So, I Don't Understand...Do Christians Go By...?

[Coloradomtnman]

The New Testament, or both the Old and the New Testaments?

I know, I know. You're thinking, "Oh, God, CMM has started another Christian-bashing thread disguised as an honest inquiry and as soon as I reply he's going to attack me..."

Not this time. I'm actually confused about this. Newby, a Christian I've argued with over and over again, said something that made me think about this. She says she doesn't read the OT. And I thought, but don't Christians live by the 10 Commandments?

I'm confused about this. If you don't go by the OT, do you still follow the 10 Commandments, and if you still follow the 10 Commandments, why not all the rest of Leviticus? If you just adhere to what was written in the NT, why, and why not the OT? What makes the difference? I've read the Bible, but that doesn't mean I studied it and to me it is a really confusing book (probably because I don't believe), but I always thought one was considered to have been written before Christ and the other after and that was the only differentiation.

 

[Smartt33]

The New Testament, or both the Old and the New Testaments?

I know, I know. You're thinking, "Oh, God, CMM has started another Christian-bashing thread disguised as an honest inquiry and as soon as I reply he's going to attack me..."

Not this time. I'm actually confused about this. Newby, a Christian I've argued with over and over again, said something that made me think about this. She says she doesn't read the OT. And I thought, but don't Christians live by the 10 Commandments?

I'm confused about this. If you don't go by the OT, do you still follow the 10 Commandments, and if you still follow the 10 Commandments, why not all the rest of Leviticus? If you just adhere to what was written in the NT, why, and why not the OT? What makes the difference? I've read the Bible, but that doesn't mean I studied it and to me it is a really confusing book (probably because I don't believe), but I always thought one was considered to have been written before Christ and the other after and that was the only differentiation.

I don't care about motives for starting a post. People do what they do.

The Old Testament and the New Testament= The Bible. Christians believe the Bible. One good reason for confusion is one that you pointed out, lack of study. One who has not studied, with a serious desire to understand, will not understand.

The Bible is not only for doctrine. II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; " We learn the History of the Israelites and discover that as they were being led by God He had some specific requirements for them. These are written in about 600 specific laws. Just like many other parts of the Old Testament, it is history only, and we can learn from studying it just how God interacted with His people.

We don't throw that teaching out, we see it as part of the beginnings of where Christianity came from.

It is not a pick and choose book. We believe it is all inspired and useful as indicated in II Timothy 3:16. Those who don't study it lose valuable insight, and knowledge. Much of the Christian dostrine comes from the Old Testament, and much of it from the New. However, All of it is consistent between both.

No need to debate this, you already admitted you haven't studied it. You are indeed confused, and I understand that. However, the one thing that stands true in the Old and New Testament is that God does respond to those who seek Him. Some just don't accept His responses.

 

[Modbert]

The New Testament, or both the Old and the New Testaments?

I know, I know. You're thinking, "Oh, God, CMM has started another Christian-bashing thread disguised as an honest inquiry and as soon as I reply he's going to attack me..."

Not this time. I'm actually confused about this. Newby, a Christian I've argued with over and over again, said something that made me think about this. She says she doesn't read the OT. And I thought, but don't Christians live by the 10 Commandments?

I'm confused about this. If you don't go by the OT, do you still follow the 10 Commandments, and if you still follow the 10 Commandments, why not all the rest of Leviticus? If you just adhere to what was written in the NT, why, and why not the OT? What makes the difference? I've read the Bible, but that doesn't mean I studied it and to me it is a really confusing book (probably because I don't believe), but I always thought one was considered to have been written before Christ and the other after and that was the only differentiation.

I was born and raised a Christian. (Still am a Christian). The OT is of course written before Christ and the other is written after his death but outlines his life (though it skips a good chunk). However, it was even stated several times in the N.T to always follow the O.T. Many Christians like to say they don't believe in the O.T or follow the O.T because the O.T makes all their arguments look bad. However, without the belief in O.T, they would not believe in Adam & Eve, Moses, etc and that would not make sense in Christianity.

In fact:

Matthew 5:18-19 (King James Version)

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Mark 7:9-13 (King James Version)

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

In fact, Jesus says those who look with lust should gouge their own eye out because the punishment is hell.

Luke 16:17 (King James Version)

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

John 7:15-19 (King James Version)

15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

---
Hope that answers your question.

 

[Care4all]

Christians believe that the old testament was a covenent with God that was fulfilled by the birth of Christ, giving us a NEW Covenent with God, the new testament....

thus Chirst saying he came to fulfill the LAW, not abolish it.

The old testament spelled out our sins, the new testament, Christ's coming, death and resurrection brought salvation of these sins through him, instead of sacrificing a pure Lamb for forgiveness of sins as was done in the past.

