Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[MHunterB]

Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.

This is factually incorrect, as has been proven already.

I accept the findings of the humam rights groups that Hamas does not use civilians as humam shields. And I accept their findings that Israel uses civilians, to include children, as human shields.

Then AI and HRW are not 'human rights groups' - for each of them has cited HAMAS for doing so. Or else you only accept 'selected' findings. It's all been posted for you many times before.

 

[Indofred]

I have yet to see any pro Israeli poster condemn Israeli war crimes, including inhumane treatment of children.

That says something about the nature of the posters here and explains why so many people hate Israel.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

This is factually incorrect, as has been proven already.

I accept the findings of the humam rights groups that Hamas does not use civilians as humam shields. And I accept their findings that Israel uses civilians, to include children, as human shields.

Then AI and HRW are not 'human rights groups' - for each of them has cited HAMAS for doing so. Or else you only accept 'selected' findings. It's all been posted for you many times before.

Cast Lead Reports, neither found Hamas used civilians as human shields. BOTH documented Israels use of civilians, that included children, as human shields.

 

[MHunterB]

I have yet to see any pro Israeli poster condemn Israeli war crimes, including inhumane treatment of children.

That says something about the nature of the posters here and explains why so many people hate Israel.

Fred, it's sad that you can't find that condemnation in others' posts: it's been there, you just don't seem able to see it.

I guess what has happened is that day after day, we are presented with all manner of inflated and exaggerated 'outrage' over anything Israel does - and the fact that HAMAS, for example, has made public statements of their intent to deliberately target civilians, goes completely unacknowledged by far too many of those who insist they are 'against ALL violence', etc.

Tell you what, Fred: you PM me with a link to anything you think I should express outrage over, and I'll do the same for you : ))

 

[Indofred]

Tell you what, Fred: you PM me with a link to anything you think I should express outrage over, and I'll do the same for you : ))

I condemn all acts of violence against Israel's civilian population but do not condemn acts against the military and/or government of that country.
I hope that's clear.

No point to PM the link; just look at the accusations in my OP and tell the world if you condemn the Israeli government and IDF for this despicable behaviour.

So - do you?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.

This is factually incorrect, as has been proven already.

You are the one making an inaccurate allegation here. It has never been proven Hamas uses civilians as human shields. (A mother voluntarily placing her body between IDF soldiers and her son in a burning mosque, in an attempt to save the life of her son, is not Hamas unlawfully using civilians as human shields. Nor, is a neighbor trying to save her neighbors house from destruction by inhabiting the house an unlawful use by Hamas of human shields. These were both pre Cast Lead incidents )

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza

Amnesty accused Israeli forces of using children as human shields and conducting wanton attacks on civilians.July 2, 2009**| *****Amnesty on Thursday accused Israeli forces of war crimes in Gaza, saying they used children as human shields and conducted wanton attacks on civilians, in a report rejected as "unbalanced" by*Israel.The London-based*human rights*group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence to support Israeli claims that Gaza's Islamist rulers used civilians as human shields during Israel's massive 22-day offensive. Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza | Alternet

 

[MHunterB]

Gaza: Hamas Report Whitewashes War Crimes | Human Rights Watch

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians."

Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel.

The balance of power and the politics of a conflict are never justifications for a warring party to target civilians, Human Rights Watch said. Violations of the laws of war by one party do not justify violations by the other side.

Which part of the bolded words above is unclear?

 

[MHunterB]

Fred: Whoever is using torture on children or using them as human shields is wrong and it must stop.

The assumption has been made, though, that such is 'policy' and 'official' in Israel: it surely is NOT legal there.
That assumption is extremely premature, as far as I can tell.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Gaza: Hamas Report Whitewashes War Crimes | Human Rights Watch

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians."

Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel.

Which part of the bolded words above is unclear?

That is not using civilian children as human shields, which is what the UN confirms Israel does and is addressed in the OP. Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields.

 

[MHunterB]

"Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields."

This is a completely unwarranted assertion.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields."

This is a completely unwarranted assertion.

