POLL: Which scenario spreads racism more quickly?

[Slade3200]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

 

[Olde Europe]

I agree on all points. I also wonder why posters would advocate the media putting their thumbs on the scale. If the media shouldn't report white nationalist gatherings, due to their potential influence, why should it report provocative, dishonest, or bigoted tweets from the CinC? Do media critics think every report, story or interview should be examined in light of those who may be influenced by the report? If so, no more coverage of shootings, riots, sexual misconduct, or hate crimes.

That should leave the media right where Trumpeters want them - printing happy news and recipes.

I agree, by and large. There is a caveat, though. Journalists / editors decide every day on what (not) to cover, and these decisions, and the criteria for them, matter. A lot. (Just think about how Americans' impression of their oh-so benevolent empire has been brought about, spending 10% of the federal budget on foreign aid, and all...) Quite naturally, whichever falls too far out of the mainstream of the respective publication's audience most likely gets dropped, and whatever sells papers or garners attention will be amply covered, and, of course, any influence a piece may have might be considered as well.

There may well be a point in thinking about a different, or amended, set of criteria in case of a national emergency, for instance, in case the "national narrative" (for lack of a better word) is so far off the rails as to damage, undermine, or even destroy the body politic. That, however, is extremely dangerous territory, and it's a decision for the papers themselves to make. Certainly, politicians should stay away from even publicly thinking about any such change of course.

In a way (assuming it's not just declaratory), something like that might already be happening. Think about the Washington Post's new motto, "Democracy dies in darkness" (paraphrasing). That, at least tentatively, seems to accept the responsibility for coverage that serves to protect American democratic rule - over and above merely selling papers.

 

[Slade3200]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

 

[martybegan]

I actually agree with you (as I did when you brought it up on another thread). I think it gives the lesser lights among us oxygen; I think it gives them a platform that their stances do not deserve.

Thanks ... I still don't really know if the coverage is going to make anyone more of an idiot than they already were ...

.​

Blaming the media for covering the racists and not the racists themselves seems like a strange stance.

The blame is for trying to inflate their influence in an attempt to link them to anyone to the right of Mitt Romney.

They are playing with fire, really stupid fire.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

 

[Slade3200]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP assumes that a person who is not a racist will become a racist if he or she is confronted by stories about racists in the media.

How likely is that to happen? Do stories about racists in the media push the OP toward racism?

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

 

[Slade3200]

I think one negative effect of the media coverage and attention that the OP was speaking to, is that it drums up extremists from both sides. People with racist views are now more embolden to think, speak, and act out on those tendencies where as otherwise they would remain dormant. On the other side it draws attention to a serious problem that still exists in our country.

What’s your POV on how the media attention effects the situation?

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

 

[Olde Europe]

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

I think you are somewhat right on how "to change a hater". Yet, since that "bond" has to be a two-way street, it's probably clear that the hater going into that bond is already somewhat willing to see the light. Most will not change, and many not even if someone of the hated group saves their life. That's just how it is.

So, if changing them is not an option (except for a few gifted individuals saving souls), the task is to contain the rot, no? For that, you have to have the haters out in the open - otherwise how do you even know there is something to contain, and where to find it? - but not in a way that would normalize hateful behavior, so that others would feel encouraged to adopt it. That, I believe, circumscribes the puzzle, and I have yet to see a good way to solve it.

 

[LoneLaugher]

It tells the story. That may impact the number of people who show up...as it did this past weekend.

But it does not turn tolerant, thinking people into racists. It does not spread racism.

If it brings out anyone...it is those who have always been closeted racists who see a chance to release their pent up rage. Fuck them. Let's see them in daylight.

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

Mocking. Public disdain. Difficulty finding acceptance.

 

[Slade3200]

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

I think you are somewhat right on how "to change a hater". Yet, since that "bond" has to be a two-way street, it's probably clear that the hater going into that bond is already somewhat willing to see the light. Most will not change, and many not even if someone of the hated group saves their life. That's just how it is.

So, if changing them is not an option (except for a few gifted individuals saving souls), the task is to contain the rot, no? For that, you have to have the haters out in the open - otherwise how do you even know there is something to contain, and where to find it? - but not in a way that would normalize hateful behavior, so that others would feel encouraged to adopt it. That, I believe, circumscribes the puzzle, and I have yet to see a good way to solve it.

