Some Leaders Actually Serve & Lead

[Alpha1]

The quote was from newsmax... are you surprised it said Dan Rather "forged documents"? Dan Rather forged nothing... CBS wasn't careful enough but the story was correct. Pity it got caught up on that one doco....

And the point of the article, in case you missed it, was even newsmax said Bush's daddy used his influence to get Bush into the guard and out of Vietnam.

I don't really give a rats rear what NewsMax claims....I care about PROOF....anybody can make any irrational accusation they want....
THATS NOT PROOF and thats the point......
and Cheers to you....

Cheers....

777

 

[Alpha1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredGySgt View Post
He KNEW they were fake. He and his producer FIRED their expert that TOLD them the documents could NOT be verified. So lets get it straight, Bush is responsible for anyone he hires but Dan Rather is not?
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MM reply:
so let's get it straight...you think that Dan Rather hired a forger?
----------------------------------------------------

Just an observation, mm....how could you possibly conclude that RGS thinks Rather hirer a forger by his post...?

Can you really not understand what you read?
Does you wife pin your mittens to your sleeves and pin a name tag on your lapel....????

 

[Gunny]

Total bullshit.

He got into the Guard by special intervention of the LtGov of Texas to get out of going to Vietnam. He didn't even complete his tour. He got out to work on a political campaign.

Wow, patrolling the dangerous skies over Alabama. I bet there were SAM sites all over the place.

How much fukking kool aid does it take?

You're right ... it IS total bullshit. It's total bullshit that you want to play a dishonest qualification game.

So basically, cuz you ain't grunt you ain't shit, is that what you're saying?

He didn't want to go to Nam. So what? Did you? Tell us how much balls it DOESN'T take to fly one of the arguably most dangerous planes the US had at the time ... the F-102 Delta Dart.

My FIRST deployment was the LAST deployment I "wanted" to go on, and if asked, I'd have said I didn't want to go given a choice.

You tell ME how much kool aid does it take?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

so let's get it straight...you think that Dan Rather hired a forger?

Go ahead twist away. Rather CHOSE to use a fake document, he CHOSE to fire the man that told him it was fake. But of course in YOUR world he then is innocent of anything.

 

[maineman]

Go ahead twist away. Rather CHOSE to use a fake document, he CHOSE to fire the man that told him it was fake. But of course in YOUR world he then is innocent of anything.

Rather is guilty of poor judgment. no doubt.

 

[Gunny]

Rather is guilty of poor judgment. no doubt.

Irresponsible journalism. He should never have presented unverified information of that magnitude as fact to the American people.

It cost him his job and his reputation. I'd say he paid for his indiscretion.

 

[rayboyusmc]

It cost him his job and his reputation. I'd say he paid for his indiscretion

So if Rather was fired for not vetting the authenticity of the documents (the facts were accurate, but someone came up with forged documents to blow Rather out of the water.)

Then should anything be done to Bill O Really for saying he would join a lynch group if the statement by Ms Obama turned out true?

 

[rayboyusmc]

CBS/AP) In a video posted on the Internet, former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes, a Democrat, says he is ashamed that he helped President Bush and the sons of other wealthy families get into the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 so they could avoid serving in Vietnam.

"I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard when I was lieutenant governor of Texas, and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it," Barnes said in the 45-second video, which was recorded May 27 at a meeting of John Kerry supporters in Austin.

Barnes, who was House speaker when Mr. Bush entered the Guard, later became lieutenant governor.

He said he became ashamed after walking through the Vietnam Memorial and looking at the names of people who died.

"I became more ashamed of myself than I've ever been because the worst thing I did was get a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance into the Guard and I'm very sorry about that and I apologize to you and the voters of Texas," Barnes said.

President Bush has denied that family influence got him into the Guard.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/09/politics/main628437.shtml

 

[maineman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/09/politics/main628437.shtml

RGS will dismiss this because Barnes is a democrat. In his world, republicans only tell the truth and democrats only tell lies.

 

[Gunny]

So if Rather was fired for not vetting the authenticity of the documents (the facts were accurate, but someone came up with forged documents to blow Rather out of the water.)

Then should anything be done to Bill O Really for saying he would join a lynch group if the statement by Ms Obama turned out true?

LOL ... GMAFB. "The facts were accurate but someone came up with a forged document to blow Rather out of the water." The forged document was what Rather presented as fact.

Comparing that to O'Reilly is comparing apples -n- oranges. O'Reilly is an oped. He doesn't report news -- he gives his, and presents others' opinions on already reported news.

Rather was a news reporter. His job was to present factual news on a program packaged and sold as the reporting of factual news.

If someone who is on an actual Fox News show that is presented as a show that reports factual news does the same thing Rather did, then he should at least have his ass chewed.

