The Definition of A "Christian"

[Smartt33]

I had a Christian friend tell me tonight that the best definition of a Christian was someone who sincerely believed that he was absolutely wrong about his faith in Jesus.

I said (and I quote) "What the fuck?!?!"

He said, "Yeah, a true Christian is someone who loves his fellow man enough to sincerely hope that he is wrong about his faith because if he is wrong, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus gets a pass, but if he is right, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus goes to hell to burn forever. Therefore, if a Christian is true to the concept of 'love' (willingness to lay your life down for a friend), he sincerely hopes he is wrong about the Gospel, and everyone just dies, or gets to the next level on their own merit and the concept of 'hell' is rendered moot."

Is this true? Can love actually transcend the bullshit?

Please don't flame this one - I really want to know if love can possibly be this selfless and powerful.

-Joe

As a Born again Christian, I believe that a true believer prays that God will make a way for all people, not because they feel sorry for them, but because they truly love them with the love that God has placed in their hearts. It is like hoping that you are wrong, but actually it is believing God at any cost, knowing in your heart that God ia the Almighty.

True believers believe the Scriptures, and if we understand it completely and correctly, the idea of Hell is real and eternal. I believe we can pray, and even hope that we might have it understood wrongly, not that the scriptures are wrong, just our understanding of them.

We can pray that, however, in order to do as God has commanded we must believe there is a fire, and that we must warn everyone. If the Holy Spirit reveals with new clarity that we have understood it incorrectly, there will most certainly be something more to it than "we just die and that is the end," or "there really is no Hell, and everyonr gets a pass."

I have personally thought a lot about this, and my love for humanity, and life causes me to pray that there is something missing in our understanding. I will continue to follow my faith in the scriptures the way I understand them until God reveals with more clarity that there is really something else in the plan. Even a second chance after death would be nice. I believe God is a God of second chances, but AI also believe He is just and righteous in all of His plans.

Hope I have been clear enough for you to understand.

It is a pretty clear presentation of part of the 'gospel' message and a pretty clear presentation of your views on the matter. Thank you.

It still begs the question though: Are there any Christians out there who understand agape love (the willingness to lay ones life on the line for another) enough to hope, at great personal sacrifice, that Christian teachings about Heaven and Hell are wrong.

-Joe

I think that agape love would be expressed more in praying for those who are not believers, for their salvation, than for us to hope that the teachings are wreong. We believe what we believe is true. As believers, we also would be willing to step out of the box to express the truth to people around us. That brings on wrath, even the USA now days.

I know that I will love those who are not believers enough to stand strong in the faith, as Ephesions says when it addresses the Armor of God. Willingness to stand strong is an expression of great love. To hope that what we believe is wrong is not good enough to be agape love.

God loves us and receives us as we are, but His love for us is so awesome that He will not leave us in the condition we are in. God loves us, not because of who we are, butr because of who He is.

 

[RodISHI]

further EDITED FOR YET GREATER ACCURACY

Fixed!

Hey, get your own damn color, or you're just being dishonest

THOSE WHO FAIL TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT HAVE WORDS AND MEANINGS THAT THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND NOR CARE TO UNDERSTAND

Actually, no. It's quite simply, really. If god is 'perfect' then god must be unchanging, since the one and inly true perfect nature of such a being would cease to be so if it were to change- as it does several times

Also, god's law is shown between to NT and OT to be flawed, imperfect, and in need of changer

Only in your mind. There is nothing imperfect in the creation made by God. Man on the other hand is not perfection yet man is allowed to be creative. In that man has a flaw that was design from the beginning in the dust of the earth. Yet even that creature of the dust was to be given the ability to overcome that flaw by the breath of God. Your just a small embryo in the universe of eternity that is swimming in the wrong direction, JB.

 

[JBeukema]

There is nothing imperfect in the creation made by God. Man on the other hand is not perfection

Man was not made by God?

In that man has a flaw that was design from the beginning in the dust of the earth.

Flaw = imperfection

Your attempt at pretty rose fails hardcore

 

[AVG-JOE]

As a Born again Christian, I believe that a true believer prays that God will make a way for all people, not because they feel sorry for them, but because they truly love them with the love that God has placed in their hearts. It is like hoping that you are wrong, but actually it is believing God at any cost, knowing in your heart that God ia the Almighty.