Christ said for us to love God with all our heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself and all of the commandments would be adhered to....what we call, the Golden Rule.

then He goes on to explain who our neighbor is.....

care

 

[Immanuel]

Both Testaments are equally important. One source of confusion that many people have is the purpose of the Testaments. The Old Testament is a book of laws, poems, proverbs and history all focused on one thing... our need for reconciliation with God the creator. It shows us our need for the savior. The Old Testament laws are a guide for us to follow. Perfect beings would follow the laws of the Old Testament and be reconciled with God. It is NOT simply a book of laws that you must follow or be sent to prison for all eternity.

However, we are not perfect beings. We need a savior to accomplish the task of reconciling us with God. The New Testament, from the Gospel to the Book of Revelation, show us who that savior is and God's plan to reconcile us with God.

Therefore, we believe and follow both testaments. We do not believe that we are perfect nor that you should be perfect. We believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law for us. We believe that all men are sinners and cannot by their own power accomplish the task of reconciling ourselves with God. We believe that even the slighest sin separates us from God for all eternity if it were not for the gift of God's Grace given through the Blood of Christ.

Immie

 

[Care4all]

Both Testaments are equally important. One source of confusion that many people have is the purpose of the Testaments. The Old Testament is a book of laws, poems, proverbs and history all focused on one thing... our need for reconciliation with God the creator. It shows us our need for the savior. The Old Testament laws are a guide for us to follow. Perfect beings would follow the laws of the Old Testament and be reconciled with God. It is NOT simply a book of laws that you must follow or be sent to prison for all eternity.

However, we are not perfect beings. We need a savior to accomplish the task of reconciling us with God. The New Testament, from the Gospel to the Book of Revelation, show us who that savior is and God's plan to reconcile us with God.

Therefore, we believe and follow both testaments. We do not believe that we are perfect nor that you should be perfect. We believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law for us. We believe that all men are sinners and cannot by their own power accomplish the task of reconciling ourselves with God. We believe that even the slighest sin separates us from God for all eternity if it were not for the gift of God's Grace given through the Blood of Christ.

Immie

darnit immie! you said it so much better than me!

care

 

[AllieBaba]

Old and New. It takes a lot of dedicated reading and study to understand how they mesh together and complement each other.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well...Thanks everyone. That pretty much cleared that up for me.

Now, though, how do you know what is or isn't a sin if the rules of the OT, like the 10 Commandments or those rules of the book of Levticus, are now sort of obsolete? Do you just go by what Jesus said? Or do the fables (as in morality stories) of the NT also provide the rules by which Christians are supposed to live? Or what? Are there any rules or clear statements of what sin is?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Hi Coloradomtnman - Fishing pretty hard today, huh? Got any bites?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Hi Coloradomtnman - Fishing pretty hard today, huh? Got any bites?

Hey! I haven't attacked anyone on this thread! That hurts BBD. Can't a man change? I oughta neg rep you for that. But I won't because I'm a merciful, forgiving USMB member.

 

[Care4all]

Hi Coloradomtnman - Fishing pretty hard today, huh? Got any bites?

Hey! I haven't attacked anyone on this thread! That hurts BBD. Can't a man change? I oughta neg rep you for that. But I won't because I'm a merciful, forgiving USMB member.

 

[Modbert]

Well...Thanks everyone. That pretty much cleared that up for me.

Now, though, how do you know what is or isn't a sin if the rules of the OT, like the 10 Commandments or those rules of the book of Levticus, are now sort of obsolete? Do you just go by what Jesus said? Or do the fables (as in morality stories) of the NT also provide the rules by which Christians are supposed to live? Or what? Are there any rules or clear statements of what sin is?

Well if you go by what Jesus says, slavery is still acceptable.

Now a days, Christians are SUPPOSE to go by what the Church/Pope say. The Bible is suppose to be rather a example of moral code but you're not suppose to follow everything literally. For example, if we were to take the Bible literally, children who disobey their parents would be killed. Which is why I always find it lulzy when politicians want to use the Bible as a code to make laws by.

 

[AllieBaba]

Slaves in Jesus' time were not the same as slaves held by, say, Muslims. Or the French. Or southerners.

They served a certain time, they were able to hold property, they were protected by the law, they were able to generate income.

Anyway. As you read the bible and get into it more deeply you realize everything in it functions on multiple levels. So while the laws in the book of Leviticus performed the function of practical laws for a nomadic people, when you read them in retrospect from the perspective of the New Testament, they function differently, because you will catch things in there that you don't catch until you know the whole story.

When Jesus came and brought salvation to us, and we were no longer able to access heaven through works and faith, but by grace alone, it changed the purpose of the OT.

 

[Care4all]

we have to follow the 10 commandments...not one was abolished, but the easy way to follow them, is the golden rule, love God with heart body and soul, and love others...treat them as you would want to be treated.

rule of leviticus, exodus etc are not rules for the gentiles....is my understanding

 

[Coloradomtnman]

we have to follow the 10 commandments...not one was abolished, but the easy way to follow them, is the golden rule, love God with heart body and soul, and love others...treat them as you would want to be treated.

rule of leviticus, exodus etc are not rules for the gentiles....is my understanding

Okay, but the 10 Commandments don't cover everything, like homosexuality, beastiality, incest, rape, extortion, assault, slavery, etc. So how do you know what is a sin and what isn't if it's not covered by the 10 Commandments? Just go by the Golden Rule? But then why would homosexuality be a sin? Or incest? Where or how does the Bible deal with those types of acts?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well if you go by what Jesus says, slavery is still acceptable.

