PA House Introduces a Resolution: The Election Process Shall Be Declared Improper.

[Coyote]

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

Let’s look at this one item.

Are you talking about Dominion?

Talking about a lot of things and possible connections between companies and who is invested in what.

In direct reference, yes to your question however. That said,

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

I seldom fight for "Trump" per se, but more the process by which people get so emotional they are willing to lie about what he says and who he is and get very upset if you don't agree.

ie, trump never said to drink bleach. yet the left swears he did.
biden can say flat out they have an elaborate voting fraud scheme but somehow that's not what he meant.

speculate what was said by one side and deny what the other flat out says.

names and people here don't matter. sides don't matter.

when you make up evidence to frame someone in a RUSSIA attack and look the other way cause you hate Trump, how can I think you are being objective to an election you feel you won?

you simply refuse to give the idea the dems are trying to pull a fast one but would rather believe someone who couldn't pull 20 people to a rally got more. votes than Obama.

I find that odd. yet if I question it, I'm a troll or being stupid.

or defending Trump.

I want to define what we are talking about not jump around constantly on the attack.

I'd rather talk issues, not people.

but we can't do that these days in identity politics.

You bring up a whole lot of stuff. Stuff that has nothing to do with the argument. Out of all that, you do't ONCE address the ISSUE I brought up.

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've lost count of times I've patiently asked for a reply and you simply ignored me.

Everyone today can point to their favorite source and cry victory.

I find the state of our media disturbing.

Not sure what *issue* you brought up, bilutci did read your opinions. I disagree with many top of the list Russia was, a legit concern. I've seen the left invent many issues and refuse to go by their own standards when they were found to be as bad if not worse than those they chose to attack and destroy.

I find it odd that you think everything the right does is wrong, everything the left does is fine and justified.

I see crap all around from everyone in a seriously tense time in our history. Both sides are on edge and attacking even "their own" to show THEY are the patriot.

This isn't about Trump to me. Who is our next president doesn't concern me in as much how we are destroying ourselves along the way in our own "justifiable" homicide.

Like I said as Hillary, Brennan and so many others wee forgiven for actions you'd, never let the right do, I said it simply sets up a "hold my beer" scenario and both sides keep pushing to the abyss because "the other side" sucks.

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.

Yet you still proclaim mail in ballots at the last minute are fine.

I do not feel that way and have a huge issue with changing our election process at the last minute and giving all kinds of allowances that simply redefined it to their purpose.

So hey, I hate something from both sides.

Tag, you're it.

And my arguments are not personal but they are not based off emotion either. For example, we can't agree if Trump succeeded or failed if you flat refuse to discuss what success criteria would look like. Not personal, defining the topic and you refused.

And what about the issue I brought up?

This was the issue:

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

 

[iceberg]

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

Let’s look at this one item.

Are you talking about Dominion?

Talking about a lot of things and possible connections between companies and who is invested in what.

In direct reference, yes to your question however. That said,

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

I seldom fight for "Trump" per se, but more the process by which people get so emotional they are willing to lie about what he says and who he is and get very upset if you don't agree.

ie, trump never said to drink bleach. yet the left swears he did.
biden can say flat out they have an elaborate voting fraud scheme but somehow that's not what he meant.

speculate what was said by one side and deny what the other flat out says.

names and people here don't matter. sides don't matter.

when you make up evidence to frame someone in a RUSSIA attack and look the other way cause you hate Trump, how can I think you are being objective to an election you feel you won?

you simply refuse to give the idea the dems are trying to pull a fast one but would rather believe someone who couldn't pull 20 people to a rally got more. votes than Obama.

I find that odd. yet if I question it, I'm a troll or being stupid.

or defending Trump.

I want to define what we are talking about not jump around constantly on the attack.

I'd rather talk issues, not people.

but we can't do that these days in identity politics.

