State first...Feds second...It's the law folks...

[SpidermanTuba]

Our governor called and offered to provide National Guard troops from our state, and he was put off by Gov. Blanco. Our Guard troops then went to MS where they were readily accepted. I remember reading an article somewhere during the Katrina aftermath that many state governors had offered Gov. Blanco National Guard units from their states and received the same kind of response our governor did.

Which state are you in? Do you have a link? I know she accepted troops from many states.

 

[no1tovote4]

A) You don't live in Louisiana - so your opinion of our governor doesn't even matter.

B) Can you read? I have stated multiple times that the governor drop the ball. Yet you continue as if I haven't.

Can you read? You are being deliberately obtuse.

Which is the same as you saying that I haven't blamed FEMA for their screwups, I have stated repeatedly that they did but you ignore that, so I just treated you to the same.

The only place we disagree is in the matter of level of culpability. I believe that the State and Local governments have the most culpability as they are in control of the responders.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

"So now its the governor's fault for trusting that the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency actually knew HOW TO MANAGE EMERGENCIES?"

If her LA Dept of Homeland Security wasn't telling FEMA not to send in volunteers where they were needed the most visibly I might agree with you. The governor obstructed and then blamed.

So now the governor is responsible for micro-managing everything? Does this mean its Bush's fault FEMA said they were sending 500 busses and not to use our own?

 

[no1tovote4]

The police force? NOPD has 1400 officers. You would need 1000 busses at least. You've got to be kidding. Don't know what you mean by pulling them over. I never suggested anyone would get pulled over.

I was asking that question to put forward the idea that they could have used anybody with a driver's license to drive the buses. Nobody was going to pull them over and say 'Where's your Bus Driver's license' and the Mayor could have simply used people in the vicinity on an emergency basis. To say, "We didn't have enough Bus Drivers" is simply pointing out that he could not think outside the box and get volunteer drivers from those that were left.

You are severly underestimating the planning that must go into an operation of this size. The implementation plan just wasn't there.

They chose not to implement any portion of the plan before hand even putting out a DVD that basically told them that they were on their own if an evacuation came into effect. A portion of the plan that the Mayor had written and had the responsibility to implement was to get the buses running. That "there weren't enough drivers" is no excuse not to implement any portion of the plan that he had put in place.

Name one instance in history where a local government successfully evacuated 100000 people with 3 days notice with the only beforehand agreed plan being "To utilize public transportation to evacuate those who do not have transportation of their own"

I know how many this government evacuated successfully, zero. Can you tell me how many might have been saved had he even made the attempt? It was irresponsible of an incompetent mayor to never work to implement any portion of the emergency plan he wrote.

 

[no1tovote4]

So now the governor is responsible for micro-managing everything? Does this mean its Bush's fault FEMA said they were sending 500 busses and not to use our own?

I already stated that the buses not being staged by FEMA was the Federal fault. This definitively proves you cannot or simply refuse to read.

It should be noted that the Governor won't take any responsibility other than to say, "I shouldn't have trusted..." The dept that would not allow in response teams are her responsibility just as FEMA is Bush's.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I was asking that question to put forward the idea that they could have used anybody with a driver's license to drive the buses. Nobody was going to pull them over and say 'Where's your Bus Driver's license' and the Mayor could have simply used people in the vicinity on an emergency basis. To say, "We didn't have enough Bus Drivers" is simply pointing out that he could not think outside the box and get volunteer drivers from those that were left.

How are you going to mobilize these volunteer drivers? Set up a booth at the mall?

What are you going to do when 1/5 of these busses get in horrible wrecks because the drivers you picked have never driven a bus before?


You wouldn't even have enough volunteers. You need at least a 1000 of them - people before the storm weren't concerned with helping out their neighbor - they were concerned about getting the F out of dodge. Yes - after the storm hit - a massive number of private citizens quit what they were doing and all chipped into to help. Hundreds and hundreds of people went down to NO with their private boats to rescue people - but these people didn't get enroute before the storm, because none of us even comprehended how much help would be needed from private citizens.

They chose not to implement any portion of the plan before hand even putting out a DVD that basically told them that they were on their own if an evacuation came into effect.