You make many good points. I guess my question is more directed towards goals that effect positive change. If we want to call out the haters, expose them and shine a spotlight on them then what is the intended goal? How does it play out and how does it effect the overall problem?

 

[Slade3200]

What is the intended goal of provoking closet racists or even blatant racists to come out?

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

Mocking. Public disdain. Difficulty finding acceptance.

To what end? Are you trying to change their minds? Discourage others from following their path? Or just trying to make them feel like shit for having racist views? Or something else?

 

[LoneLaugher]

It isn't a goal. It may be a by-product. It doesn't hurt. Lets see who they are.

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

Mocking. Public disdain. Difficulty finding acceptance.

To what end? Are you trying to change their minds? Discourage others from following their path? Or just trying to make them feel like shit for having racist views? Or something else?

All of the above.

 

[impuretrash]

Geez Mac, you're so conceited. You should run for president and bring about world peace or something.

 

[Slade3200]

Ok, but why do you want to see who they are?

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

Mocking. Public disdain. Difficulty finding acceptance.

To what end? Are you trying to change their minds? Discourage others from following their path? Or just trying to make them feel like shit for having racist views? Or something else?

All of the above.

You obviously don’t care to engage. Get back to me if you ever feel like digging in

 

[Olde Europe]

I think you are somewhat right on how "to change a hater". Yet, since that "bond" has to be a two-way street, it's probably clear that the hater going into that bond is already somewhat willing to see the light. Most will not change, and many not even if someone of the hated group saves their life. That's just how it is.

So, if changing them is not an option (except for a few gifted individuals saving souls), the task is to contain the rot, no? For that, you have to have the haters out in the open - otherwise how do you even know there is something to contain, and where to find it? - but not in a way that would normalize hateful behavior, so that others would feel encouraged to adopt it. That, I believe, circumscribes the puzzle, and I have yet to see a good way to solve it.

You make many good points. I guess my question is more directed towards goals that effect positive change. If we want to call out the haters, expose them and shine a spotlight on them then what is the intended goal? How does it play out and how does it effect the overall problem?

I fear, I cannot answer your questions. Haters develop hatred during their childhood, and are hard to change later, and only on an individual basis, usually not amenable to political efforts. I thought I addressed that above. The outer limit of "positive change" is to create societal rules and standards that make clear that adopting the haters' hateful ways is deemed unacceptable. This is where the public rejection of hateful behavior, including hateful rhetoric, has its place. That can be strengthened in case employers, and public employers in particular, ensure that racist, hateful behavior and language are not tolerated, even short of lawbreaking.

That's what I mean with "contain the rot". Other than that, I fear we'll have to live with whatever grows up in our midst.

 

[LoneLaugher]

This is going nowhere fast. I'm not invested in this idea. It doesn't drive my thinking on the matter.

But, why not see who they are? Maybe they will face some real consequences for being bigots? Maybe they will gain an education.

I don’t think they are going to change their minds, especially when they are met with anger and hate... that will just fuel more anger and hate. The only way to change a hater in my opinion, is to have their “adversary” form a healthy bond and relationship with them. Holding torches and throwing rocks isn’t going to do that.

What kind of consequences do you want to impose on people who express hate towards others race/religion/gender/or sexual orientation?

Mocking. Public disdain. Difficulty finding acceptance.

To what end? Are you trying to change their minds? Discourage others from following their path? Or just trying to make them feel like shit for having racist views? Or something else?

All of the above.

You obviously don’t care to engage. Get back to me if you ever feel like digging in

I'm looking for someone to engage on the bullshit theory that media coverage and counterprotesters showing up to oppose white supremacists creates new racists.

I think you and I agree that it does not.

 

[Olde Europe]

I'm looking for someone to engage on the bullshit theory that media coverage and counterprotesters showing up to oppose white supremacists creates new racists.

I think you and I agree that it does not.

I wish I had your certainty.

Assume a calm, disciplined demonstration by racists, attacked by ill-groomed, violent, inarticulate counter-protesters. That may not exactly create "new racists", but ...

 

[LoneLaugher]

I'm looking for someone to engage on the bullshit theory that media coverage and counterprotesters showing up to oppose white supremacists creates new racists.

I think you and I agree that it does not.

I wish I had your certainty.

Assume a calm, disciplined demonstration by racists, attacked by ill-groomed, violent, inarticulate counter-protesters. That may not exactly create "new racists", but ...

That's not what happens. That's a RW fantasy.

Still, that would not compel a person to turn into a hateful bigot.