You bring up a whole lot of stuff. Stuff that has nothing to do with the argument. Out of all that, you do't ONCE address the ISSUE I brought up.

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've lost count of times I've patiently asked for a reply and you simply ignored me.

Everyone today can point to their favorite source and cry victory.

I find the state of our media disturbing.

Not sure what *issue* you brought up, bilutci did read your opinions. I disagree with many top of the list Russia was, a legit concern. I've seen the left invent many issues and refuse to go by their own standards when they were found to be as bad if not worse than those they chose to attack and destroy.

I find it odd that you think everything the right does is wrong, everything the left does is fine and justified.

I see crap all around from everyone in a seriously tense time in our history. Both sides are on edge and attacking even "their own" to show THEY are the patriot.

This isn't about Trump to me. Who is our next president doesn't concern me in as much how we are destroying ourselves along the way in our own "justifiable" homicide.

Like I said as Hillary, Brennan and so many others wee forgiven for actions you'd, never let the right do, I said it simply sets up a "hold my beer" scenario and both sides keep pushing to the abyss because "the other side" sucks.

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.

Yet you still proclaim mail in ballots at the last minute are fine.

I do not feel that way and have a huge issue with changing our election process at the last minute and giving all kinds of allowances that simply redefined it to their purpose.

So hey, I hate something from both sides.

Tag, you're it.

And my arguments are not personal but they are not based off emotion either. For example, we can't agree if Trump succeeded or failed if you flat refuse to discuss what success criteria would look like. Not personal, defining the topic and you refused.

And what about the issue I brought up?

This was the issue:

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

So you don't actually read my posts.

again:

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.
..........
if he is acting outside law and process I am against with the same anger I am against the dems changing election laws all the time.

more details after it but I did address and directly answer your point.

 

[Coyote]

So you don't actually read my posts.

again:

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.
..........
if he is acting outside law and process I am against with the same anger I am against the dems changing election laws all the time.

more details after it but I did address and directly answer your point.

It was covered over in so many other words and scenarios, it was almost like a throw away statement, which is how I read it.

I try to deal in facts and in a trust in our basic institutions to provide a valuable check and balance to our politics. That means if candidates have a dispute, they have certain rights for resolving it. Recounts in states are automatic when the margin is below a certain percent. Recounts can always be requested (and paid for by the campaign) when the margin is wider. Candidates can also apply to our legal courts for resolution.

Here in is the problem. Legal courts require a certain amount of evidence and corroboration to move forward. In case after case, where the Trump Team filed suits, that evidence was either lacking or there were other problems with it (including outright lying). Lying to a judge carries serious penalties. That is why in one recent case, where a judge asked Guilliani outright if this was a fraud case, Giuliani had to back down and say no.

This is more than enough to tell me that there are no merits to the accusations of fraud. But instead of believing it, people are instead turning to the court of public opinion and media, which have NO standards for evidence nor is there even a requirement for a basic understanding of election law, using THAT for the foundation of their claim of widespread fraud. Why would you believe the media over our courts and our state electoral officials (who come from both parties)when it comes to this?

When this is brought up, judges get folded into the grand conspiracy (oh..it's an Obama appointee, or they are liberal activist judges)....completely overlooking the fact that some have been Bush or Trump appointees.

When it comes to election law changes we have a lot of fingers pointing with both Republicans and Democrats attempting to change things, and the following conditions overshadowing it:

1. The Covid epidemic is likely to have an affect on people voting in person, long lines, wait times, or simply to affair to vote.

2. States who have not done a lot of absentee ballot voting having to get up to speed and make sure it is secure and the Democrats, who have really been pushing this may not have had time to think it all through.

3. President Trump's appointee to the Post Office deliberately beginning to dismantle the PO's mail processing mechanisms ahead of a national election where it is widely anticipated there will be record numbers of absentee ballots cast.

