POLL: Conservatives & Progressives: What is your goal here?

[JoeB131]

Other than him, the rest of you have done nothing more than your standard deflect/pivot/attack strategy.

Illustrating my point, yet again. Thanks, again.

there's so much time we should waste writing out answers if you ignore opinions that don't support your premises.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

 

[ChrisL]

Why is it that the "conservatives" eagerly post responses to Mac's question while "progressives" decide to simply mock the questioner?

What possible reasons could there be?

Because progressives are inherently dishonest and bad people.

 

[Mac1958]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

I would definitely go with the second one. Which is why I no longer waste my time on them here.

You can keep trying to get my attention if you'd like, though.
.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Why is it that the "conservatives" eagerly post responses to Mac's question while "progressives" decide to simply mock the questioner?

What possible reasons could there be?

Because progressives are inherently dishonest and bad people.

Oh? Is that the case, Mac?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Jobs and the Economy.


The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd

We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.

And how do you propose to do that, tax the wealthy even more? So government gets more money and the "middle-class" still makes the same. You support job creation? How do you support that, by making more government regulations against them, by having the highest corporate tax rate in the world, by supporting unions that chased millions of jobs out of the country as it is?

Criminal Justice.

They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation

We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.

Last year we had over 50,000 overdose deaths in the US--a new record for those kinds of deaths. Yeah, I would say drugs ruin lives: ruin lives of the drug user, ruing the lives of their families, ruing the lives of those who get killed in gang wars. And those are just the people that get killed over drugs. There are many more lives ruined by people who are hooked on them.

Undocumented Aliens

They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country

We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.

They do have a path to citizenship, it's called waiting in line like all the other people that want to come here. If they are so worried about their children, why did they have children in a country they knew they could get kicked out of any day?

If I robbed a bank seven years ago, but just got caught today, should I be given a pass because between the time I robbed the bank and today, I had three children and started a family? Of course not, I go to jail regardless. I knew that I was running from the law when I decided to have kids.

There is no law that states kids have to stay in the US because their parents are forced to leave. Take your kids with you. Business people do it every day in this country. Some just decide they wish to live somewhere else and take their family with them.

The Social Safety Net

They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.

Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.

Sure you can have it both ways. If you don't make enough money, get training for a career and make more money. Work more hours. Start your own business. Here is a good place to start. Some companies will not only train you for your job and license, but pay you while you learn:

Truck drivers are running more miles and hauling more freight than ever, in part because of a driver shortage. It's been a growing issue in the industry for years, and much of it can be attributed to an aging workforce. The average age of a truck driver is 49, and many of them are now retiring. This, combined with a lack of qualified drivers and industry turnover, in general, has some projections showing a need for 100,000 drivers heading into in 2017, according to Driver Solutions.

State of Trucking for 2017: The Driver Shortage

The Democrats want more people on government assistance. The more government dependents, the more likely Democrat voters. When DumBama got into the white house, he doubled the food stamp role. He also started Commie care, another government dependency program. Between Commie Care and food stamps, they created over 40 million more new government dependents, and it was no accident either, it was deliberate.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

I would definitely go with the second one. Which is why I no longer waste my time on them here.

You can keep trying to get my attention if you'd like, though.
.

Excellent. You've finally offered an opinion. And it is that the progressives here, yours truly included, are too nasty and childish to have a discussion with you.

That is perfect.

 

[Mac1958]

Fascinating how I've had a few interesting conversations on this thread, and none of them have been with the "progressives".

They've all just tried to make it about me, illustrating the point of my thread perfectly.

The conservatives have tossed out some interesting ideas, even though they know I disagree with them on a majority of issues.

That happens pretty consistently here. There's just something about "progressives", they just don't like being civil.
.

Requires thinking at a higher level than base instinct and raw emotion. Pretty much an evolutionary dead end for progressives.

This honest liberal gets it, and about 3:30 he makes an interesting point, that "progressives" don't debate any more. They just toss out names and insults, because it has worked so well for so long.
.

I could have a better debate with the dog than most here including you, Mac in the middle.

Sounds great, thanks.
.

Here you go Mac, use this...

View attachment 133807

.

 

[ChrisL]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

I would definitely go with the second one. Which is why I no longer waste my time on them here.

You can keep trying to get my attention if you'd like, though.
.

I definitely go with option number 2 as well.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

I would definitely go with the second one. Which is why I no longer waste my time on them here.

You can keep trying to get my attention if you'd like, though.
.

I definitely go with option number 2 as well.

We are really making progress.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?

I think when the right let Trump and his Pepe Brigade speak for them, they abdicated any sensible consideration of their positions.

You see, it used to be that when a party shit the bed and nominated a nut, enough people crossed party lines to keep that guy out of office. Goldwater in 1964 and McGovern in 1972 are fine examples. People still thought LBJ and Nixon were shady, and ran them out of office in due course, but fanaticism was rejected.

Now, the one thing you are on and on and on about is how we've become too polarized, and you are right. The Democrat has always gotten at least 48% of the vote in the last six elections. the Republican has gotten at least 45% of the vote in the last five elections. -

Again, trump did worse than Romney or Bush and little better than McCain, but enough bleed to third parties put him over the top.

Do I think there are a lot of decent Republicans who still believe in limited government and fiscal responsibility and other solid conservative values? Yup. Do they reject Trump's racism, misogyny and authoritarianism? Nope.

