Remembering an American tradgedy

[The Gadfly]

I guess you don't remember this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDc0n79BdLs

Fucking 11 people died. Someone should have gotten the needle for that one.

Yea, I remember it. Anyone been found guilty in a court of law? No. Any indictments against any individuals? No.

Hyperbole is fine.... but it's not a very intelligent response.

And.... didn't the latest report on this fiasco find issues with several companies, and a few government agencies? So, who are you planning to execute for it? Just the head of BP? Are you planning a trial first or shall we just lynch BP executives?

Seriously, you do need to get a better game.

Better game?

What part of 11 people died..don't you get?

Silly legalise crapola doesn't mitigate that.

People should be held responsible when crap like that happens. No one should be able to hide behind a fucking wall of legal protections when their actions result in the death of others.

So what do you want to do, Sallow? Lynch them? I mean, that's the usual way of getting around those messy "legal protections" when they get in the way of "justice", no?

 

[DaGoose]

Tell us how you unfetter a market while still having laws to protect workers?

Free markets give workers the most protection through choice. The differences between today and your example of long ago involved a lot more factors though then free markets against union power.

The reason workplace safety improved is because of the laws passed that mandated it. And one of the biggest factors leading the charge were labor unions.

Workplace safety improved dramatically during the 20th century. Almost 1,500 workers were killed in coal mine accidents in 1900. However, in 1999, the figure was 35. And it was not just coal mines that were unsafe. There were 2,550 railroad workers killed in 1900, compared with 56 in 1999.

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American Labor in the 20th Century

 

[kaz]

All business taxes and regulations could be eliminated entirely and that would do nothing to change the fact that foreign workers would still work for a fraction of their American counterparts.

You're right. But if you apply reason to what you just said, you made a great and accurate case for deregulation. Before regulation, the tradoff is:

Positive: Cheaper labor, broader workforce overseas...

Negative: Culture/language of workers, different time zones, ...

So, with high US regulation you make the reward of escaping that even higher and more worth dealing with the negatives of offshoring. The way to keep American business here is to make it appealing to stay, not put up obstacles to leave because they will figure out ways around that.

 

[kaz]

Tell us how you unfetter a market while still having laws to protect workers?

Free markets give workers the most protection through choice. The differences between today and your example of long ago involved a lot more factors though then free markets against union power.

The reason workplace safety improved is because of the laws passed that mandated it. And one of the biggest factors leading the charge were labor unions.

Workplace safety improved dramatically during the 20th century. Almost 1,500 workers were killed in coal mine accidents in 1900. However, in 1999, the figure was 35. And it was not just coal mines that were unsafe. There were 2,550 railroad workers killed in 1900, compared with 56 in 1999.

.

American Labor in the 20th Century

Gotcha. That's the only difference between 100 years ago and today and if we didn't have unions we'd go back to exactly that. Thank you for edurcatin me.

 

[DaGoose]

Free markets give workers the most protection through choice. The differences between today and your example of long ago involved a lot more factors though then free markets against union power.

The reason workplace safety improved is because of the laws passed that mandated it. And one of the biggest factors leading the charge were labor unions.

Workplace safety improved dramatically during the 20th century. Almost 1,500 workers were killed in coal mine accidents in 1900. However, in 1999, the figure was 35. And it was not just coal mines that were unsafe. There were 2,550 railroad workers killed in 1900, compared with 56 in 1999.

.

American Labor in the 20th Century

Gotcha. That's the only difference between 100 years ago and today and if we didn't have unions we'd go back to exactly that. Thank you for edurcatin me.

Not immediately but definitely that direction. And you're welcome.

.

 

[DaGoose]

All business taxes and regulations could be eliminated entirely and that would do nothing to change the fact that foreign workers would still work for a fraction of their American counterparts.

You're right. But if you apply reason to what you just said, you made a great and accurate case for deregulation. Before regulation, the tradoff is:

Positive: Cheaper labor, broader workforce overseas...

Negative: Culture/language of workers, different time zones, ...

So, with high US regulation you make the reward of escaping that even higher and more worth dealing with the negatives of offshoring. The way to keep American business here is to make it appealing to stay, not put up obstacles to leave because they will figure out ways around that.

Allow me to simplify what you're REALLY saying.........

In order for the US to compete we must lower our wages, safety laws and therefore our standard of living to that of the 3rd world nations.

.

 

[kaz]

All business taxes and regulations could be eliminated entirely and that would do nothing to change the fact that foreign workers would still work for a fraction of their American counterparts.