4. Political jousting - Democrats attempting to widen windows for votes being cast, Republicans attempting to restrict them. Republicans adding additional impediments such as changing the laws regarding when mail in votes can begin to be processed and Democrats trying to allow votes -postmarked after Election Day. None of this, btw, is fraud.

5. Conflicting messaging. Trump telling all his voters not to vote by mail, DNC telling all their voters to vote by mail, meaning when those votes were processed (often after the in person votes were) - there was surge of votes for Biden. Not fraud.

Many of the cases of supposed "fraud" brought up were human error, and none of those resulted in anywhere near enough votes to change the results. All accusations of fraud ARE investigated in an election, and in this election none of them have shown to have any merit. When you add that to what has come out of the courts, there has been no evidence to support the allegations of "wide spread fraud" enough to alter the results in multiple states.

So WHY does Trump continue to push this? Remember, this is the same man who pre-seeded the 2016 election with claims of "rigged" and "fraud" in case he lost, and like this time, baseless.

All of the above is why I find THIS possibility (but far from probable) to be very disturbing - gumming up the works so much that the clock runs out, and it has to be decided by state legislatures or Congress. To even THINK about doing this is disturbing and goes against everything our country stands for.

In this one particular scenario, there is nothing the Dems have done in recent history that is comparable or that would have a comparable effect on our entire political system. That is not a case of "refusing to acknowledge that the left does wrong" - through out history, there is plenty of mud to go throw at both parties. But this scenario would take it to a whole other level.

And note - I'm making my arguments with no personal references on you, no digs about "emotion", strictly the issues.

 

[iceberg]

So you don't actually read my posts.

again:

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.
..........
if he is acting outside law and process I am against with the same anger I am against the dems changing election laws all the time.

more details after it but I did address and directly answer your point.

It was covered over in so many other words and scenarios, it was almost like a throw away statement, which is how I read it.

I try to deal in facts and in a trust in our basic institutions to provide a valuable check and balance to our politics. That means if candidates have a dispute, they have certain rights for resolving it. Recounts in states are automatic when the margin is below a certain percent. Recounts can always be requested (and paid for by the campaign) when the margin is wider. Candidates can also apply to our legal courts for resolution.

Here in is the problem. Legal courts require a certain amount of evidence and corroboration to move forward. In case after case, where the Trump Team filed suits, that evidence was either lacking or there were other problems with it (including outright lying). Lying to a judge carries serious penalties. That is why in one recent case, where a judge asked Guilliani outright if this was a fraud case, Giuliani had to back down and say no.

This is more than enough to tell me that there are no merits to the accusations of fraud. But instead of believing it, people are instead turning to the court of public opinion and media, which have NO standards for evidence nor is there even a requirement for a basic understanding of election law, using THAT for the foundation of their claim of widespread fraud. Why would you believe the media over our courts and our state electoral officials (who come from both parties)when it comes to this?

When this is brought up, judges get folded into the grand conspiracy (oh..it's an Obama appointee, or they are liberal activist judges)....completely overlooking the fact that some have been Bush or Trump appointees.

When it comes to election law changes we have a lot of fingers pointing with both Republicans and Democrats attempting to change things, and the following conditions overshadowing it:

1. The Covid epidemic is likely to have an affect on people voting in person, long lines, wait times, or simply to affair to vote.

2. States who have not done a lot of absentee ballot voting having to get up to speed and make sure it is secure and the Democrats, who have really been pushing this may not have had time to think it all through.

3. President Trump's appointee to the Post Office deliberately beginning to dismantle the PO's mail processing mechanisms ahead of a national election where it is widely anticipated there will be record numbers of absentee ballots cast.

4. Political jousting - Democrats attempting to widen windows for votes being cast, Republicans attempting to restrict them. Republicans adding additional impediments such as changing the laws regarding when mail in votes can begin to be processed and Democrats trying to allow votes -postmarked after Election Day. None of this, btw, is fraud.

