Pointing out that many mass shooters obeyed anti gunners gun laws....offensive....

[2aguy]

Yes....many of the mass shooters passed all the gun laws that the anti gunners have bitched and moaned about and which were passed to stop mass shooters...along with other criminals.......

In particular....the gabby giffords shooter passed a background check to get his gun.....and pointing this out is apparently rude and offensive.....which is a typical tactic by anti gunners when the laws they pass are shown to be stupid and inneffective.....well...that and lying.....another tactic by anti gunners....

Slate Not Fair to Say Gabby Giffords Attacker Passed Background Check - Breitbart




Hmmmmm....and here is just a short list of mass shooters who got background checks....no gun shows or private sales for them.......legal background checks......

Yes they are often your law abiding gun owner gone bad. Lives would have been saved if loughner had a smaller magazine.

Brain.....sorry, not true....and one guy out of over 320 million people does not set policy......

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

 

[M14 Shooter]

How is that not "making it harder" to exercise my rights?

It is impossible to argue that it isn't.
Meanwhile, Joe Thug meets a guy in an alley and buys a gun illegally; nothing proposed by the anti-gun loons, supposedly to prevent this sort of thing, will ever prevent this sort of thing.
.

 

[2aguy]

2 facts here:
1: it is impossible to enact a law that will prevent someone from breaking the law
2: Anti-gun loons don't care about any of that, they just want to make it harder for the law abiding to exercise their right to arms.

More evidence that M14 can only argue from ignorance, emotion and/or dishonesty. Usually you get the package deal.

Nobody wants to make it harder to exercise a "right". I think what they want is to make it harder to exercise a fantasy. Specifically that comic book cartoon shoot-em-up violence fantasy that we get indoctrinated with from infancy. Wailing about "right to arms" to defend mass shooters is a flaming cop-out. It ain't about "right to arms". It never was.

They already have. In NYC I have to spend over $800 of my own money, and prove to the NYPD I have a "need" to get a concealed carry permit.
Even for a home permit the cost is over $400 and it takes months to get one. Meanwhile a retired cop has his own CHECKMARK to pass most of the restrictions, and of course, buddies of the politicians can get bypassed through the system.

How is that not "making it harder" to exercise my rights?

It may be, in effect -- my point is that isn't the intent.
The poster posted, quote, "they just want to make it harder for the law abiding to exercise their right to arms" --- which speaks of intent. And the intent he posits is a blatant strawman.

Obviously it is neither a "right to arms", nor any infringement thereof, that is killing any innocent bystanders. He's deliberately misstated the issue because he can't address the real one. And I called him on it.

No....they want to keep people from owning guns...you may not have that agenda, but the people pushing these things thru politicians to create these laws have that agenda......and yes.....too many times they create laws that have the effect of banning guns without having to have a law....magazine bans are one of the best ways to do it....because you ban the standard magazine...and you render a legal gun useless.....

 

[ClosedCaption]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

 

[Brain357]

Yes they are often your law abiding gun owner gone bad. Lives would have been saved if loughner had a smaller magazine.

Brain.....sorry, not true....and one guy out of over 320 million people does not set policy......

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

 

[2aguy]

Here....all these good people needed more than 2 bullets...and many more than 10.......so no...a magazine ban is horrible idea....pointless, useless at stopping crime or mass shooting....and I won't stand for it and will vote to stop it...

not one more gun, bullet, magazine or piece of equipment will be surrendered to the anti gun nuts....

Woman shoots 12 times, has to reload....

Report Woman unloads reloads on alleged intruder

********************************

Enemy Within The Jim Patterson Incident American Handgunner

hit guy 5 times to stop...

Also....prosectued though cleared by police

*************************************

Masaad ayoob mag ban hearing testimony includes 3 cases where more than 3 rounds fired...