I don't agree with the severity of punishment for what Rather did, btw. IMO, it was done for two reasons: punishment, and removing a news anchor who had impeached his own credibility with the American public.

I believe Rather irresponsible behavior was a result of oversealousness but not criminally mined. That of course, is just my opinion and I present it as nothing more nor less.

I'd have stuck him in the back room editting copy and let him retire quietly when the time came.

 

[Gunny]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/09/politics/main628437.shtml

Nice attempt at playing the emotion card. I have no doubt Barnes got Bush a position in the ANG. Happens every day.

He didn't get him into a college or off to a European nation.

He served. Period. It gripes my ass seeing people question the validity and value of others' service. But I take particular offense to another vet doing it. It's bullshit.

And I'm straight down the middle on it. Ask your fellow Naval officer.

 

[Gunny]

RGS will dismiss this because Barnes is a democrat. In his world, republicans only tell the truth and democrats only tell lies.

Why should it not be dismissed, MM? Not for the reason you said, but is there any evidence to back up the claim? You know the LtGov did not personally escort Bush through the system ... he would send him to someone. That equals corroboration and a paper trail. Where is it?

Supposing he DID get Bush into the Guard? His reasons from Bush going in are supposition on his part minus some evidence.

Even THEN, Bush STILL served. He didn't run off to Canada or Europe or hide out in college somewhere.

You would have us take the word of a Democrat that he got Bush into the Guard so he could avoid Vietnam; yet, you choose to place a lesser value on a Republican's military service than others who served simply because he IS a Republican.

 

[maineman]

Why should it not be dismissed, MM? Not for the reason you said, but is there any evidence to back up the claim? You know the LtGov did not personally escort Bush through the system ... he would send him to someone. That equals corroboration and a paper trail. Where is it?

Supposing he DID get Bush into the Guard? His reasons from Bush going in are supposition on his part minus some evidence.

Even THEN, Bush STILL served. He didn't run off to Canada or Europe or hide out in college somewhere.

You would have us take the word of a Democrat that he got Bush into the Guard so he could avoid Vietnam; yet, you choose to place a lesser value on a Republican's military service than others who served simply because he IS a Republican.

I do not place a lesser value on a republican's military service simply because he is a republican.

I would have you take the word of a well respected and long serving public official who has nothing personally to gain by lying.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I do not place a lesser value on a republican's military service simply because he is a republican.

I would have you take the word of a well respected and long serving public official who has nothing personally to gain by lying.

He has a LOT to gain, as does his party. Unless he can provide a paper trail his word is just that, one man's partisan claim.

Again provide us a name of someone that was passed over so Bush could get in the Guard. It can not be THAT hard. Someone must have been denied entry if it required all this special behind the door dealing to get into the Air National Guard.

We already know politicians lie for all kind of reasons. You chose to believe a Democrat that has no evidence on a story that plays to your assumptions, I chose to believe a Republican that also has "no reason" to lie. HE served in an aircraft that was THE MOST dangerous Aircraft at the time. He flew it more hours then required and more often then required. HE did not lie to a Col to get into an ROTC billet and then skip the country to not even do THAT duty. He never had to receive a Presidential pardon either.

That Democrat had 30 years to change his story and did not do so until what Bush ran for reelection? I guess he just happen to finally walk through the memorial that year right?

Further ANG service did not prevent one from being sent to Viet Nam, and the claim his aircraft never served there is ANOTHER lie, the F102 WAS in Vietnam. Another easy one to answer would be if Bush was so fearful for his life why didn't he get a different aircraft? OR better yet a desk job? He got that aircraft because THAT was what was available when he became a PILOT.

The claim that Rather's story is true is simply more bullshit. There is no EVIDENCE it is true. That would be why a forgery had to be made. That would be why they had to wait till the officers involved were all dead. That would be why after 5 YEARS of searching all Rather could come up with was a document so phony his own expert told him it was fake. So phony a man could tell it was fake without ever even seeing the original. That would be why he was going to wait until the day before the election to do the story, so there would be no time to disprove it before the election. It only got aired early cause others were gonna spill the beans and they did it to avoid that.

That also would be why the wife and son of the officer in command of Bush all have stated he was well liked by the Commander and was considered a good officer. Exactly what REASON do THEY have to lie?

Here is an easy one. You keep claiming Bush got in with help and was not qualified on his own. Get us a list of people denied entry into the ANG pilot program in Texas the year he joined.

Clinton didn't commit perjury but Bush lied about getting in the Guard. Partisan horse shit like that is why people do not BELIEVE you.

 

[maineman]

He has a LOT to gain, as does his party. Unless he can provide a paper trail his word is just that, one man's partisan claim.