Don't know what good that would do - a lot of poor folks don't have DVD players.

A portion of the plan that the Mayor had written and had the responsibility to implement was to get the buses running. That "there weren't enough drivers" is no excuse not to implement any portion of the plan that he had put in place.

Where can I find the text?

I know how many this government evacuated successfully, zero.

Actually, about 80% got out of harms way before the storm. Over a million people in the great NO area. Contrast this with about 65% for Ivan, and when Georges hit there were still cars deadlocked on the interstate when it would have been going through N.O. - fortunately it turned.

Can you tell me how many might have been saved had he even made the attempt? It was irresponsible of an incompetent mayor to never work to implement any portion of the emergency plan he wrote.

There were apparently much fewer deaths at the evacuation centers than we had first thought. And people who refuse to go to an evacuation center will likely refuse to get on a bus taking them out of the city as well. Most of the people who refused to leave their houses did so not because they were unable but because they chose to stay there. The exception would be nursing homes - I know 30 died in one home, but that was in St. Bernard's Parish - they were in fact offered a way out and the administration of the home turned it down.


A thousand busses ready to take people out of the city is no good if people don't want to go. And there simply isn't enough law enforcement manpower to force them all out.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I already stated that the buses not being staged by FEMA was the Federal fault. This definitively proves you cannot or simply refuse to read.

It should be noted that the Governor won't take any responsibility other than to say, "I shouldn't have trusted..." The dept that would not allow in response teams are her responsibility just as FEMA is Bush's.

You want to say its directly Blanco's fault for every mistake LDHS made - so I'm just asking, were the lack of promised FEMA busses directly Bush's fault?

 

[no1tovote4]

How are you going to mobilize these volunteer drivers? Set up a booth at the mall?

You could have called for them on TV, you could have driven one bus to the convention center and asked for volunteers, you could have done about a million different things. You are deliberately giving this guy a pass on one of the easiest things to solve in the whole process.

What are you going to do when 1/5 of these busses get in horrible wrecks because the drivers you picked have never driven a bus before?

They wouldn't, the largest danger would be in running out of gas. They simply couldn't have driven that fast in the traffic of an evacuation.

You wouldn't even have enough volunteers. You need at least a 1000 of them - people before the storm weren't concerned with helping out their neighbor - they were concerned about getting the F out of dodge. Yes - after the storm hit - a massive number of private citizens quit what they were doing and all chipped into to help. Hundreds and hundreds of people went down to NO with their private boats to rescue people - but these people didn't get enroute before the storm, because none of us even comprehended how much help would be needed from private citizens.

You mean out of 100,000 people he was deliberately leaving behind there weren't 1000 people with driver's licenses? Right.

Don't know what good that would do - a lot of poor folks don't have DVD players.

I didn't know either, but it was reported.

Where can I find the text?

I don't know again, but I will look into it and find a report of it for you.

Actually, about 80% got out of harms way before the storm. Over a million people in the great NO area. Contrast this with about 65% for Ivan, and when Georges hit there were still cars deadlocked on the interstate when it would have been going through N.O. - fortunately it turned.

That was during voluntary evacuation, the mayor didn't even order a mandatory one until three days after it was asked of him and he "took it under advisement".

There were apparently much fewer deaths at the evacuation centers than we had first thought. And people who refuse to go to an evacuation center will likely refuse to get on a bus taking them out of the city as well. Most of the people who refused to leave their houses did so not because they were unable but because they chose to stay there. The exception would be nursing homes - I know 30 died in one home, but that was in St. Bernard's Parish - they were in fact offered a way out and the administration of the home turned it down.

Thankfully there were much fewer deaths in the "evacuation centers" that the mayor failed to sockpile food for (part of his plan he refused to implement, you know the one HE wrote).

A thousand busses ready to take people out of the city is no good if people don't want to go. And there simply isn't enough law enforcement manpower to force them all out.

Are you attempting to say that of those 100,000 people there weren't even a few that wanted to get out of the city? I never said to force them out.

 

[no1tovote4]

Here is an article with information about the DVD...