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/li..._032508_062614-Krieger-Opinion-Outfitters.pdf

Massad Ayoob, identified only three anecdotal instances in which individuals engaging

28Case 1:13-cv-01300-MSK-MJW Document 159 Filed 06/26/14 USDC Colorado Page 29 of 50

The first incident involved a gun shop owner who lived next door to the shop. One night, carloads of people drove through his storefront to steal guns. In defending his property, the shop owner used a fully automatic M-16 and a fully automatic 9mm submachine gun to fire over 100 rounds. One perpetrator was killed, others were injured, and all were captured and convicted.
The second incident involved a man who owned a watch shop in Los Angeles and who had been involved in a series of “gun fights.” (Presumably, he had been robbed repeatedly.) The shop owner began keeping multiple pistols hidden in his shop. Mr. Ayoob recalled that at least one of the gun fights “went beyond” 17 or 19 shots before the last of the multiple perpetrators was down or had fled.
The third incident involved a Virginia jewelry store that was robbed by “two old gangster type guys.” The two brothers who owned the store successfully defended themselves and their property using multiple revolvers (not semiautomatic weapons) that were kept behind the counter. Mr. Ayoob did not specify how many rounds were fired in that incident.
********************************
Dr who brought gun into gun free zone shoots patient 3 times
Armed Doctor Opens Fire and Stops Active Shooter in Pennsylvania Hospital
******************************
Woman shoots home invader 5 times...
Woman hiding with kids shoots intruder www.wsbtv.com
clerk shoots robber 10 times after robber shoots him in leg
Armed Robber Shoots Store Owner in the Leg Store Owner Then Shoots Robber 10 Times

Home invasion....30-40 rounds fired...

Why You NEED an AR-15 with a 30 Round Magazine GunsAmerica Digest

You sure like your criminals well armed.
A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

Brain....they aren't high capacity...they are standard issue magazines....another lie by anti gunners....and the other half......didn't....so now...you ban standard magaizines...and the other half will still commit mass shootings with 10 round magazines......they are so stupid.....well not stupid....they know exactly what they want and how to get it.....

 

[Brain357]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

From the same people who want to make abortions illegal... And same sex marriage...

 

[2aguy]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

No....you have the laws we have on the books........and when they are broken you arrest that guy.....you don't ban things over 320 million people can use without breaking the law....what is it with you guys and wanting to be Tom Cruise....you want a "Minority Report" movie in real life where you zip line down to stop these guys before they commit their crimes....you are just nuts.....

 

[2aguy]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

From the same people who want to make abortions illegal... And same sex marriage...

Abortions kill people.........you know, you guys have bitched and moaned about how many people guns kill and yet you want to allow women to kill their babies.....with no other reason than they don't want them.........

 

[2aguy]

Brain.....sorry, not true....and one guy out of over 320 million people does not set policy......

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

The Kleck survey.....they all involve interaction with another human being...that was one of the specific questions asked in his study...........so anytime you interact with a criminal...it is a violent crime........

 

[ClosedCaption]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

From the same people who want to make abortions illegal... And same sex marriage...

Abortions are legal in Israel

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

No....you have the laws we have on the books........and when they are broken you arrest that guy.....you don't ban things over 320 million people can use without breaking the law....what is it with you guys and wanting to be Tom Cruise....you want a "Minority Report" movie in real life where you zip line down to stop these guys before they commit their crimes....you are just nuts.....

Yes please go on about what movies I want life to be like...its such a compelling argument

 

[Brain357]

Oh boy, not another "laws dont work" thread. Why not just get rid of all laws since criminals dont follow them?

From the same people who want to make abortions illegal... And same sex marriage...

Abortions kill people.........you know, you guys have bitched and moaned about how many people guns kill and yet you want to allow women to kill their babies.....with no other reason than they don't want them.........

Ah so laws work when you want them right?

 

[2aguy]

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

The Kleck survey.....they all involve interaction with another human being...that was one of the specific questions asked in his study...........so anytime you interact with a criminal...it is a violent crime...


The other 17-18 gun surveys...look them up.....

 

[2aguy]

Brain.....sorry, not true....and one guy out of over 320 million people does not set policy......

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

brain.....he killed 26 people, and he reloaded often......then he killed himself before the police arrived.....magazine limits would not have stopped him....he murdered his mother to get those guns...and would have broken the law on magazines as well.........

 

[Brain357]

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

The Kleck survey.....they all involve interaction with another human being...that was one of the specific questions asked in his study...........so anytime you interact with a criminal...it is a violent crime........

No they aren't. You are making that up. Show where Kleck claims all his defenses are violent.

 

[Brain357]

You are comparing one guy to other mass shooters, not the entire population. And as I've shown you before there is good evidence for many others.

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

brain.....he killed 26 people, and he reloaded often......then he killed himself before the police arrived.....magazine limits would not have stopped him....he murdered his mother to get those guns...and would have broken the law on magazines as well.........

And kids escaped while he reloaded. More reloading, more kids lives saved.

