Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[Hyrcanus]

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.

We all understand that Israel wants special treatment.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.

We all understand that Israel wants special treatment.

Israel already receives special treatment. They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.

 

[Coyote]

No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.

I agree - overall, Israel's moral compass is a good one.

Here is where I have an issue with your comments. The term "abuses" implies deliberate actions. Then you state that you agree that Israel's moral compass is a good one. These seem to be inconsistent statements.

I don't think they are inconsistent.

Some abuses are deliberate, some a result of a situation where a country is in conflict, some a result of unofficial policy.

For example - the issuing of building permits and permits for expansion and infrastructure. The inequities there are stark. Official policy? Unofficial policy?

Another example: the treatment of Palestinian children and Israeli children in the criminal justice system: access to parents, lawyers, etc. A simple comparison would be how rock throwing Jewish children vs rock throwing Palestinian children are treated. Official policy? Unofficial policy? A result of conflict? All of the above? Children are children and they aren't mature nor are their brains mature. It's why they are treated very differently (or should be) in civilized societies.

Another example: crimes against Palestinians by Jewish settlers are seldom prosecuted or even seriously investigated. Yet, crimes against Jewish settlers by Palestinians are aggressively pursued. Why? Likely, complex reasons: the political fall out of not pursuing crimes against Jews would be heavy. There is none for not pursing crimes against Palestinians. Another reason - the IDF meets with hostility and obstacles in trying to investigate within Palestinian villages which could make pursuing justice more difficult - better to let the Palestinians deal with it. Another reason - they just plain don't like the Palestinians and see them as murdering barbarians intent on destroying Israel. All of the above maybe. Yet it creats an ongoing resentment and perception of injustice.

Where I don't see this as inconsistent with a moral compass as it doesn't necessarily reflect Israel's cultural values as a whole. We, the US, has definate injustices - for example racial inequities in the death penalty and incarceration rates to give just one example or double standards when it comes to human rights abuses around the world - some get a free pass, others are condemned. Does that mean though that overall our moral compass is rotten? I don't think so - I think the majority of our country is generous, inclusive, diverse, and would fight to the death for a person's right to speak or worship freely and live as they wish. I think we're a good society - not perfect by any means - but our compass is a good one. I feel the same way with Israel. But by the same token I feel it's not right to ignore the abuses - if I love my country, I want to change those things which I feel are wrong - I want my country to be true to the dream of it's founding.

If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors). If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.

I think some of them occur on occassion by those acting outside Israel's policy - for example the issue of using human shields. Israel's courts have made it clear what that policy is. However - I think that the culture of the IDF deliberately chooses to ignore this behavior at least in certain brigades and this is obvious by the very light punishments given when it's made public.

I think other abuses are more deliberate - inequities of the permit systems.

I think some abuses are the result of conflict between settlers/Palestinians and trying to protect both sides from each other - seperate systems of transport and strict policies at religious sites. In those cases - I understand the fine line Israel must walk at perserving peace and preventing violence on civilians on both sides.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.

Here is where I have an issue with your comments. The term "abuses" implies deliberate actions. Then you state that you agree that Israel's moral compass is a good one. These seem to be inconsistent statements.

I don't think they are inconsistent.

Some abuses are deliberate, some a result of a situation where a country is in conflict, some a result of unofficial policy.

For example - the issuing of building permits and permits for expansion and infrastructure. The inequities there are stark. Official policy? Unofficial policy?

Another example: the treatment of Palestinian children and Israeli children in the criminal justice system: access to parents, lawyers, etc. A simple comparison would be how rock throwing Jewish children vs rock throwing Palestinian children are treated. Official policy? Unofficial policy? A result of conflict? All of the above? Children are children and they aren't mature nor are their brains mature. It's why they are treated very differently (or should be) in civilized societies.

Another example: crimes against Palestinians by Jewish settlers are seldom prosecuted or even seriously investigated. Yet, crimes against Jewish settlers by Palestinians are aggressively pursued. Why? Likely, complex reasons: the political fall out of not pursuing crimes against Jews would be heavy. There is none for not pursing crimes against Palestinians. Another reason - the IDF meets with hostility and obstacles in trying to investigate within Palestinian villages which could make pursuing justice more difficult - better to let the Palestinians deal with it. Another reason - they just plain don't like the Palestinians and see them as murdering barbarians intent on destroying Israel. All of the above maybe. Yet it creats an ongoing resentment and perception of injustice.