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/050921/21leo.htm?track=rss

Nagin didn't bother. He did, however, record a message on DVD last July announcing, with other civic leaders, that New Orleans couldn't afford to evacuate the 134,000-odd mostly poor and black people known to lack transportation out of the city in case of a hurricane. When the hurricane struck, the DVD, with its hopeless message, "You're on your own," still hadn't been released.

It hadn't yet been released, so I guess nobody had the message that their mayor had abandoned them.

 

[no1tovote4]

You want to say its directly Blanco's fault for every mistake LDHS made - so I'm just asking, were the lack of promised FEMA busses directly Bush's fault?

As I stated, it was the fed's fault that the buses had not been staged nearby but had to come from afar. Directly Bush's fault no, but Bush hasn't been attempting to blame Blanco for anything at all, while Blanco blames Bush directly for the lack of buses. She also will not even state that the LA Dept. of Homeland Secturity had any part of the problem because she knows she is culpable for their action. Bush took responsibility, this lady attempts to evade and you give her the thumbs up on it with a smile. To you it is great that Bush is blamed, it doesn't matter that the State had far more culpability.

 

[dilloduck]

The police force? NOPD has 1400 officers. You would need 1000 busses at least. You've got to be kidding. Don't know what you mean by pulling them over. I never suggested anyone would get pulled over.


You are severly underestimating the planning that must go into an operation of this size. The implementation plan just wasn't there.


Name one instance in history where a local government successfully evacuated 100000 people with 3 days notice with the only beforehand agreed plan being "To utilize public transportation to evacuate those who do not have transportation of their own"

Houston managed to get their folks out of harms way. They used every form of transportation they had and didn't wait for any gift wrapped air conditioned busses to show up .

 

[SpidermanTuba]

You mean out of 100,000 people he was deliberately leaving behind there weren't 1000 people with driver's licenses? Right.

"Leaving behind" implies he evacuated himself - which he didn't. Slightly misleading.

And I assume by "volunteer" you mean people willfully choosing to drive these busses without being forced, right? So how are you sure you would be able to get a crack volunteer force of ONE THOUSAND people together in less than three days time? No wait - less than one days - because you need the other two days to do the picking up of people and driving. I really don't see how you know that 1000 volunteers could have easily been gotten - do you have a crystal ball? You could have gotten 1000 volunteers EASILY AFTER the storm - in fact, there were so many people volunteering to drive busses they started turning busses back empty because there were to many coming in to have security for them (days after the storm). But before the storm the attitude of the people was the typical "every man for himself" attitude. You're assuming people would have been equally as willing to make sacrifices to help others before the storm as they were after - and that's just not the case.

That was during voluntary evacuation, the mayor didn't even order a mandatory one until three days after it was asked of him and he "took it under advisement".

What are you doing now, just making stuff up to suit your arguments? Nagin issued the mandatory order on Sunday mornng - the National Hurricane Center advised him to do so on Saturday. We call that "one day". Get your facts straight. 3 days before August 28th was August 25th - no one anywhere had done anything at that point in time.

Thankfully there were much fewer deaths in the "evacuation centers" that the mayor failed to sockpile food for (part of his plan he refused to implement, you know the one HE wrote).

The National Guard brought in 3 days worth of food and water to the Superdome before the storm hit. Its irrevelant whether or not the food and water was there three months earlier or whether it was brought in just in time for the storm, now isn't it? Let's see - case 1) NG brings in food and water just before the storm so its there when the people need it case 2) food and water are stockpiled in the dome months ahead of time. What difference does it make?

Are you attempting to say that of those 100,000 people there weren't even a few that wanted to get out of the city? I never said to force them out.

Sure there were. They went to the Superdome. Where they got food and water for 3 days. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Nagin I suppose had figured on help getting to them by Thursday - unfortunately the levels of government above him failed him.

 

[no1tovote4]

"Leaving behind" implies he evacuated himself - which he didn't. Slightly misleading.

