Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[Kondor3]

"When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults..."

I agree completely.

Perhaps the Palestinians should not have begun utilizing children as suicide bombers ( Child suicide bombers in the Israeli?Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and changing the game.

"...They should not be forceably taken, denied access to their parents..."

When a minor is taken into custody, it is always forcible, and those minors are, at least for some time during the early going, denied access to their parents. This happens everywhere, including the United States.

"...or legal help, forced to sign confessions in a language that isn't their own..."

Agreed. This should not be happening, and it does happen, sometimes. I, for one, write that off as expediency under pseudo-wartime conditions, but it is an uncomfortable write-off, I will concede that much.

"...At the very least they should have access to the same legal protections as Jewish children."

Agreed. Again, I find myself obliged to write that off to the expediences of (psuedo-) war.

"...You don't think a good bit of the Palestinian children throwing stones is a 'natural' outcome of stress on the Settlement Frontier'?..."

Yes, I do. I have never believed nor stated otherwise.

"...You categorize it all as a brainwashed behavior? When you broadbrush it like that - what is there to discuss?..."

When one side (the Palestinian Government) routinely indoctrinates their young people with hatred and its trappings, it becomes all-but-impossible to separate activity that stems from such brainwashing, from activity that is free of such influences.

When one side (the Palestinian Government) routinely indoctrinates like that - when such indoctrination routinely and intentionally sets the stage for such activity - then it has only itself to blame, for leaving others with no choice BUT to paint with a broad brush.

But you're right... it makes it difficult to separate or distinguish activities motivated or influenced by such Palestinian Government -sponsored brainwashing and activities not so motivated or influenced.

But the Palestinians are the ones who muddy those waters with their brainwashing of children, not their adversaries, and, consequently, it is their cause which suffers from an inability to put down the broad brush.

"...They prove no point - they don't excuse the differing standards of justice for children."

Ahhhhh... but those videos DO prove a point.

They prove that the Palestinians routinely indoctrinate their young with hatred for the Jews of Israel and instill in them the idea that Martyrdom in the Palestinian Cause is actually Martrydom in the Cause of God.

That translates into a far more hate-filled and hostile mindset attributable to the average Palestinian youth being arrested, vis-a-vis the average Israeli youth so arrested.

Combine that hatred and martyrdom-complex mindset with potential knowledge of terror activity and participants, and you have a common-sense recipe for different treatment.

I, too, believe that, in the end, Palestinian children should enjoy the same legal rights and protections as Israeli children, with respect to arrest and processing and prosecution.

But the sporadic war that exists between the Israelis and Palestinians, and the differences in indoctrination and loyalty, citizenship status and jurisdiction, etc., all serve to create and sustain differences, driven by both common sense and the needs of the day.

In a perfect world, where all of the lions and lambs lay down together, and there was peace in the valley, and one side was not teaching its children that Martyrdom in the killing of Jews was something that pleased God and that God would reward... in such a perfect world, there would, indeed, be no difference in treatment or in access to legal services.

They don't live in that perfect world, like you and I do, so they do the best they can, I suppose. Just because you or the UN does not approve and thinks they should do better and differently, does not mean that you or the UN are right, in believing that any such thing can be achieved, from a practical perspective.

 

[Coyote]

You have not proven that a "differing standard of justice" exists. All you've given us is the unfounded accusations that have been made against Israel, devoid of any context or any comparator.

Those accusations have been made and backed up in UN, UNICEF and human rights reports. Why should I repeat what has already been said and categorically denounced as "unfounded" hate mongering? You will not accept any of the sources nor address any of the points made in them.

No, the accusations are not "backed up" in any report. Rather, those reports merely repeat the unfounded accusations made by "Palestinians."

You don't like the source so you categorically label them unfounded.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the "Palestinians" routinely lie and exaggerate in an effort to make Israel look like a bully and to make themselves look like an innocent victim. There are countless examples of this, including doctored and staged photographs.

Sure they do. And the IDF also lies to cover up the abuses that occur under their jurisdiction.

So, no... you have not provided a credible "source" of anything.

Like I said - it's a waste of time to debate with you, you don't accept anything critical of Israel as "credible" and label it "defemation of an entire nation" (a categorical assertion eh?).

And, to make matters worse, you make categorical assertions (i.e. "Israeli children throw rocks too") and then provide NOTHING to back up your statements.

It's been well documented that the settler children and adults throw rocks at Palestinians. Are you claiming they don't? If so - then truly, there is no sense in discussion.

 

[jodylee]

I believe whoever this has to do with should check it up and bring out their results

you mean, you wont comment until the Israeli truth machine has found a way round it with semantics and lies. Israeli's are WORSE than Nazi's

No, I think she is saying it needs to be investigated.

it was investigated, the whole report is an investigation. report is another word for investigation. I refer you to my previous answer

 

[HistoryBefore67]

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):

On the morning of March 20, 2013, following near daily rock throwing at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident. 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released.

