You? I just laugh. Leave a smiley face and move on!

Jesus Christ as god on Earth and the trinity. Are these things that have been normal part of Christianity since the beginning?

Yes.

No. There were many beliefs in the first 300-400 years of Christianity regarding Jesus and the so-called 'trinity'. Many didn't believe this at all. Many in the church thought Jesus was just a human that spoke well.

Roman emporer Constantine, in 325 AD (the Council of Nicea), gathered together Bishops from around the Roman empire because there were so many varying beliefs on whether Jesus was the 'son of god' or just a man and many other questions regarding deity re Jesus.

These Bishops then VOTED on what would be Christian dogma, i.e. that Jesus would be thought of as deity rather than a man. It was rule of the majority. It had nothing to do with 'godly inspiration'. The views of the minority were crushed and expelled.

It would be similar to Bishops from Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Prebyterians, Calvinists and every other Christian sect having a meeting and voting on which single sect would be the winner and be taught as the official dogma of the church. The losers views discarded as rubbish. It was worse then because different sects would actually war on each other for their differing beliefs. More like what we see in the split in Islam in the middle east today.

Made absolute law by a Roman emporer, voted on by human beings. It wasn't divinely inspired. It was human politics, and the losers beliefs were crushed.

Add to this that there were many books that were left out of the bible. If they are inspired by god, what would you call it when humans reject god's word and decide what is and isn't contained in the bible?

This is what you believe is rock solid and has always been. It hasn't. Christianity is a mess of political forcing and compromise all along the way, as are all religions.

Many atheists know more about your religion than you ever will.

And I'm not a pagan, that seems to be your pet word for 'other'. I'm an agnostic.

The mistake you make is a common one, assuming that when the synods settle an issue, they are inventing doctrine. The synod of Nicea in 325, in battling the Arian heresies, adapted earlier creeds to specify the triune nature God in the new Nicene Creed. It was later adapted amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381. This by the way gave way to the movement to establish an official canon of Scripture around 392 at the Councils of Rome and Hippo.

And to lay scandal on the universal church for settling doctrinal disputes is to not understand what universal means. But more central to this discussion, belief in Jesus as divine goes all the way back to the beginning, to the Apostles one of which was Thomas who called Jesus, "My Lord and my God". There was no doubt they understood his divine nature as Jesus identified himself in a distinct manner, "Before Abraham was, I am." that God used to identify himself to his people through Moses. Christians were very unified in the belief in the divine nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but when heresies crept into the Church, an official clarification was warranted. In this there is no scandal.

Of course you will call them 'heresies'. The only reason they are called that is because they were outnumbered at the vote.

You try to obfuscate. Men voted on what Christian dogma would be. It wasn't some universal 'god inspired' truth from the beginning of Christianity.

Most people that claim to be Christians today don't know of these various manmade conventions and most wouldn't want to know.

It is quicksand, and most people that need religion need to believe it is founded on granite.

It isn't. All of the stories in the bible were taken from previous religions, the virgin birth, the Madonna. All from religions hundreds to thousands of years before Christianity showed up. There is nothing original about it.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Doesn't matter. You are a pagan. I couldn't possibly care less what you think about my faith. On a list of authority about Christian faith, you don't even exist.

If a Christian preacher were to talk to me, I'd have to consider it. You? I just laugh. Leave a smiley face and move on!

Jesus Christ as god on Earth and the trinity. Are these things that have been normal part of Christianity since the beginning?

Yes.

No. There were many beliefs in the first 300-400 years of Christianity regarding Jesus and the so-called 'trinity'. Many didn't believe this at all. Many in the church thought Jesus was just a human that spoke well.

Roman emporer Constantine, in 325 AD (the Council of Nicea), gathered together Bishops from around the Roman empire because there were so many varying beliefs on whether Jesus was the 'son of god' or just a man and many other questions regarding deity re Jesus.

These Bishops then VOTED on what would be Christian dogma, i.e. that Jesus would be thought of as deity rather than a man. It was rule of the majority. It had nothing to do with 'godly inspiration'. The views of the minority were crushed and expelled.

It would be similar to Bishops from Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Prebyterians, Calvinists and every other Christian sect having a meeting and voting on which single sect would be the winner and be taught as the official dogma of the church. The losers views discarded as rubbish. It was worse then because different sects would actually war on each other for their differing beliefs. More like what we see in the split in Islam in the middle east today.

Made absolute law by a Roman emporer, voted on by human beings. It wasn't divinely inspired. It was human politics, and the losers beliefs were crushed.

Add to this that there were many books that were left out of the bible. If they are inspired by god, what would you call it when humans reject god's word and decide what is and isn't contained in the bible?

This is what you believe is rock solid and has always been. It hasn't. Christianity is a mess of political forcing and compromise all along the way, as are all religions.

Many atheists know more about your religion than you ever will.