And I assume by "volunteer" you mean people willfully choosing to drive these busses without being forced, right? So how are you sure you would be able to get a crack volunteer force of ONE THOUSAND people together in less than three days time? No wait - less than one days - because you need the other two days to do the picking up of people and driving. I really don't see how you know that 1000 volunteers could have easily been gotten - do you have a crystal ball? You could have gotten 1000 volunteers EASILY AFTER the storm - in fact, there were so many people volunteering to drive busses they started turning busses back empty because there were to many coming in to have security for them (days after the storm). But before the storm the attitude of the people was the typical "every man for himself" attitude. You're assuming people would have been equally as willing to make sacrifices to help others before the storm as they were after - and that's just not the case.

Nobody said anything about a "crack" team. You are being willfully uncomprehending here. They could take a bus, drive it over to the Stadium, another to the Convention Center, make an announcement, take volunteers on those buses over to the place where buses are stored, let them start the buses and return to said places, pick people up, drive away. Thus actually evacuating them rather than attempting to save them after the fact. Those that choose to stay do so at a risk that should have also been made clear. However he simply abandoned the idea of using those buses at all, long before and created DVDs that he FAILED TO RELEASE TO THE PUBLIC. He willfully chose not to implement his own plan, and didn't even tell people that they were on their own!

I have little sympathy for those who would willfully choose to stay behind when they have means to evacuate, these people had no means whatsoever because he simply would not provide it even according to the plan he helped to prepare.

What are you doing now, just making stuff up to suit your arguments? Nagin issued the mandatory order on Sunday mornng - the National Hurricane Center advised him to do so on Saturday. We call that "one day". Get your facts straight. 3 days before August 28th was August 25th - no one anywhere had done anything at that point in time.

Okay, one day too late, he could have implemented his own plan one day before as well as three days before. Removing some is better than removing none. Implementing your own plan slightly late, better than willfully disregarding your own planning and never making even one attempt to get people out of harms way.

The National Guard brought in 3 days worth of food and water to the Superdome before the storm hit. Its irrevelant whether or not the food and water was there three months earlier or whether it was brought in just in time for the storm, now isn't it? Let's see - case 1) NG brings in food and water just before the storm so its there when the people need it case 2) food and water are stockpiled in the dome months ahead of time. What difference does it make?

It was part of his plan to stockpile food there for more than three days, it was not part of his plan to have the NG bring food for three days into the place. This is simply more of his disregard for the lives of those in need, he simply ignored their need. At least the NG was able to implement some of his plan for him.

Sure there were. They went to the Superdome. Where they got food and water for 3 days. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Nagin I suppose had figured on help getting to them by Thursday - unfortunately the levels of government above him failed him.

As I stated, his plan had evacuation in order for them and for those that couldn't be evacuated in a short period the plan ordered the stockpiling of food for longer than three days, he simply didn't implement any of it. The only reason those people received any food at all is because of the NG, not because of this guy. His plan was never implemented at his own order without even notifying those for whom the plan was created. This guy isn't corrupt, he is sipmly incompetent.

I'm all for saying the Feds screwed the pooch on this one, clearly they did, but they wouldn't have screwed the pooch if the Local and State hadn't been totally incompetent if not outrightly working with a purpose to leave these people in dire straights. But hey, lets only talk about the people you want to talk about, and then attempt to give these people a pass, you keep saying that they screwed up but keep attempting to excuse them with every word you type, you can come up with as many ways that they are totally not at fault but in every case you are wrong. This guy simply didn't do his job on this, either by directly refusing to do it, or by total lack of competence when he realized the situation would get out of hand, and the really funny thing is he even wrote his own job requirements! I bet those people in NO were really happy that he recognized problems and came up with solutions, too bad he refused to actually do what he planned.

Once again, it was the total lack of response from State and Local government that created the debacle of Louisiana. The Governor truly didn't understand that getting rid of red tape during emergencies is vital to a quick response, the Mayor totally lacked any implementation of his own emergency planning, then when their lack was rearing its ugly head they got out their biggest rubber fingers so they could use them to point at anybody but them.

 

[Adam's Apple]

Which state are you in? Do you have a link? I know she accepted troops from many states.

Do a google search. What I read about other state governors offering National Guard units to Gov. Blanco and being put on hold was from a major news source.