Where I don't see this as inconsistent with a moral compass as it doesn't necessarily reflect Israel's cultural values as a whole. We, the US, has definate injustices - for example racial inequities in the death penalty and incarceration rates to give just one example or double standards when it comes to human rights abuses around the world - some get a free pass, others are condemned. Does that mean though that overall our moral compass is rotten? I don't think so - I think the majority of our country is generous, inclusive, diverse, and would fight to the death for a person's right to speak or worship freely and live as they wish. I think we're a good society - not perfect by any means - but our compass is a good one. I feel the same way with Israel. But by the same token I feel it's not right to ignore the abuses - if I love my country, I want to change those things which I feel are wrong - I want my country to be true to the dream of it's founding.

If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors). If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.

I think some of them occur on occassion by those acting outside Israel's policy - for example the issue of using human shields. Israel's courts have made it clear what that policy is. However - I think that the culture of the IDF deliberately chooses to ignore this behavior at least in certain brigades and this is obvious by the very light punishments given when it's made public.

I think other abuses are more deliberate - inequities of the permit systems.

I think some abuses are the result of conflict between settlers/Palestinians and trying to protect both sides from each other - seperate systems of transport and strict policies at religious sites. In those cases - I understand the fine line Israel must walk at perserving peace and preventing violence on civilians on both sides.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to address each distorted example you've provided (nor do I intend to return to the unfounded accusations regarding human shields).

The bottom line is that Israel's endgames are security and peace, while the "Palestinians'" endgames are conquest and elimination of the Jewish State. As you believe otherwise, we really have nothing left to discuss.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Israel demands a double standard.

They want to be able to do what no other country would be allowed to do.

And so far their wish has come true.

 

[Indofred]

Israel already receives special treatment. They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.

Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?

 

[Kondor3]

Hamas DOES use human shields, that is pretty well documented. If you are launching rockets out of schools that is most certainly using human shields.

No, they do not. Not documented, Amnesty found no evidence it happened In ttheir investigstion of Cast Lead. I renounce Zionist Hasbara.

Cast Lead is not the only conflict.

Aside from that - Hamas has launched rockets from school buildings. Is that not using human shields?

I agree, it's not as direct as making a child examine bags for possible IED's but it is essentially the same thing - using a school because opponents are less likely to fire back on a school full of children.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Israel already receives special treatment. They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.

Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?

Please provide evidence establishing that they were all conceived out of wedlock.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?

they demand special treatment and get special treatment due to Holocaust guilt trips and donations from right-wing Israeli interests to American political campaigns.

and yeah, there are some right-wing Christians who think supporting Israel will bring Jesus back.

 

[Kondor3]

Gaza Activist Stabbed After Exposing Hamas Use of Human Shields

UN Watch - January 17, 2013 - Geneva

GENEVA, Jan. 17 - The stabbing in Gaza of a Palestinian rights activist after he exposed Hamas' contempt for its own people by using them as human shields, and after he criticized the radical Islamic group for torture, abuse and trampling free speech, should be strongly condemned by the United Nations—both as an attack on the victim’s human rights, and on the idea of freedom of expression.

Masked attackers on Friday stabbed Mahmud Abu Rahma multiple times in the back, leg and shoulders, it was revealed today.

This latest attack on a rights activist underscores Gaza's brutally enforced intolerance for any discourse other the anti-Israel mantras of Hamas, which rules the area with an iron fist.

The attack only proves the simple truth of the victim's words.

Abu Rahma's crime was publishing an article in the Palestinian press that dared to criticize Hamas' "outrageous attack upon free expression and peaceful assembly" over the past year, and the "hundreds of cases of torture and abuse."

Abu Rahma also dared to publish basic facts about Gaza that completely contradict the Hamas narrative, and that of the UN's Goldstone Report, which repeatedly found "no evidence" that Hamas used civilians as human shields.

What is remarkable is that with all of the massive UN resources ostensibly dedicated to protecting Palestinians... the world body somehow managed to turn a blind eye to the massive violations of Palestinian rights described by Abu Rahma:

• Although Abu Rahma considers Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations to be “resistance groups,” he said they "show little or no care for people's life and well being.”

• “Military training sites function and are located in places very close to neighborhoods and/or schools, from where acts of resistance, including firing rockets, also occur.” As a result, “The population of these locations are inevitably vulnerable to Israeli attacks.”

...

• “The state of carelessness from the part of resistance is also causing continued victims of the misfiring of home-made rockets that fall on houses inside Gaza. Many of the victims are children and all of them are civilians who happen to be in their homes.”

• “There are more victims of shootings from, or explosions in, training sites. Many children are killed or maimed when explosive devices left in the streets or farms explode in their hands. And there is the young man who was shot in the legs for daring to publicly criticize a local resistance leader.”

If the UN's colossal pro-Palestinian infrastructure would have truly done its job and reported the above simple facts about Hamas perfidy to the world's attention, it is fair to ask whether Abu Rahma would have been assaulted for writing his article.


The incident raises serious questions about the ability of the Palestinians to create a democratic state where people feel free to question their government without fear of being seriously injured or killed for doing so.