True believers believe the Scriptures, and if we understand it completely and correctly, the idea of Hell is real and eternal. I believe we can pray, and even hope that we might have it understood wrongly, not that the scriptures are wrong, just our understanding of them.

We can pray that, however, in order to do as God has commanded we must believe there is a fire, and that we must warn everyone. If the Holy Spirit reveals with new clarity that we have understood it incorrectly, there will most certainly be something more to it than "we just die and that is the end," or "there really is no Hell, and everyonr gets a pass."

I have personally thought a lot about this, and my love for humanity, and life causes me to pray that there is something missing in our understanding. I will continue to follow my faith in the scriptures the way I understand them until God reveals with more clarity that there is really something else in the plan. Even a second chance after death would be nice. I believe God is a God of second chances, but AI also believe He is just and righteous in all of His plans.

Hope I have been clear enough for you to understand.

It is a pretty clear presentation of part of the 'gospel' message and a pretty clear presentation of your views on the matter. Thank you.

It still begs the question though: Are there any Christians out there who understand agape love (the willingness to lay ones life on the line for another) enough to hope, at great personal sacrifice, that Christian teachings about Heaven and Hell are wrong.

-Joe

I think that agape love would be expressed more in praying for those who are not believers, for their salvation, than for us to hope that the teachings are wreong. We believe what we believe is true. As believers, we also would be willing to step out of the box to express the truth to people around us. That brings on wrath, even the USA now days.

I know that I will love those who are not believers enough to stand strong in the faith, as Ephesions says when it addresses the Armor of God. Willingness to stand strong is an expression of great love. To hope that what we believe is wrong is not good enough to be agape love.

God loves us and receives us as we are, but His love for us is so awesome that He will not leave us in the condition we are in. God loves us, not because of who we are, butr because of who He is.

Thanks. I like the way you put it - I guess asking believers if they would be willing to wish their salvation void and meaningless so that others would be spared the torture of hell is like asking a bride if she would be willing to accept a mediocre marriage if doing so would guarantee that her sister wouldn't be abused in hers....

"Thank (insert the Deity of your choice here) for free will. Here is hoping that the dumb bitch makes as good a choice about forever as I have, but she is on her own with that choice..."

It is part of the art of being human I suppose.

Thanks again for answering from the heart.

-Joe

 

[RodISHI]

There is nothing imperfect in the creation made by God. Man on the other hand is not perfection

Man was not made by God?

In that man has a flaw that was design from the beginning in the dust of the earth.

Flaw = imperfection

Your attempt at pretty rose fails hardcore

The carnal man consist of water and chemicals found in the dust of the earth. Made from dust and water it returns to dust.

The only thing I missed in that statement was carnal.

What appears as a flaw is a portion of the creation that houses what will be eternal. Flesh was designed to fail from the get go. Just as a flower blooms and dies leaving behind seeds or sets for the next round of blooms. Some flowers never make it to the seed stage as the mold, blight and disease wipes them out first.

The eternal portion of a man is created in perfection by the breath of God.

So it simply boils down to without the spirit of God within people are merely "ugly bags of mostly water" with clay from the earth added in there to created a complex being that is a possible embryo of a God-like creature made of pure spirit.

Your attempt to discourage those who would enter in "fails hardcore."

 

[JBeukema]

Notice that yoshi here cannot rectify the glaring contradictions in its posts after JB points them out

 

[RodISHI]

Notice that yoshi here cannot rectify the glaring contradictions in its posts after JB points them out

Notice that poor JB aka dirtboy just turns back into dust when he passes on. JB's flesh passes away and all that remains is a pile of dust made up of Carbon, Nitrogen, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Chlorine, Sodium, Sulfur, Calcium, Phosphorous, Potassium, with traces of Aluminum, Boron, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Fluorine, Manganese, Molydenum, Selenium, Silicon, Tin, Vanadium, and Zinc. One thing we can all be thankful for though is that the nasty little spirit that resides within him will be scattered along with the rest of the dust he leaves behind.