You're right. But if you apply reason to what you just said, you made a great and accurate case for deregulation. Before regulation, the tradoff is:

Positive: Cheaper labor, broader workforce overseas...

Negative: Culture/language of workers, different time zones, ...

So, with high US regulation you make the reward of escaping that even higher and more worth dealing with the negatives of offshoring. The way to keep American business here is to make it appealing to stay, not put up obstacles to leave because they will figure out ways around that.

Allow me to simplify what you're REALLY saying.........

In order for the US to compete we must lower our wages, safety laws and therefore our standard of living to that of the 3rd world nations.

.

That's not simplified, it's liberalified. Liberalification is the process by which every statement is twisted to justify liberalism. Free markets are going to make workers poor and turn us into a third world country. I do always enjoy a good debate with an informed, knowledgeable, rational liberal, thank you for that exchange. That's what I'm "really" saying. I'd stay away from reality, my friend. It's not your element.

 

[DaGoose]

You're right. But if you apply reason to what you just said, you made a great and accurate case for deregulation. Before regulation, the tradoff is:

Positive: Cheaper labor, broader workforce overseas...

Negative: Culture/language of workers, different time zones, ...

So, with high US regulation you make the reward of escaping that even higher and more worth dealing with the negatives of offshoring. The way to keep American business here is to make it appealing to stay, not put up obstacles to leave because they will figure out ways around that.

Allow me to simplify what you're REALLY saying.........

In order for the US to compete we must lower our wages, safety laws and therefore our standard of living to that of the 3rd world nations.

.

That's not simplified, it's liberalified. Liberalification is the process by which every statement is twisted to justify liberalism. Free markets are going to make workers poor and turn us into a third world country. I do always enjoy a good debate with an informed, knowledgeable, rational liberal, thank you for that exchange. That's what I'm "really" saying. I'd stay away from reality, my friend. It's not your element.

In a totally free, unregulated market you allow businesses dictate any and all decisions regarding wages and working conditions. It's a fallacy to believe they would make any decisions not conducive to profits, including workplace and worker safety.

We already see that happening with Caterpillar and their breaking the UAW in their quest to compete globally. Wages and safety both suffered badly.

.

 

[Sallow]

This is what you are trying to chase the country back into with your union busting ideas.


Without unions sweat shops were everywhere in the US

She's absolutely correct.

 

[editec]

This is what you are trying to chase the country back into with your union busting ideas.


Without unions sweat shops were everywhere in the US

That is pathetic, even for you. To accuse the right wing of wanting dangerous working conditions is nonsense... but it is, sadly, what we have come to expect from people who create links between the right wing and any incident or tragedy, simply to score political points. Personally, I find using the dead for political gain to be a disgraceful and disrespectful thing to do. However, I support your right to be a disgraceful and disrespectful hypocrite.

Pointing out what working conditions were like when there was NO REGULATION is no sin.

Noting that so many posters here have been advocating a return to those days, also no sin.

IF you believe that it is immoral for GOVERNMENT to regulate business and the workplace, you believe that we ought to be going BACK to the state of affairs that resulted in the TRIANGLE FIRE.

 

[Claudette]

I always enjoy a good liberal circle jerk. Everyone always cums to the same conclusion...

I'm with you Kaz.

Let me get this straight.

If in 1911 that factory had been unionized the tragedy wouldn't have happened??

WOW nice to know that no one would have dropped a match or a cigarette back then.

TDM does post some bullshit, bullshit. Jeeze.

 

[FuelRod]

This is what you are trying to chase the country back into with your union busting ideas.


Without unions sweat shops were everywhere in the US

Yes because 100 years ago you had all the same tools for informing about such conditions as you do now.

 

[Sallow]

I always enjoy a good liberal circle jerk. Everyone always cums to the same conclusion...

I'm with you Kaz.

Let me get this straight.

If in 1911 that factory had been unionized the tragedy wouldn't have happened??

WOW nice to know that no one would have dropped a match or a cigarette back then.

TDM does post some bullshit, bullshit. Jeeze.

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

 

[Avatar4321]

You want unions busted and their contracts nullified by republican politicains

Now why would we want corrupt dishonest organizations to stop using the American worker and then use their money to attack the freedom and liberty offered in the United States?

Why would anyone want more jobs, lower prices, and the US actually producing things?

 

[Claudette]

I always enjoy a good liberal circle jerk. Everyone always cums to the same conclusion...

I'm with you Kaz.

Let me get this straight.

If in 1911 that factory had been unionized the tragedy wouldn't have happened??

WOW nice to know that no one would have dropped a match or a cigarette back then.

TDM does post some bullshit, bullshit. Jeeze.