It is what the UN Report and reports of human rights groups tell us. And I posted a link to the UN Report being addressed in the OP. I will start addressing more specific findings in that 21 page report later today.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I am positive I posted these before, but perhaps SM didn't view them, so here again are the human shields that Hamas use.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo]Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw]BBC: Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp Discusses IDF Gaza Ops - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MHunterB]

From OP's link:

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

So, 14 incidents over a 3-year period were reported, that includes both 'human shields' and 'informants'. And that's being described as 'continuous'........

Yet the *training of young children to be bombers* - a practice which HAMAS publically acknowledges - somehow escapes the knowledge of OP and others.

I despair of finding a single individual able to objectively evaluate any aspect of this situation.

 

[Coyote]

From OP's link:

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

So, 14 incidents over a 3-year period were reported, that includes both 'human shields' and 'informants'. And that's being described as 'continuous'........

Yet the *training of young children to be bombers* - a practice which HAMAS publically acknowledges - somehow escapes the knowledge of OP and others.

I despair of finding a single individual able to objectively evaluate any aspect of this situation.

That particular report dealt with Israel. 14 instances is more than enough. Rather than addressing them - everyone is crying unfair.

There have been other UN reports on Hamas and their actions using children, including reports that exonerate Israel when Israel is unfairly blamed. Hamas is roundly condemned for using civilians. I don't see anyone denying it, insisting on "objective evaluation" of it either. Two different standards.

 

[Coyote]

Let's make this really simple.

I will type slowly for you.

What was that you were saying about trolling and insults?

Read your own quote.

So you thing the definition of "objective" is subjective?

It is when it comes to matters like these. What's an "objective" source depends entirely on the viewpoint of the person. It's not like math or science where it is black and white. What would you consider objective in regards to IP?

You don't offer sources. You offer reports of accusations. Those accusations are unproven, so there is no reason for me or anyone else to respond to them. You don't seem to understand the difference between an "allegation" and a "fact."

One was an example given was of an "accusation" that was settled in court and the offender punished. That is not "unproven". It's not me that lacks understanding, it's you that lacks the ability back up your claims while insisting others do so. You go on and on about sources being false - well back it up. Address the points.

I totally agree - Israel is far more careful, and more conscientous of civilians then any of it's opponents.

Then why not spend your time trying to fight against the source of the violence - i.e. the "Palestinians" (mostly in Gaza).
[/quote]

Because the root causes of the violence comes from actions by both sides.

No, I have not demanded sources and proof, because you clearly don't know what those terms mean. These discussions are about you raising "strawman" arguments and then demanding that I DISPROVE them.

What strawman arguments? Do you mean the strawman argument you raised when I was talking about WP and you were implying that my condemnation of that was a condemnation of Israel's defending itself by any means?

Its not my job to disprove every claim the "Palestinians" fabricate.

pfffft! Translation: you can't back up your claims and expect others to do your research for you.

 

[Coyote]

Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups written reports about Cast Lead have found no evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.

Hamas DOES use human shields, that is pretty well documented. If you are launching rockets out of schools that is most certainly using human shields.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

This is a typical debate...

The Arabs clearly have a policy and practice of inhumane conduct grounded on barbaric concepts of martyrdom.

Israel is accused, with highly questionable evidence, of a handful of acts of misconduct by individuals acting without authority.

Pro-Palestinians: "See, Israel is just as bad, if not worse, than the Palestinians."

What a bunch of dishonest bigots you are.

 

[Kondor3]

So, if I've got this right, you folks are talking about fourteen (14) incidents involving the Israeli use of Palestinian minors, spread across three (3) years, and those fourteen incidents are divided between (a) using those minors as Informants and (b) using them as shields?

I assume that we have Incident Type-Counts for both? 7 informant, 7 shield? Some other ratio?

I'm going to have to give the 'Informant' side of that a bit more Thinking Time before I arrive at a personal opinion about that one way or the other.

I CAN say that I believe that the use of kids as Human Shields is just plain wrong.

Using a teenager on top of a vehicle hood, to convince his mates not to throw rocks at the Israelis, is just wrong, although I can understand the mentality that decided to utilize the youth in that way.

Of that subset of the fourteen ( 7 incidents? some other? ) which involves Human Shield activity rather than Informant Use, I wonder how many of those incidents were mere rock-throwing prevention, and therefore a much more lightweight category of Human Shield usage?