 

[JBeukema]

Notice that yoshi here cannot rectify the glaring contradictions in its posts after JB points them out

Notice that poor JB aka dirtboy just turns back into dust when he passes on. JB's flesh passes away and all that remains is a pile of dust made up of Carbon, Nitrogen, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Chlorine, Sodium, Sulfur, Calcium, Phosphorous, Potassium, with traces of Aluminum, Boron, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Fluorine, Manganese, Molydenum, Selenium, Silicon, Tin, Vanadium, and Zinc.

JB will never decay, as he is actually not of this world, but is in reality the angel who stands behind the throne of God

Oh, and for your pathetic ans meaningless attack.. You've still yet to address the self-contradiction of your post that the Harbinger has pointed out.

 

[RodISHI]

Notice that yoshi here cannot rectify the glaring contradictions in its posts after JB points them out

Notice that poor JB aka dirtboy just turns back into dust when he passes on. JB's flesh passes away and all that remains is a pile of dust made up of Carbon, Nitrogen, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Chlorine, Sodium, Sulfur, Calcium, Phosphorous, Potassium, with traces of Aluminum, Boron, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Fluorine, Manganese, Molydenum, Selenium, Silicon, Tin, Vanadium, and Zinc.

JB will never decay, as he is actually not of this world, but is in reality the angel who stands behind the throne of God

Oh, and for your pathetic ans meaningless attack.. You've still yet to address the self-contradiction of your post that the Harbinger has pointed out.

There is nothing contradictory I already told you in previous threads and again here explaining it in a very simple term using a flower and you still do not get it.

Heavenly is created to be eternal. Earthly flesh is carnal and designed to fail/die. You cannot understand the difference. Flesh beings living on this earth were designed to fail/die. It is the heavenly portion in man that is created in perfection by God.



Even that nasty little spirit that dwells with you walks behind all those who are in Jesus Christ so you do have that, "behind" portion correct.

 

[JBeukema]

flowers have nothing to do with it

first you said that god's creation is perfect

then you said that a part of his creation is imperfect


The again, noone said you were intelligent

 

[RodISHI]

flowers have nothing to do with it

first you said that god's creation is perfect

then you said that a part of his creation is imperfect


The again, noone said you were intelligent

God's creation is perfect. The carnal is dirt.

Noone said you knew anything about God's creation so it's all fair. I'll take the knowledge of God over being a person of your caliber any ole day. Thanks.

 

[JBeukema]

]God's creation is perfect. The carnal is dirt.

So now God is not the maker of the 'carnal'?

Who made it then? Ahura Mazda?


So, then God is not 'the creator', as there is clearly a second creator, according to you

 

[Al Gunn]

god created homos

 

[RodISHI]

]God's creation is perfect. The carnal is dirt.

So now God is not the maker of the 'carnal'?

Who made it then? Ahura Mazda?


So, then God is not 'the creator', as there is clearly a second creator, according to you

At no time did I say God did not create the carnal. He created it and He planted here on earth in His garden. Like I said, your just a little embryo headed in the wrong direction. You do know the fix for that situation though so I have no need to go there with ya.

 

[JBeukema]

At no time did I say God did not create the carnal.

true, you made the case that God did not make Man

 

[RodISHI]

At no time did I say God did not create the carnal.

true, you made the case that God did not make Man

Not at all but nice try. I will not argue with you. You will have to find someone else to argue with.

 

[JBeukema]

At no time did I say God did not create the carnal.

true, you made the case that God did not make Man

Not at all

So god did not at all make Man?

I will not argue with you.

I accept your surrender and your admission of defeat at the hands of reason and a superior intellesct

 

[iagainsti]

I had a Christian friend tell me tonight that the best definition of a Christian was someone who sincerely believed that he was absolutely wrong about his faith in Jesus.

I said (and I quote) "What the fuck?!?!"

He said, "Yeah, a true Christian is someone who loves his fellow man enough to sincerely hope that he is wrong about his faith because if he is wrong, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus gets a pass, but if he is right, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus goes to hell to burn forever. Therefore, if a Christian is true to the concept of 'love' (willingness to lay your life down for a friend), he sincerely hopes he is wrong about the Gospel, and everyone just dies, or gets to the next level on their own merit and the concept of 'hell' is rendered moot."