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

This was 1911. Things were way different back then.

So if the factory had been unionized the doors wouldn't have been locked is what your saying?? Correct??

Your assuming that working conditions would have been different with a UNion but you can't know for sure that anything would have changed. This was 1911 after all.

It would be nice to think so but who can know for sure??

 

[DaGoose]

I always enjoy a good liberal circle jerk. Everyone always cums to the same conclusion...

I'm with you Kaz.

Let me get this straight.

If in 1911 that factory had been unionized the tragedy wouldn't have happened??

WOW nice to know that no one would have dropped a match or a cigarette back then.

TDM does post some bullshit, bullshit. Jeeze.

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

That is correct. Also...........

The fire led to legislation requiring improved factory safety standards and helped spur the growth of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, which fought for better working conditions for sweatshop workers.

The factory normally employed about 500 workers, mostly young immigrant women, who worked nine hours a day on weekdays plus seven hours on Saturdays

And this was probably their usual work week since overtime laws were not in place yet.

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before the 1930s children were routinely exploited in a variety of settings throughout American society. Frequently beginning their working lives before their tenth birthday, children worked in hazardous jobs at mines, mills, factories, sweatshops, and on farms, with little or no wages. Labor laws did not exist, and the common perception of the ease with which children were manipulated made them targets for a variety of rights violations.

I also wonder how many children were exploited and died due to the lack of Child Labor Laws?

Timeline of young people's rights in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yet that's what some people want us to go back to?

.

 

[Sallow]

You're right. But if you apply reason to what you just said, you made a great and accurate case for deregulation. Before regulation, the tradoff is:

Positive: Cheaper labor, broader workforce overseas...

Negative: Culture/language of workers, different time zones, ...

So, with high US regulation you make the reward of escaping that even higher and more worth dealing with the negatives of offshoring. The way to keep American business here is to make it appealing to stay, not put up obstacles to leave because they will figure out ways around that.

Allow me to simplify what you're REALLY saying.........

In order for the US to compete we must lower our wages, safety laws and therefore our standard of living to that of the 3rd world nations.

.

That's not simplified, it's liberalified. Liberalification is the process by which every statement is twisted to justify liberalism. Free markets are going to make workers poor and turn us into a third world country. I do always enjoy a good debate with an informed, knowledgeable, rational liberal, thank you for that exchange. That's what I'm "really" saying. I'd stay away from reality, my friend. It's not your element.

Yeah..basically. Free unregulated markets have a tendency toward monopoly. It's just about the cheapest way to do business. And labor in this sort of paradigm is seen as necessary..but should be compensated as little as possible.

 

[Sallow]

I'm with you Kaz.

Let me get this straight.

If in 1911 that factory had been unionized the tragedy wouldn't have happened??

WOW nice to know that no one would have dropped a match or a cigarette back then.

TDM does post some bullshit, bullshit. Jeeze.

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

This was 1911. Things were way different back then.

So if the factory had been unionized the doors wouldn't have been locked is what your saying?? Correct??

Your assuming that working conditions would have been different with a UNion but you can't know for sure that anything would have changed. This was 1911 after all.

It would be nice to think so but who can know for sure??

Yep. That's exactly what I am saying. It was Unions that introduced the safety regulations we now enjoy.

I know for sure this would have not happened had a Union been in place.

 

[Claudette]

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

This was 1911. Things were way different back then.

So if the factory had been unionized the doors wouldn't have been locked is what your saying?? Correct??

Your assuming that working conditions would have been different with a UNion but you can't know for sure that anything would have changed. This was 1911 after all.

It would be nice to think so but who can know for sure??

Yep. That's exactly what I am saying. It was Unions that introduced the safety regulations we now enjoy.

I know for sure this would have not happened had a Union been in place.

You think. You can't know what would have happened in 1915.

We now have both State and Federal laws OSHA Included to protect workers and their rights. Why does anyone still need a Union??

Oh Yeah. I forgot. A Union supports any Democrat running for office. Jeeze. How could I forget that.

 

[FuelRod]

No..it would not have happened. The workers were locked in by the management.

This was 1911. Things were way different back then.

So if the factory had been unionized the doors wouldn't have been locked is what your saying?? Correct??

Your assuming that working conditions would have been different with a UNion but you can't know for sure that anything would have changed. This was 1911 after all.

It would be nice to think so but who can know for sure??

Yep. That's exactly what I am saying. It was Unions that introduced the safety regulations we now enjoy.

I know for sure this would have not happened had a Union been in place.

True.
Many things outlive their usefulness however. Unions among them.