"As long as I get to gut Medicaid, who cares how many Mexicans get rounded up!" - that's the problem with the "von Papen" Republicans.

Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?

I think the goal is to expose their racism, misogyny and homophobia, lest it become acceptable. Again, I know you get all freaked out when people make Hitler comparisons, but Hitler didn't start out on day one shipping Jews off to the camps. He slowly stripped them of their humanity. He slowly squelched all the opposition forces. Sometimes it just takes someone to say "no".

If someone is going to get on here and try to rationalize Islamophobia, I'm not going to care if he claims he voted for Hillary. that person is "complicit" as the first daughter likes to say.

 

[JoeB131]

Please note, Mac will ignore the above because it doesn't fit in his premise of "The partisans are all mean to me!"

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.

Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.

I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......

Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights

Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true

Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.

Jobs and the Economy.


The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd

We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.

Criminal Justice.

They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation

We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.

Undocumented Aliens

They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country

We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.

Obama Care

They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage

Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.

LGBT Folks

On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.

Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.

The Social Safety Net

They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.

Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.

Big government.

Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??

No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people

Legalization of drugs

They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!

Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.

Thank you. A couple of questions:

Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?

Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.

1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encounters

2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.

 

[Mac1958]

Mac's little Pavlov's Dogs, always making it about lil' ol' me.

My point, proven, over and over and over.

I really am Da Man. I wub me.


.

 

[ChrisL]

Mac, why is it that you are able to have multi-post discussions, which rarely bare fruit of any kind, with "conservatives" in these threads but rarely get beyond a terse post or two, which never bear fruit of any kind, with "progressives"?

Are the progressives stupid? Are they just too nasty and childish to have an adult conversation?

I would definitely go with the second one. Which is why I no longer waste my time on them here.

You can keep trying to get my attention if you'd like, though.
.

Excellent. You've finally offered an opinion. And it is that the progressives here, yours truly included, are too nasty and childish to have a discussion with you.

That is perfect.

Thank you for your admission. You are right! We are making some progress! Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

 

[JoeB131]

Mac's little Pavlov's Dogs, always making it about lil' ol' me.

My point, proven, over and over and over.

I really am Da Man. I wub me.


.

yes, you do. If you actually answered someone's points, we might even be a fraction as impressed as you are with yourself.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

well, no, it didn't. That's the point. Besides giving us awful presidents like Trump, Bush and Hayes that the people didn't want, it perverts the system. The awful two-party system that no one seems to like is an offshoot of the Electoral College. We whine all day about this being a "lesser of two evils", but the fact is, the EC makes it impossible for a third party to ever get any traction. Instead, the best a third party does is act as a spoiler, which is exactly what happened this year, as well as 2000, 1996, 1992, 1980, 1968, and so on.

The Electoral College has nothing to do with the two party system. Third parties don't stand a chance no matter what system is used. People vote against the opposing candidate and voting third party is throwing your vote away. If you vote third party, you may be giving the election to the person you want to keep out.

Did Hillary run a bad campaign? Yup. Was she a bad candidate? Yup.

None of that excuses the system letting a mentally unstable man like Trump take the presidency when the people said no by 3 million votes. Keep in mind, the Founding Slave Rapists wanted the EC to prevent EXACTLY this kind of thing from happening. That the electors would be smarter than the voters and correct their screwup. It didn't happen, though. The voters got it right, the EC got it wrong.

Shit, dude, 100 days in, and they are ALREADY talking impeachment and everyone is lawyering up!!

No, the EC was designed so that places like California, New York and yes, your town of Chicago don't have control over the entire country. It's the same reason we have two Senators in each state regardless of the population or size. It's called equal representation.

 

[Mac1958]

So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.

Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.

I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......

Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights

Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true

Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.

Jobs and the Economy.


The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd

We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.

Criminal Justice.

They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation

We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.

Undocumented Aliens

They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country

We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.

Obama Care

They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage

Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.

LGBT Folks

On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.

Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.

The Social Safety Net

They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.

Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.

Big government.

Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??

No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people

Legalization of drugs

They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!

Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.

Thank you. A couple of questions:

Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?

Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.

1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encounters

2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.

It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.

When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.

 

[JoeB131]

The Electoral College has nothing to do with the two party system. Third parties don't stand a chance no matter what system is used. People vote against the opposing candidate and voting third party is throwing your vote away. If you vote third party, you may be giving the election to the person you want to keep out.

Sigh. Other countries have third and fourth parties, and they are just fine. In fact, a third party is sometimes needed to form a government.

Again, much like prisons, gun control and socialized medicine, the rest of the world has figured this out.

No, the EC was designed so that places like California, New York and yes, your town of Chicago don't have control over the entire country. It's the same reason we have two Senators in each state regardless of the population or size. It's called equal representation.

But it's not equal representation if you give Wyoming three times the voting power as California. That's just fucking nuts.

If more people live in California, NY and chicago, then they SHOULD control the country.

 

[JoeB131]

When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.

well, maybe sometimes it is.

When you elect a guy who calls Mexicans "rapists', talks about grabbing a woman by the pussy, and wants to deprive millions of people of their human right because some members of their religion commit bad acts, saying something like 'Well, he makes a fair point about ObamaCare", really doesn't cut it.

Or to use another Hitler Analogy that you hate, hey, the AutoBahn was a pretty good idea... but the War and the Holocaust kind of overshadowed that for some reason.