Is this true? Can love actually transcend the bullshit?

Please don't flame this one - I really want to know if love can possibly be this selfless and powerful.

-Joe

That's really really interesting to think about.

I wonder if there are any Christians out there who actually hope they are wrong so that nonbelievers won't go to Hell...I don't know. I have seen two alternatives to that: Christians who are upset by the idea of Hell and try to convert as many nonbelievers as they can in order to save them from Hell; and Christians who are upset by the idea of Hell and try to come up with their own belief set in which they convince themselves that the Bible is somehow wrong, and even those who don't believe will be saved as long as they're good people.

I think any Christian who's halfway human would HAVE to be upset by the idea of Hell...who wouldn't be? I like to think that it's their awareness of Hell that drives them to want to evangelize, to want to share their faith. The polar opposite of that would be someone who relishes the idea of nonbelievers going to Hell, thinking that they deserve it...and, of course, that brings up the question, "How is that Christ-like?"

I think your friend has a point. Christianity emphasizes being Christ-like and loving your neighbor as yourself. So which is the highest form of love: hoping that you're right and trying to "save" as many others as you can; hoping that you're right but that God is a bit more forgiving with nonbelievers than described in the Bible; or hoping that you're wrong just so that nonbelievers won't end up in Hell? The third option is definitely the most selfless.

As far as whether love actually can transcend all the bullshit, I've yet to see it, but I love the idea of there being a Christian or two out there who hopes that they're wrong so that no one will have to go to Hell...not only would that Christian be as selfless and loving as Christ himself (IMO), they would be demonstrating a true understanding of what it would really mean for humanity if the teachings of Christianity were true.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I had a Christian friend tell me tonight that the best definition of a Christian was someone who sincerely believed that he was absolutely wrong about his faith in Jesus.

I said (and I quote) "What the fuck?!?!"

He said, "Yeah, a true Christian is someone who loves his fellow man enough to sincerely hope that he is wrong about his faith because if he is wrong, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus gets a pass, but if he is right, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus goes to hell to burn forever. Therefore, if a Christian is true to the concept of 'love' (willingness to lay your life down for a friend), he sincerely hopes he is wrong about the Gospel, and everyone just dies, or gets to the next level on their own merit and the concept of 'hell' is rendered moot."

Is this true? Can love actually transcend the bullshit?

Please don't flame this one - I really want to know if love can possibly be this selfless and powerful.

-Joe

If this isn't confusing, I don't know what is. Who is the one that is supposed to be wrong???? A man or specifically Christian? I honestly question if this person is actually a Christian.

A "Christian" literally means "little Christ," and as we understand it, a follower of and imitator of Christ. A disciple.

He knows I am even worse than a 'non-believer', I am a 'former believer'. There is absolutely no hope for me in the Christian view of heaven.

He told me that he sincerely hopes he is wrong about heaven because then people like me won't burn in hell for eternity. I thought that I had, for the first time ever, heard a profession of 'agape' love. It moved me. I wanted to know what my friends at USMB thought. Was that weird?

-Joe

No. Your friend is wrong. A Christian is not someone who believes something is the truth, but then hopes that he's wrong because the truth sucks for some people. That is one definition of an idiot. A Christian is someone who believes something is true, and then hopes those he loves come to see the truth as well. Denial is of no use to anyone under any circumstances, and certainly is not a representation of love.

 

[Cecilie1200]

IMHO, a Christian is someone that has accepted Christ as their personal savior, and attempts to follow His teachings.

What are his teachings? what does it mean to 'follow' them?

Is such a selfless act as to lay one's life and faith down that a friend might live forever in spite of that friends arrogance regarding God part of the teachings of Jesus?

-Joe

His teachings are in the Bible. Following them means trying to live your life according to what He taught. None of this is rocket magic, so why are you being deliberately obtuse?

There is no "selfless act" in living in denial and hoping what you know to be true isn't, because the truth is harsh. Seriously, if he were to "lay down his faith", who would he be helping? How is that going to make anyone else "live forever"? If Christianity is really true, then all that means is that he's going to Hell along with his friend. And if it's not, it still hasn't made a damned bit of difference in the friend's life.