And I'm not a pagan, that seems to be your pet word for 'other'. I'm an agnostic.

The mistake you make is a common one, assuming that when the synods settle an issue, they are inventing doctrine. The synod of Nicea in 325, in battling the Arian heresies, adapted earlier creeds to specify the triune nature God in the new Nicene Creed. It was later adapted amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381. This by the way gave way to the movement to establish an official canon of Scripture around 392 at the Councils of Rome and Hippo.

And to lay scandal on the universal church for settling doctrinal disputes is to not understand what universal means. But more central to this discussion, belief in Jesus as divine goes all the way back to the beginning, to the Apostles one of which was Thomas who called Jesus, "My Lord and my God". There was no doubt they understood his divine nature as Jesus identified himself in a distinct manner, "Before Abraham was, I am." that God used to identify himself to his people through Moses. Christians were very unified in the belief in the divine nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but when heresies crept into the Church, an official clarification was warranted. In this there is no scandal.

Of course you will call them 'heresies'. The only reason they are called that is because they were outnumbered at the vote.

You try to obfuscate. Men voted on what Christian dogma would be. It wasn't some universal 'god inspired' truth from the beginning of Christianity.

Most people that claim to be Christians today don't know of these various manmade conventions and most wouldn't want to know.

It is quicksand, and most people that need religion need to believe it is founded on granite.

It isn't. All of the stories in the bible were taken from previous religions, the virgin birth, the Madonna. All from religions hundreds to thousands of years before Christianity showed up. There is nothing original about it.

Your getting into a load of crap I'm not going to follow. If you hate religion so much, go start a butt hurt thread in the religion section. That's not the topic of this thread.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Amazing how not wanting to have one's personal lifestyle imposed on others is characterized as "hating" them. Perhaps you don't know what hate is.

I know, the pagans and the gays and the blacks, they are coming for your SOUL! Mwa-ha-ha!

Which doesn't change the fact you have no idea what hate is. You think it's anyone who disagrees with you and the homosexual agenda and you don't conceive of the possibility that anyone can disagree with your political regime without any hatred. At best that makes you unsophisticated, at worst it makes you the originator of the hate you seem to see in everyone else.

Sure I do. People who think they are "too good" to serve other people because of their religious views are quite hateful human beings, and miserable too by the sounds of it.

That's your misguided opinion fueled by your own bigotry and hatred. From their point of view, they don't hate anybody but cannot do something that violates their conscience. That isn't hate. What you're doing is hate.

MY bigotry and hatred? You are nuts, but then most people here already know this. You are now amongst the Silhouettes and Where are my keys crowd.

People who want all tax paying American citizens to have equal rights and privileges are not the bigots here, dummy.

bigot
[big-uh t]

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun
1.
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

There it is. You demand that everyone accept and accommodate homosexuals, not tolerating any disagreement or dissent.

That makes you a bigot.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Jesus Christ as god on Earth and the trinity. Are these things that have been normal part of Christianity since the beginning?

Yes.

No. There were many beliefs in the first 300-400 years of Christianity regarding Jesus and the so-called 'trinity'. Many didn't believe this at all. Many in the church thought Jesus was just a human that spoke well.

Roman emporer Constantine, in 325 AD (the Council of Nicea), gathered together Bishops from around the Roman empire because there were so many varying beliefs on whether Jesus was the 'son of god' or just a man and many other questions regarding deity re Jesus.

These Bishops then VOTED on what would be Christian dogma, i.e. that Jesus would be thought of as deity rather than a man. It was rule of the majority. It had nothing to do with 'godly inspiration'. The views of the minority were crushed and expelled.

It would be similar to Bishops from Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Prebyterians, Calvinists and every other Christian sect having a meeting and voting on which single sect would be the winner and be taught as the official dogma of the church. The losers views discarded as rubbish. It was worse then because different sects would actually war on each other for their differing beliefs. More like what we see in the split in Islam in the middle east today.

Made absolute law by a Roman emporer, voted on by human beings. It wasn't divinely inspired. It was human politics, and the losers beliefs were crushed.

Add to this that there were many books that were left out of the bible. If they are inspired by god, what would you call it when humans reject god's word and decide what is and isn't contained in the bible?

This is what you believe is rock solid and has always been. It hasn't. Christianity is a mess of political forcing and compromise all along the way, as are all religions.

Many atheists know more about your religion than you ever will.

And I'm not a pagan, that seems to be your pet word for 'other'. I'm an agnostic.

The mistake you make is a common one, assuming that when the synods settle an issue, they are inventing doctrine. The synod of Nicea in 325, in battling the Arian heresies, adapted earlier creeds to specify the triune nature God in the new Nicene Creed. It was later adapted amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381. This by the way gave way to the movement to establish an official canon of Scripture around 392 at the Councils of Rome and Hippo.

