Palestine Today

[P F Tinmore]

No justice, no peace.

Bullshit. You obviously didn't even read my post, let alone attempt to understand it. Peace can be achieved in a number of ways. Not all of them worthy of pursuing.

You are attempting to color the narrative again.

What would justice for the Jewish people look like? How will we know when the Jewish people have achieved justice?

What would justice for the Arab Palestinian people look like? How will we know when the Arab Palestinian people have achieved justice?

Any consideration of one half of the equation, without considering the other, is NOT JUSTICE. And it will not achieve peace.

What would justice for the Jewish people look like?

What would justice for the Arab Palestinian people look like?

Good questions. What would be your answers?

Yep. I'll answer that.

But first, understand my point is that everyone must consider BOTH.

I only see one side on this board.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Great return march, Gaza.

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Shusha]

I only see one side on this board.

But this is again(!) just you trying to color the narrative.

 

[Shusha]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Shusha]

So, what might justice look like?

First and foremost, and above all else, it requires the recognition of BOTH peoples and a starting point that whatever one peoples achieves, the other should be given all chances to succeed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

No legal benefit can be derived from illegal activities.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Those are the principles I go by.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gaza Beach.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Human shield.

 

[Shusha]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

No legal benefit can be derived from illegal activities.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Those are the principles I go by.

Well, yes. But you only apply those principles to your side. You literally define "illegal" activities based on who is performing the activity. If Arabs are "resisting" -- legal. If Jews are "resisting" -- apartheid, illegal and all sorts of other ugliness.

You have no capability of understanding justice as a nuanced balanced concept. Justice, for you, is black and white Arabs good, Jews evil. That is not justice. That's racism.

 

[Shusha]

Human shield.

Soldier shielding teenager, obviously. Duh.

 

[P F Tinmore]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

No legal benefit can be derived from illegal activities.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Those are the principles I go by.

Well, yes. But you only apply those principles to your side. You literally define "illegal" activities based on who is performing the activity. If Arabs are "resisting" -- legal. If Jews are "resisting" -- apartheid, illegal and all sorts of other ugliness.

You have no capability of understanding justice as a nuanced balanced concept. Justice, for you, is black and white Arabs good, Jews evil. That is not justice. That's racism.

Settler colonialism is an aggression against the Palestinians that started over a hundred years ago.

 

[Shusha]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

No legal benefit can be derived from illegal activities.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Those are the principles I go by.

Well, yes. But you only apply those principles to your side. You literally define "illegal" activities based on who is performing the activity. If Arabs are "resisting" -- legal. If Jews are "resisting" -- apartheid, illegal and all sorts of other ugliness.

You have no capability of understanding justice as a nuanced balanced concept. Justice, for you, is black and white Arabs good, Jews evil. That is not justice. That's racism.

Settler colonialism is an aggression against the Palestinians that started over a hundred years ago.

What would justice for the Jewish people look like?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I might believe that if you could show or explain where the borders of Palestine are.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

v/r
R

Today we uproot the fence, tomorrow the occupation.

Uhhh, that fence is in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

But since Arab Palestinian has NOT refrained from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means?

To my knowledge, the Arab Palestinian has not exercised the dispute resolution process either under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States or the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.

"We have already recognized Israel's existence on the 1948 borders of Occupied Palestine," Erekat explained. He added that he made it clear to former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni during a meeting in Munich that the Palestinians "won't change their history and religion and culture by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I might believe that if you could show or explain where the borders of Palestine are.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

v/r
R

Today we uproot the fence, tomorrow the occupation.

Uhhh, that fence is in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

But since Arab Palestinian has NOT refrained from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means?

To my knowledge, the Arab Palestinian has not exercised the dispute resolution process either under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States or the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.

"We have already recognized Israel's existence on the 1948 borders of Occupied Palestine," Erekat explained. He added that he made it clear to former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni during a meeting in Munich that the Palestinians "won't change their history and religion and culture by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state."

Most Respectfully,
R

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes

What dispute? I don't see a dispute.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arab Palestinians OPENLY REJECTED this plan in 1947.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I might believe that if you could show or explain where the borders of Palestine are.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

v/r
R

Today we uproot the fence, tomorrow the occupation.

Uhhh, that fence is in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

But since Arab Palestinian has NOT refrained from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means?

To my knowledge, the Arab Palestinian has not exercised the dispute resolution process either under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States or the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.

"We have already recognized Israel's existence on the 1948 borders of Occupied Palestine," Erekat explained. He added that he made it clear to former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni during a meeting in Munich that the Palestinians "won't change their history and religion and culture by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state."

Most Respectfully,
R

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes

What dispute? I don't see a dispute.

(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinians cannot have it both ways. They cannot have it both ways. It is not a game where you get to start over if the outcome is not to your liking.

The Arab League attempt in to supplant this recommendation (A/RES/181 II) through the use of "Armed Force." The conflict altered the outcome and the Arab League members took what they wanted.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I might believe that if you could show or explain where the borders of Palestine are.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

v/r
R

Today we uproot the fence, tomorrow the occupation.

Uhhh, that fence is in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

But since Arab Palestinian has NOT refrained from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means?

To my knowledge, the Arab Palestinian has not exercised the dispute resolution process either under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States or the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.

"We have already recognized Israel's existence on the 1948 borders of Occupied Palestine," Erekat explained. He added that he made it clear to former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni during a meeting in Munich that the Palestinians "won't change their history and religion and culture by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state."

Most Respectfully,
R

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes

What dispute? I don't see a dispute.

It's too bad the Palestinians didn't accept that partition when they had the chance. Now they will have to make do with less than that.

 

[USAF 2023]

on justice:

First, what justice is NOT: Justice does not mean the restoration of any particular conditions at any particular point in time. Restoration of this sort accepts the narrative that one particular, singular point of time is the "right' place or state of being, to the exclusion of all other possibilities. It is neither just to attempt to restore the Jewish people to Israel of 4000 years ago, nor to attempt to restore the Arabs to a point of time at the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Justice for individuals is vastly different from justice for peoples. And the achievement of justice for the one often comes at the cost of the achievement of justice for the other.

Justice is not an objective state. It is highly subjective and dependent on what each side is seeking in order to "make it right".

No legal benefit can be derived from illegal activities.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Those are the principles I go by.

Well, yes. But you only apply those principles to your side. You literally define "illegal" activities based on who is performing the activity. If Arabs are "resisting" -- legal. If Jews are "resisting" -- apartheid, illegal and all sorts of other ugliness.

You have no capability of understanding justice as a nuanced balanced concept. Justice, for you, is black and white Arabs good, Jews evil. That is not justice. That's racism.

Settler colonialism is an aggression against the Palestinians that started over a hundred years ago.

What would justice for the Jewish people look like?

Not going to get a response

 

[USAF 2023]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I might believe that if you could show or explain where the borders of Palestine are.

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

v/r
R

Today we uproot the fence, tomorrow the occupation.

Uhhh, that fence is in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

But since Arab Palestinian has NOT refrained from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means?

To my knowledge, the Arab Palestinian has not exercised the dispute resolution process either under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States or the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.

"We have already recognized Israel's existence on the 1948 borders of Occupied Palestine," Erekat explained. He added that he made it clear to former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni during a meeting in Munich that the Palestinians "won't change their history and religion and culture by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state."

Most Respectfully,
R

When did the Arab Palestinian seek a settlement of their international disputes

What dispute? I don't see a dispute.

I can. The Arabs rejected it