...

UN Briefing

=============================

So, there is some possibility that the UN turns a blind-eye towards Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., while going out of its way to castigate the Israelis?

If true, then, uhhhhh... yeah... there's International Impartiality for ya.

 

[Kondor3]

The gap between resistance and governance

By Mahmoud Abu Rahma - Ma'an News Agency (Palestine) - January 5, 2012

...

On the contrary, we only see overwhelming efforts exerted to protect the violators of people's rights; be those torturers, teachers who abuse children, or doctors who act with utmost negligence.

The government stands by them firmly and no one can get the reports, evidence, or public records that prove their innocence or wrongdoing. Nor do we hear of serious investigations seeking the truth.

Many citizens also fell victim of the continuous negligence of the resistance groups who show little or no care for people's life and well being, or, worse, fail to take responsibility for shocking acts by their members.

Numerous people were injured from live fire coming from resistance groups training sites; including children and at least one man who lost his eye.

Those are victims of the irresponsible behavior that seems to continue despite the frequent injuries. There is a training site in the town of Beit Lahiya that threatens people every day, including a girl who was injured inside her school when an explosion occurred in this site on Sep. 20 2011.

Explosions also occur frequently in densely-populated areas around Gaza and have their victims; many of whom are children. Shootings occur by mistake inside homes from weapons owned by the resistance. Military training sites function and are located in places very close to neighborhoods and/or schools, from where acts of resistance; including firing rockets, also occur.

The population of these locations are inevitably vulnerable to Israeli attacks. Hundreds of people have been injured and killed and dozens of homes have been damaged from Israeli missile attacks. But little has been done to ease the pain of the loss of life or residence suffered by these people.

On Dec. 9 2011, an Israeli attack on a training site killed a man and his 11-year-old son in al-Nasser neighborhood in Gaza city. His wife and four children were injured; one of the children is at an Israeli hospital suffering critical wounds.

This man, whose house is near the training site, had complained to the resistance members many times. He explained the family’s fear for their life and house. But he was told the family could move out of the area, even if they had no resources to move. He died the way he feared most: tragically.

The state of carelessness from the part of resistance is also causing continued victims of the misfiring of home-made rockets that fall on houses inside Gaza. Many of the victims are children and all of them are civilians who happen to be in their homes.

...

The gap between resistance and governance | Maan News Agency

==============================

The article which got Mahmoud Abu Rahma by Palestinian Fascist thugs...

Published BY a Palestinian, in a Palestinian media outlet...

Golly-gosh gee-willickers, Emmy Lou, I can't imagine WHY this fellow was attacked afterward!

 

[Kondor3]

Israel already receives special treatment. They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.

Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?

The rank-and-file of several militaries have adopted that mantra...

It's GOOD to be the biggest, badded MoFo in the Valley...

The more the Bad Guys piss their pants at the thought of going-up against such, the better...

Oh, if only the folks that YOU advocate for, could make that boast, eh?

 

[Coyote]

Here is where I have an issue with your comments. The term "abuses" implies deliberate actions. Then you state that you agree that Israel's moral compass is a good one. These seem to be inconsistent statements.

I don't think they are inconsistent.

Some abuses are deliberate, some a result of a situation where a country is in conflict, some a result of unofficial policy.

For example - the issuing of building permits and permits for expansion and infrastructure. The inequities there are stark. Official policy? Unofficial policy?

Another example: the treatment of Palestinian children and Israeli children in the criminal justice system: access to parents, lawyers, etc. A simple comparison would be how rock throwing Jewish children vs rock throwing Palestinian children are treated. Official policy? Unofficial policy? A result of conflict? All of the above? Children are children and they aren't mature nor are their brains mature. It's why they are treated very differently (or should be) in civilized societies.

Another example: crimes against Palestinians by Jewish settlers are seldom prosecuted or even seriously investigated. Yet, crimes against Jewish settlers by Palestinians are aggressively pursued. Why? Likely, complex reasons: the political fall out of not pursuing crimes against Jews would be heavy. There is none for not pursing crimes against Palestinians. Another reason - the IDF meets with hostility and obstacles in trying to investigate within Palestinian villages which could make pursuing justice more difficult - better to let the Palestinians deal with it. Another reason - they just plain don't like the Palestinians and see them as murdering barbarians intent on destroying Israel. All of the above maybe. Yet it creats an ongoing resentment and perception of injustice.

Where I don't see this as inconsistent with a moral compass as it doesn't necessarily reflect Israel's cultural values as a whole. We, the US, has definate injustices - for example racial inequities in the death penalty and incarceration rates to give just one example or double standards when it comes to human rights abuses around the world - some get a free pass, others are condemned. Does that mean though that overall our moral compass is rotten? I don't think so - I think the majority of our country is generous, inclusive, diverse, and would fight to the death for a person's right to speak or worship freely and live as they wish. I think we're a good society - not perfect by any means - but our compass is a good one. I feel the same way with Israel. But by the same token I feel it's not right to ignore the abuses - if I love my country, I want to change those things which I feel are wrong - I want my country to be true to the dream of it's founding.