So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too? Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested. For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs. Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released. The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.

 

[Coyote]

"When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults..."

I agree completely.

Perhaps the Palestinians should not have begun utilizing children as suicide bombers ( Child suicide bombers in the Israeli?Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and changing the game.

The use of children as suicide bombers is contemptable and condemned by the same organizations that are condemning Israel for it's abuses.

However - two wrongs don't make a right nor do I see how that is relevant to brutally taking young children from their homes at night, hand cuffing them and subjecting them to torture, seperating them from their parents and any legal help, questioning them in and forcing them to sign a confession in a language they don't understand.

"...They should not be forceably taken, denied access to their parents..."

When a minor is taken into custody, it is always forcible, and those minors are, at least for some time during the early going, denied access to their parents. This happens everywhere, including the United States.

It's not legal. That's the point. In the US it is not legal to question a minor without parents or guardian. As far as "forcible" no, it's not always forcible - it does not always involve brutal treatment - not when you are talking 8-12 yr olds.

 

[Coyote]

you mean, you wont comment until the Israeli truth machine has found a way round it with semantics and lies. Israeli's are WORSE than Nazi's

No, I think she is saying it needs to be investigated.

it was investigated, the whole report is an investigation. report is another word for investigation. I refer you to my previous answer

The one where you say "Israeli's are WORSE than Nazi's"?

 

[Kondor3]

"When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults..."

I agree completely.

Perhaps the Palestinians should not have begun utilizing children as suicide bombers ( Child suicide bombers in the Israeli?Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and changing the game.

The use of children as suicide bombers is contemptable and condemned by the same organizations that are condemning Israel for it's abuses.

However - two wrongs don't make a right

We agree here, in principle, but, when one wrong (Palestinian child suicide bombing) involves KILLING, and one wrong (Israeli treatment of minors) involves DIFFERENCES IN POST-ARREST TREATMENT, well, I, personally, tend to be more understanding of the latter.

I also find myself wondering whether the Israelis formerly treated arrested Palestinian minors better, BEFORE the Palestinians began using their own children as living time-bombs?

 

[Coyote]

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):

On the morning of March 20, 2013, following near daily rock throwing at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident. 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released.

So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too? Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested. For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs. Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released. The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.

In 13 years, only 6?

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?"

The last I heard, American Black children are not being indoctrinated with the idea that killing American Whites is Gods' work and that they will go to Paradise if they die while doing so.

The last I heard, American Blacks were not manifestly hostile to their government and looking to drive American Whites into the ocean.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

In 13 years, only 6?

What a disgusting comment. How many parents, sibilings, spouses, children and friends have you lost in the last 13 years to random acts of violence? It must be a big number for you to think that 6 murdered civilians warrants a "so what" response.

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

How is that possible relevant to this discussion?

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Ah, there's your non-sequitur.

I'm not even going to dignify that tripe with a response.

 

[toastman]

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):

On the morning of March 20, 2013, following near daily rock throwing at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident. 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released.

So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too? Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested. For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs. Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released. The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.

In 13 years, only 6?

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

That's 6 too many. The only reason it's not much higher is because has taken security measures to protect her citizens via the security fence, bomb shelters, alarms and the Iron Dome.
When discussing launching rockets into civilian populations, we shouldn't look at the death/injury toll, but instead the intention of the act. I think we all know the intention of Hamas when launching rockets. To kill civilians and disrupt daily life in Israel.

 

[Coyote]

In 13 years, only 6?

What a disgusting comment. How many parents, sibilings, spouses, children and friends have you lost in the last 13 years to random acts of violence? It must be a big number for you to think that 6 murdered civilians warrants a "so what" response.

No, it's not a "so what" response. It's a proportionate response.

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

How is that possible relevant to this discussion?

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Ah, there's your non-sequitur.

I'm not even going to dignify that tripe with a response.

It's not a non-sequitur. It ties in directly to a dual standard of justice.

 

[Coyote]

"...Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?"

The last I heard, American Black children are not being indoctrinated with the idea that killing American Whites is Gods' work and that they will go to Paradise if they die while doing so.

The last I heard, American Blacks were not manifestly hostile to their government and looking to drive American Whites into the ocean.

We're talking about children. Not adults.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

In 13 years, only 6?

What a disgusting comment. How many parents, sibilings, spouses, children and friends have you lost in the last 13 years to random acts of violence? It must be a big number for you to think that 6 murdered civilians warrants a "so what" response.

No, it's not a "so what" response. It's a proportionate response.

How is that possible relevant to this discussion?