 

[2aguy]

The Kleck survey specifically asked about person to person contact between the criminal and the victim....and came out with the 2.5 million number....the 1.6 comes from averaging other studies.....with Kleck's

 

[Pogo]

2 facts here:
1: it is impossible to enact a law that will prevent someone from breaking the law
2: Anti-gun loons don't care about any of that, they just want to make it harder for the law abiding to exercise their right to arms.

More evidence that M14 can only argue from ignorance, emotion and/or dishonesty. Usually you get the package deal.

Nobody wants to make it harder to exercise a "right". I think what they want is to make it harder to exercise a fantasy. Specifically that comic book cartoon shoot-em-up violence fantasy that we get indoctrinated with from infancy. Wailing about "right to arms" to defend mass shooters is a flaming cop-out. It ain't about "right to arms". It never was.

They already have. In NYC I have to spend over $800 of my own money, and prove to the NYPD I have a "need" to get a concealed carry permit.
Even for a home permit the cost is over $400 and it takes months to get one. Meanwhile a retired cop has his own CHECKMARK to pass most of the restrictions, and of course, buddies of the politicians can get bypassed through the system.

How is that not "making it harder" to exercise my rights?

It may be, in effect -- my point is that isn't the intent.
The poster posted, quote, "they just want to make it harder for the law abiding to exercise their right to arms" --- which speaks of intent. And the intent he posits is a blatant strawman.

Obviously it is neither a "right to arms", nor any infringement thereof, that is killing any innocent bystanders. He's deliberately misstated the issue because he can't address the real one. And I called him on it.

No....they want to keep people from owning guns...you may not have that agenda, but the people pushing these things thru politicians to create these laws have that agenda......and yes.....too many times they create laws that have the effect of banning guns without having to have a law....magazine bans are one of the best ways to do it....because you ban the standard magazine...and you render a legal gun useless.....

Simply owning a gun doesn't kill anybody either. There would be no point in that.

Again, the intent, that M14 deliberately misstated in a blatant Appeal to Emotion/Strawman, is to address gun violence. However misguided and ineffective that approach is, it's completely disingenuous to portray an honest intent of curtailing violence as if it were an intent of "infringing gun rights" or "banning gun ownership" --- neither of which directly cause anybody's death and neither of which is the point of it.

It's simply a dishonest way of setting up the argument. When you can only argue from dishonesty, you don't have an argument.

 

[Brain357]

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

The Kleck survey.....they all involve interaction with another human being...that was one of the specific questions asked in his study...........so anytime you interact with a criminal...it is a violent crime...


The other 17-18 gun surveys...look them up.....

I have read many, and you are the only one foolishly claiming they are all violent crimes.

 

[2aguy]

And other mass shooters didn't use 30 round magazines either....the Santa barbara shooter or example complied with every single gun law in California...including using 10 round magazines......

And even with all these mass shooters....only 8-9,000 gun murders a year in a country of over 320 million people with over 320 million guns in private hands and most of the gun murders committed by gang members in cities.....

8-9,000....out of a country of over 320 million people......less than car accidents.....

And 1.6 million times a year people use guns to stop violent criminal attack and save lives and many if not most of them also have standard magazines..........that they used to stop violent criminal attack.........

so no......not a problem....

And kids escaped at newtown when he reloaded. If like killers to reload more often so more people escape.

1.6 is not an accurate number for all the reasons I've given before. Also they aren't all violent crimes, few are actually. Your wording is deceiving.

No....at Sandy Hook he reloaded often....and still killed 26 people...

And the 1.6 million is the only accurate number on the actual topic of guns used in self defense...and any crime that involves person to person contact between a criminal and a victim is violent...since the criminal has shown they will not obey laws, and they have the incentive and potential to injure or harm the victim....so yes...unless some of those 1.6 million crimes had no victim contact...but then no one would have used a gun to stop it now would they.....

Yes and he would have killed less had he reloaded more often.

Link to where any of your surveys claim they are all violent crimes? Back up your claim. Sorry every crime is not violent.

The Kleck survey.....they all involve interaction with another human being...that was one of the specific questions asked in his study...........so anytime you interact with a criminal...it is a violent crime........

No they aren't. You are making that up. Show where Kleck claims all his defenses are violent.

All his defenses involved an interaction between a criminal and a victim....that makes them violent....any time a criminal has contact with a victim the victim cannot just assume the criminal is not violent...considering what the criminal might do to avoid capture or to escalate his crimes against the victim....