Again provide us a name of someone that was passed over so Bush could get in the Guard. It can not be THAT hard. Someone must have been denied entry if it required all this special behind the door dealing to get into the Air National Guard.

We already know politicians lie for all kind of reasons. You chose to believe a Democrat that has no evidence on a story that plays to your assumptions, I chose to believe a Republican that also has "no reason" to lie. HE served in an aircraft that was THE MOST dangerous Aircraft at the time. He flew it more hours then required and more often then required. HE did not lie to a Col to get into an ROTC billet and then skip the country to not even do THAT duty. He never had to receive a Presidential pardon either.

That Democrat had 30 years to change his story and did not do so until what Bush ran for reelection? I guess he just happen to finally walk through the memorial that year right?

Further ANG service did not prevent one from being sent to Viet Nam, and the claim his aircraft never served there is ANOTHER lie, the F102 WAS in Vietnam. Another easy one to answer would be if Bush was so fearful for his life why didn't he get a different aircraft? OR better yet a desk job? He got that aircraft because THAT was what was available when he became a PILOT.

The claim that Rather's story is true is simply more bullshit. There is no EVIDENCE it is true. That would be why a forgery had to be made. That would be why they had to wait till the officers involved were all dead. That would be why after 5 YEARS of searching all Rather could come up with was a document so phony his own expert told him it was fake. So phony a man could tell it was fake without ever even seeing the original. That would be why he was going to wait until the day before the election to do the story, so there would be no time to disprove it before the election. It only got aired early cause others were gonna spill the beans and they did it to avoid that.

That also would be why the wife and son of the officer in command of Bush all have stated he was well liked by the Commander and was considered a good officer. Exactly what REASON do THEY have to lie?

Here is an easy one. You keep claiming Bush got in with help and was not qualified on his own. Get us a list of people denied entry into the ANG pilot program in Texas the year he joined.

Clinton didn't commit perjury but Bush lied about getting in the Guard. Partisan horse shit like that is why people do not BELIEVE you.

tell me what the former Lieutenant Governor had to gain personally and why you would call him a liar?

And the secretary of the guy who was purported to have signed the forged document corroborated the substance of the letter in any case.

I never said that Clinton never lied.... I never said that Bush LIED about getting into the Guard. I know of no statements he has made on the subject. I doubt that young Georgie was the guy who called up the speaker and asked him to pull strings in any case....it was, most likely, a friend of his dad's.

 

[Alpha1]

tell me what the former Lieutenant Governor had to gain personally and why you would call him a liar?

How about the fact that he was a life-long Democrat and partisan hack...?
Thats enough for me..


And the secretary of the guy who was purported to have signed the forged document corroborated the substance of the letter in any case.

I never said that Clinton never lied.... I never said that Bush LIED about getting into the Guard. I know of no statements he has made on the subject. I doubt that young Georgie was the guy who called up the speaker and asked him to pull strings in any case....


it was, most likely, a friend of his dad's.
Assuming it ever happened at all...

mmmmm

 

[maineman]

How about the fact that he was a life-long Democrat and partisan hack...?
Thats enough for me..

I should have added your name along with RGS in post #49.

According to you two, all democrats lie and all republicans tell the truth.

With that attitude, why even create the pretense of wanting to discuss anything?

 

[Gunny]

I do not place a lesser value on a republican's military service simply because he is a republican.

I would have you take the word of a well respected and long serving public official who has nothing personally to gain by lying.

But a long serving, Democrat public official DOES have something to gain by dumping dirt on a Republican. Nothing like helping out the party. Not saying he did, only that it DOES make his motive questionable.

I would not accept the uncorroborated word of a long serving Republican official under like circumstances.

That is EXACTLY what Rather did (well except for his source) and it bit him on the ass.

 

[Alpha1]

I should have added your name along with RGS in post #49.

According to you two, all democrats lie and all republicans tell the truth.

With that attitude, why even create the pretense of wanting to discuss anything?

|AND that would untrue....you asked,

Originally Posted by maineman View Post
tell me what the former Lieutenant Governor had to gain personally and why you would call him a liar?

You asked WHY he might lie...I gave you the reasons HE MIGHT LIE.....

The Gunny noted something worth considering ...

"You know the LtGov did not personally escort Bush through the system ... he would send him to someone. That equals corroboration and a paper trail. Where is it?"

This could not have happened as a one-man band....there would have to be quite a few others involved...and some independent evidence....IT AIN'T THERE.....

 

[Alpha1]

Nevertheless MM....You will continue to post this lie, this accusation that has absolutely no proof of being fact...
that lack of proof won't stop you....you desperately wanted to believe Rather back at the onset and you'll never admit that it was all lies and innuendo from the very beginning......Bush served..and served honorably.....while your hero was a lying, military hating, draft dodger....live with it...