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Ah, there's your non-sequitur.

I'm not even going to dignify that tripe with a response.

It's not a non-sequitur. It ties in directly to a dual standard of justice.

Congratulations!

You just made the "not worth talking to" list.

 

[Coyote]

I agree completely.

Perhaps the Palestinians should not have begun utilizing children as suicide bombers ( Child suicide bombers in the Israeli?Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and changing the game.

The use of children as suicide bombers is contemptable and condemned by the same organizations that are condemning Israel for it's abuses.

However - two wrongs don't make a right

We agree here, in principle, but, when one wrong (Palestinian child suicide bombing) involves KILLING, and one wrong (Israeli treatment of minors) involves DIFFERENCES IN POST-ARREST TREATMENT, well, I, personally, tend to be more understanding of the latter.

I also find myself wondering whether the Israelis formerly treated arrested Palestinian minors better, BEFORE the Palestinians began using their own children as living time-bombs?

I don't and the reason is once you start feeling that way you start making excuses for it or legitimizing it rather than seeking better means of handling children being arrested or trying to make the system equal across the board - which it should be.

 

[Coyote]

What a disgusting comment. How many parents, sibilings, spouses, children and friends have you lost in the last 13 years to random acts of violence? It must be a big number for you to think that 6 murdered civilians warrants a "so what" response.

No, it's not a "so what" response. It's a proportionate response.

How is that possible relevant to this discussion?



Ah, there's your non-sequitur.

I'm not even going to dignify that tripe with a response.

It's not a non-sequitur. It ties in directly to a dual standard of justice.

Congratulations!

You just made the "not worth talking to" list.

I'm crushed.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):

On the morning of March 20, 2013, following near daily rock throwing at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident. 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released.

So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too? Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested. For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs. Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released. The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.

In 13 years, only 6?

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Here are two of the, in your words, "only six." Murdered by rock throwing arabs whilst their car was driving at speed.

Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this sweetheart is still in a coma from when the car she was travelling in with her mother and siblings had a rock thrown at it last March. Her name is Adele Bitton.

Please Coyote, do not trivialize the deaths of Jews having rocks thrown at them, particularly with the extra strength and unexpectedness of a rock being thrown at a car travelling at speed along the road.



.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

HB67, I disagree with you deciding to cease talking with Coyote. Just because you disagree with her posts, doesn't mean you guys can't converse. I disagree with some things she says too, but she's one of the only pro - Palestinians here who I see as non biased. She's made a lot of criticisms towards the Palestinians as well as their supporters here on this board . Just my thought. Sorry for butting in

Agree to disagree on that one.

I have no interest in her double-standards, lack of factual support for broad, sweeping conclusions, and hypocritical downplaying of Jewish deaths.

I've got better things to do with my time.

 

[Coyote]

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):


So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too? Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested. For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs. Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released. The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.

In 13 years, only 6?

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Here are two of the, in your words, "only six." Murdered by rock throwing arabs whilst their car was driving at speed.

Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this sweetheart is still in a coma from when the car she was travelling in with her mother and siblings had a rock thrown at it last March. Her name is Adele Bitton.

Please Coyote, do not trivialize the deaths of Jews having rocks thrown at them, particularly with the extra strength and unexpectedness of a rock being thrown at a car travelling at speed along the road.



.

My intention is not to trivialize it but to keep it from being a diversion from the real issue at hand which is the treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli justice system.

You don't avenge those deaths by brutalizing children in response.

You do realize, to, don't you - that Palestinians have also lost children and family members due to IDF responses or settlers shooting them? It's an endless cycle and easy to find fault but none of it should be used to justify what is done on either side whether it's rockets or legal brutality.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

In 13 years, only 6?

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders. Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?

Here are two of the, in your words, "only six." Murdered by rock throwing arabs whilst their car was driving at speed.

Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this sweetheart is still in a coma from when the car she was travelling in with her mother and siblings had a rock thrown at it last March. Her name is Adele Bitton.

Please Coyote, do not trivialize the deaths of Jews having rocks thrown at them, particularly with the extra strength and unexpectedness of a rock being thrown at a car travelling at speed along the road.



.

My intention is not to trivialize it but to keep it from being a diversion from the real issue at hand which is the treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli justice system.

You don't avenge those deaths by brutalizing children in response.

You do realize, to, don't you - that Palestinians have also lost children and family members due to IDF responses or settlers shooting them? It's an endless cycle and easy to find fault but none of it should be used to justify what is done on either side whether it's rockets or legal brutality.

Considering Israel is fighting for its country's survival against people out to annihilate its citizens, I do not take kindly to people trivializing the deaths of its citizens whilst they are driving in cars, not expecting rocks to be thrown at them whilst driving at speed. A totally unexpected situation.


.