Now a days, Christians are SUPPOSE to go by what the Church/Pope say. The Bible is suppose to be rather a example of moral code but you're not suppose to follow everything literally. For example, if we were to take the Bible literally, children who disobey their parents would be killed. Which is why I always find it lulzy when politicians want to use the Bible as a code to make laws by.

Are you a Catholic? How does the Church/Pope decide what is or isn't a sin if they don't go by the Bible?

What about Protestants?

Are you saying that the Bible shouldn't be used to codify into laws? Cause if you are, then I'm saying "Amen, brother!"

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Anyway. As you read the bible and get into it more deeply you realize everything in it functions on multiple levels. So while the laws in the book of Leviticus performed the function of practical laws for a nomadic people, when you read them in retrospect from the perspective of the New Testament, they function differently, because you will catch things in there that you don't catch until you know the whole story.

When Jesus came and brought salvation to us, and we were no longer able to access heaven through works and faith, but by grace alone, it changed the purpose of the OT.

So are you saying that the Bible's rules can change as times and cultures change?

 

[HUGGY]

The New Testament, or both the Old and the New Testaments?

I know, I know. You're thinking, "Oh, God, CMM has started another Christian-bashing thread disguised as an honest inquiry and as soon as I reply he's going to attack me..."

Not this time. I'm actually confused about this. Newby, a Christian I've argued with over and over again, said something that made me think about this. She says she doesn't read the OT. And I thought, but don't Christians live by the 10 Commandments?

I'm confused about this. If you don't go by the OT, do you still follow the 10 Commandments, and if you still follow the 10 Commandments, why not all the rest of Leviticus? If you just adhere to what was written in the NT, why, and why not the OT? What makes the difference? I've read the Bible, but that doesn't mean I studied it and to me it is a really confusing book (probably because I don't believe), but I always thought one was considered to have been written before Christ and the other after and that was the only differentiation.

I don't care about motives for starting a post. People do what they do.

The Old Testament and the New Testament= The Bible. Christians believe the Bible. One good reason for confusion is one that you pointed out, lack of study. One who has not studied, with a serious desire to understand, will not understand.

The Bible is not only for doctrine. II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; " We learn the History of the Israelites and discover that as they were being led by God He had some specific requirements for them. These are written in about 600 specific laws. Just like many other parts of the Old Testament, it is history only, and we can learn from studying it just how God interacted with His people.

We don't throw that teaching out, we see it as part of the beginnings of where Christianity came from.

It is not a pick and choose book. We believe it is all inspired and useful as indicated in II Timothy 3:16. Those who don't study it lose valuable insight, and knowledge. Much of the Christian dostrine comes from the Old Testament, and much of it from the New. However, All of it is consistent between both.

No need to debate this, you already admitted you haven't studied it. You are indeed confused, and I understand that. However, the one thing that stands true in the Old and New Testament is that God does respond to those who seek Him. Some just don't accept His responses.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

Self serving circular logic.

 

[Modbert]

Are you a Catholic? How does the Church/Pope decide what is or isn't a sin if they don't go by the Bible?

What about Protestants?

Are you saying that the Bible shouldn't be used to codify into laws? Cause if you are, then I'm saying "Amen, brother!"

Yes, I am a Catholic.

The Church/Pope do use the bible but with slight variations. For example, they still believe adultery is wrong but don't believe a death sentence should be carried with it. Same goes for the other ten commandments.

I'm unsure about Protestants as I'm not one.

I am saying that the Bible shouldn't be used to make laws. However, the ten commandments are the basis for most law systems out there. Such as Thou Shall not Kill, Thou shall not steal, etc. However, I don't believe the Bible itself should be used in making extensive laws, etc. There is the whole Separation of Church and State aspect as well here in America.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Yes, I am a Catholic.

The Church/Pope do use the bible but with slight variations. For example, they still believe adultery is wrong but don't believe a death sentence should be carried with it. Same goes for the other ten commandments.

Well, how does the Church/Pope know what to vary from in the Bible. What I mean is, why don't they think disobedient children should be killed?

I am saying that the Bible shouldn't be used to make laws. However, the ten commandments are the basis for most law systems out there. Such as Thou Shall not Kill, Thou shall not steal, etc. However, I don't believe the Bible itself should be used in making extensive laws, etc. There is the whole Separation of Church and State aspect as well here in America.

Do you think its the 10 Commandments and not Hammurabai or even the social contract theory (i.e. let's agree that you won't kill me and I won't kill you)? And why can the Commandments sort of be stepped around, like Thou Shalt Not Kill (except in self-defense, times of war, etc.)?