If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors). If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.

I think some of them occur on occassion by those acting outside Israel's policy - for example the issue of using human shields. Israel's courts have made it clear what that policy is. However - I think that the culture of the IDF deliberately chooses to ignore this behavior at least in certain brigades and this is obvious by the very light punishments given when it's made public.

I think other abuses are more deliberate - inequities of the permit systems.

I think some abuses are the result of conflict between settlers/Palestinians and trying to protect both sides from each other - seperate systems of transport and strict policies at religious sites. In those cases - I understand the fine line Israel must walk at perserving peace and preventing violence on civilians on both sides.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to address each distorted example you've provided (nor do I intend to return to the unfounded accusations regarding human shields).

The bottom line is that Israel's endgames are security and peace, while the "Palestinians'" endgames are conquest and elimination of the Jewish State. As you believe otherwise, we really have nothing left to discuss.

Interesting. You have neither the time nor the inclination to put forward a rational discussion. Each attempt to have a serious discussion with you leads to your presentation of an extreme rather than a discussion of points. You are right - I see little value here in a discussion and an utter waste of time on my part to try to present an alternate point of view. You are as extreme and intractable as those you denounce.

The bottom line is Israel's endgames are security and peace: the majority want nothing more than that, yet a substantial minority want all of biblical Palestine and land aquisition and the removal of the Palestinians through settlement construction plays a part in it.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians are divided in what they want: according to public polls conducted in the region, the majority still want their own state in co-exhistence with Israel. A minority want the destruction of Israel. They are saddled with a corrupt and ineffective government that refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and are not doing their people any favors.

Double standards seem to be all you are capable of.

 

[Coyote]

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.

We all understand that Israel wants special treatment.

Israel already receives special treatment. They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.

Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior. They've gotten more free passes than any other country. Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.

 

[MHunterB]

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.

Fred - know that I and some others have indeed posted condemnation, so your 'criticism' of myself and those others is baseless.

OTOH, at least one poster on this thread has persistently denied that HAMAS has committed war crimes in its rocket attacks intended to maim and murder civilians.

Because your condemnation of that is absent: I think we can guess just what I'd be suggesting you do with your charges of 'hypocrisy' and 'two-faced sod'........

However, it seems you are having difficulty here, so I'll be more specific. You can take those epithets and apply them to your own self, which is where they belong. And while you're at it, you may as well add 'liar'.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

If the "Palestinians" truly support a "two state solution" (as opposed to a "two state" stepping stone to the ultimate goal of an Arab state "from river to sea"), why do they elect people who openly call for Israel's destruction (i.e. Hamas in Gaza, PA officials who - when speaking in Arabic - call for the end of the Jewish State)?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior. They've gotten more free passes than any other country. Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.

Indeed.

Rather than using their nukes simply as a defensive measure, they instead use them to protect their Apartheid-like policies.

Israel would probably use their nukes to stop any country from preventing them from ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all "untermenschen".

 

[Kondor3]

Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior. They've gotten more free passes than any other country. Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.

Indeed.

Rather than using their nukes simply as a defensive measure, they instead use them to protect their Apartheid-like policies.

Please demonstrate for us how the Israeli nuclear arsenal has been utilized in pursuit of their policy of holding the Palestinians at arms' length due to valid security concerns.

"...Israel would probably use their nukes to stop any country from preventing them from ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all 'untermenschen'".

Some of the worst hyperbole and amateur-caliber (failed) attempts to link Israeli aloofness to Nazi race theory that have graced these boards in quite some time.

 

[toastman]

Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior. They've gotten more free passes than any other country. Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.

Indeed.

Rather than using their nukes simply as a defensive measure, they instead use them to protect their Apartheid-like policies.

Israel would probably use their nukes to stop any country from preventing them from ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all "untermenschen".

Israels nukes are absolutely for defensive purposes. After plenty of Arab states called for their destruction (Many Arab leaders of Countries or terrorist groups still do so and always will) then Israel took initiative and acquired nukes. To think that they acquired them for any other purpose then defensive is just Arab propaganda mentality, which you seem to be suffering from

 

[Hyrcanus]

Some of the worst hyperbole and amateur-caliber (failed) attempts to link Israeli aloofness to Nazi race theory that have graced these boards in quite some time.

Sorry bro, but when folks in this forum call for all Gentiles in Israel to lose their citizenship, and all Palestinians to be kicked out of Israel or face death, comparisons to the Nazis will be made.