Now, strapping a teenager to the hood of a car or pushing them out in front of you to avoid small-arms fire is an entirely different matter - something that I find despicable and which smacks of personal cowardice or hatred or disdain for young human life.

Within that subset of the 14 which deals with Human Shields rather than Informant Use (7? other?), I wonder how many involved the use of such youth, to avoid small arms fire?

1? 2? 3? Zero?

Each and every such incident is an offense against Humanity and those who engaged in it should be prosecuted and - if convicted - censured.

Very un-cool... but hardly a matter of Established Policy and Practice, as some would have us believe.

And, as a related aside, as long as we are comparing things...

A handful of instances of Israelis wrongfully using a Palestinian youth as a Human Shield, pales by comparison, to the everyday Palestinian practice of utilizing entire Palestinian civilian neighborhoods as Human Shields, in connection with their rocket-launching sites and bases and safe-houses and the like.

If one were to quantify such offenses, based upon the above analysis (and assuming that there is some merit to such conclusions)...

The offenses of the IDF re: Human Shields would be the thickness of a piece of paper...

The offenses of the Palestinians re: Human Shields would be the height of the Empire State Building...

The Palestinians are clearly the masters in the use of Human Shields...

With their own women and children and old folks, no less...

So, when I hear a Palestinian or Sympathizer or Apologist denouncing the IDF for the use of Human Shields, the first words out of my mouth are: "Pffffttt !!!... look who's talking!"

 

[Coyote]

So, if I've got this right, you folks are talking about fourteen (14) incidents involving the Israeli use of Palestinian minors, spread across three (3) years, and those fourteen incidents are divided between (a) using those minors as Informants and (b) using them as shields?

I assume that we have Incident Type-Counts for both? 7 informant, 7 shield? Some other ratio?

I'm going to have to give the 'Informant' side of that a bit more Thinking Time before I arrive at a personal opinion about that one way or the other.

I CAN say that I believe that the use of kids as Human Shields is just plain wrong.

Using a teenager on top of a vehicle hood, to convince his mates not to throw rocks at the Israelis, is just wrong, although I can understand the mentality that decided to utilize the youth in that way.

Of that subset of the fourteen ( 7 incidents? some other? ) which involves Human Shield activity rather than Informant Use, I wonder how many of those incidents were mere rock-throwing prevention, and therefore a much more lightweight category of Human Shield usage?

Now, strapping a teenager to the hood of a car or pushing them out in front of you to avoid small-arms fire is an entirely different matter - something that I find despicable and which smacks of personal cowardice or hatred or disdain for young human life.

Within that subset of the 14 which deals with Human Shields rather than Informant Use (7? other?), I wonder how many involved the use of such youth, to avoid small arms fire?

1? 2? 3? Zero?

Each and every such incident is an offense against Humanity and those who engaged in it should be prosecuted and - if convicted - censured.

Very un-cool... but hardly a matter of Established Policy and Practice, as some would have us believe.

And, as a related aside, as long as we are comparing things...

A handful of instances of Israelis wrongfully using a Palestinian youth as a Human Shield, pales by comparison, to the everyday Palestinian practice of utilizing entire Palestinian civilian neighborhoods as Human Shields, in connection with their rocket-launching sites and bases and safe-houses and the like.

If one were to quantify such offenses, based upon the above analysis (and assuming that there is some merit to such conclusions)...

The offenses of the IDF re: Human Shields would be the thickness of a piece of paper...

The offenses of the Palestinians re: Human Shields would be the height of the Empire State Building...

The Palestinians are clearly the masters in the use of Human Shields...

With their own women and children and old folks, no less...

So, when I hear a Palestinian or Sympathizer or Apologist denouncing the IDF for the use of Human Shields, the first words out of my mouth are: "Pffffttt !!!... look who's talking!"

They should both be denounced - whether it's the Palestinians or the IDF.

Instead of excusing it.

No one is saying the IDF is as bad as Hamas. - that's a strawman argument. But excusing that behavior or ignoring it, rather than condemning and seeking to end it, is (to use the words of another poster here) the acts of dishonest bigots .