And to lay scandal on the universal church for settling doctrinal disputes is to not understand what universal means. But more central to this discussion, belief in Jesus as divine goes all the way back to the beginning, to the Apostles one of which was Thomas who called Jesus, "My Lord and my God". There was no doubt they understood his divine nature as Jesus identified himself in a distinct manner, "Before Abraham was, I am." that God used to identify himself to his people through Moses. Christians were very unified in the belief in the divine nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but when heresies crept into the Church, an official clarification was warranted. In this there is no scandal.

Of course you will call them 'heresies'. The only reason they are called that is because they were outnumbered at the vote.

You try to obfuscate. Men voted on what Christian dogma would be. It wasn't some universal 'god inspired' truth from the beginning of Christianity.

Most people that claim to be Christians today don't know of these various manmade conventions and most wouldn't want to know.

It is quicksand, and most people that need religion need to believe it is founded on granite.

It isn't. All of the stories in the bible were taken from previous religions, the virgin birth, the Madonna. All from religions hundreds to thousands of years before Christianity showed up. There is nothing original about it.

Your getting into a load of crap I'm not going to follow. If you hate religion so much, go start a butt hurt thread in the religion section. That's not the topic of this thread.

I answered another poster. And again, just because someone holds a different opinion than you do doesn't mean they 'hate' anything. There is some weird switch in con's head that is either on 'completely agrees with me and is my best friend' or 'HATE'.

Disconnect your switch, the world is far more complicated.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

They have religious freedom. their business does not. their business broke the laws of Oregon. Which are more important that God's Laws because Oregon actually has a real enforcement arm.

That's your opinion. We fear the living G-d more than your secular laws. Again, if Christian are willing to die for their faith, as we've seen around the world.... what exactly do you think you are going to do to stop us?

Nothing.

 

[Andylusion]

I know, the pagans and the gays and the blacks, they are coming for your SOUL! Mwa-ha-ha!

Which doesn't change the fact you have no idea what hate is. You think it's anyone who disagrees with you and the homosexual agenda and you don't conceive of the possibility that anyone can disagree with your political regime without any hatred. At best that makes you unsophisticated, at worst it makes you the originator of the hate you seem to see in everyone else.

Sure I do. People who think they are "too good" to serve other people because of their religious views are quite hateful human beings, and miserable too by the sounds of it.

That's your misguided opinion fueled by your own bigotry and hatred. From their point of view, they don't hate anybody but cannot do something that violates their conscience. That isn't hate. What you're doing is hate.

MY bigotry and hatred? You are nuts, but then most people here already know this. You are now amongst the Silhouettes and Where are my keys crowd.

People who want all tax paying American citizens to have equal rights and privileges are not the bigots here, dummy.

bigot
[big-uh t]

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun
1.
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

There it is. You demand that everyone accept and accommodate homosexuals, not tolerating any disagreement or dissent.

That makes you a bigot.

It is ironic, that these people in their own actions, make themselves into the very thing they claim to be opposing.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes they could bowed to public pressure and violated their religious beliefs. We already know they could have done that, under the gun of public demand.

Like blaming a woman for rape. Should have just agreed to have sex. It's her fault for not just doing what she was told.

Lying is also not an option. That defeats the entire purpose. The point is to follow their religious views.

Nor should they need to come up with lies to practice their faith, in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom.

Yeah, they could have left the cake business... that's your version of religious freedom eh? You have the freedom to leave whenever we decide to violate your freedom?

In short, you came up with a dozen rationalizations to violate these people's religious freedom, and blame them for it.

Thanks, but you are dismissed.

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

But you are assuming we're going through it, for the sake of donations. I would stand for my faith if I collected zero donations.

I am not. It does not matter how much "legal hell" you put us through. We have a higher authority than your legal crap.

Life is not about being rich, or having millions. This life is very short, and what matters, is what comes after.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Because it's bullshit ... they violate their religious beliefs all the time. Any wedding cakes they've ever sold to any non-Christian couple, violated their religious beliefs. Obviously, they used their religion to shield their bigotry against homosexuals.

Not your call, thought cop.

Tell that to the Kleins'.

The Kleins haven't paid a cent so far and their business continues.

If they don't pay soon, at the very least, they face having a lien put on their property; at worst, they could lose their business license. And regardless how it turns out, they will go through hell in the legal process. And it will be worse for others who attempt to follow their lead. Despite what the Kleins' go through, they are at least raking in donations. The more people try a stunt like this, the smaller the donations will be.

But you are assuming we're going through it, for the sake of donations. I would stand for my faith if I collected zero donations.

I am not. It does not matter how much "legal hell" you put us through. We have a higher authority than your legal crap.

Life is not about being rich, or having millions. This life is very short, and what matters, is what comes after.

Render unto Caesar...and I don't mean Millan.