5. Conflicting messaging. Trump telling all his voters not to vote by mail, DNC telling all their voters to vote by mail, meaning when those votes were processed (often after the in person votes were) - there was surge of votes for Biden. Not fraud.

Many of the cases of supposed "fraud" brought up were human error, and none of those resulted in anywhere near enough votes to change the results. All accusations of fraud ARE investigated in an election, and in this election none of them have shown to have any merit. When you add that to what has come out of the courts, there has been no evidence to support the allegations of "wide spread fraud" enough to alter the results in multiple states.

So WHY does Trump continue to push this? Remember, this is the same man who pre-seeded the 2016 election with claims of "rigged" and "fraud" in case he lost, and like this time, baseless.

All of the above is why I find THIS possibility (but far from probable) to be very disturbing - gumming up the works so much that the clock runs out, and it has to be decided by state legislatures or Congress. To even THINK about doing this is disturbing and goes against everything our country stands for.

In this one particular scenario, there is nothing the Dems have done in recent history that is comparable or that would have a comparable effect on our entire political system. That is not a case of "refusing to acknowledge that the left does wrong" - through out history, there is plenty of mud to go throw at both parties. But this scenario would take it to a whole other level.

And note - I'm making my arguments with no personal references on you, no digs about "emotion", strictly the issues.

i try to be complete in my answers. if you're going to consider what i say "throw away" please tell me why i should not do the same and simply believe everything you say and try to explain about YOUR point of view i should not do the same for?

when i treat you as you treat me, you get pretty pissed.
when i try to simply clarify these "facts" (ie, please tell me how you'd consider the wall paid for by mexico) you get pissed.

so no, i don't find you involved in fact finding, but validation of your own "facts" instead. this is not a slam but how i perceive your posts. i could well be wrong but you take my statements as "throw away" when they address your questions directly. doesn't put me in a good spot TO reply, does it?

now, every action you name above i can easily apply to the democrats.

"gumming up the works" - didn't changing our entire voting system cause confusion we're now sorting through? in my mind, they did this to "gum up the works" and cause the confusion we're now in. i know if i have 10 people on a project at work and give them 1 thing to do, i'll get 10 questions on how it's done. so training, testing, ensuring it works properly - ALL THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE before you go changing how we vote for the leader of the strongest country on the planet. you're ok with "well other states do it so hush".

to me this is the same as saying THE LEFT wishes to cause mass amounts of confusion they can take advantage of and gets mad when you try to say "what are the facts exactly" (ie, what would constitute mexico paying for the wall) you get pissed.

i don't want anyone on EITHER GOD DAMN SIDE changing process and policy "on the fly" for the gain of one side over the other. I don't care who did what first, i care how far this has gotten out of hand all around. for you to defend the left til your dying breath and not acknowledge how their own actions have contributed to the very things you find distasteful today again, puts me in a bad spot.

i either agree with you or i'm a trolling asshole. i simply see no point in that mentality. you've never really discussed issues with me in as much as laid down your law and get mad when i have questions on how to better define a "common understanding" we can build out from.

and now when i try to answer as honestly and fully as i can, you tell me i'm giving you "throw away statements".

where do i go from here to be able to offer my own DIFFERENT opinions and not be yelled at, talked down to, or called a trolling asshole because you don't like my questions? if the only way to NOT have a "throw away" statement to you is agree with all you say - well ain't gonna happen.

now what, chief?

 

[Coyote]

now, every action you name above i can easily apply to the democrats.

In that list of actions around the election, I already pointed out both parties were attempting to manipulate laws to benefit their side. The one exception to this is Trump's actions regarding the post office.

In my view, voting is a fundamental right in our system of governance, and it is a right that for some groups, has many impediments. I dont care what party you belong to, I support efforts to make voting safe, secure, accessible and oppose those efforts that would curtail it.

"gumming up the works" - didn't changing our entire voting system cause confusion we're now sorting through? in my mind, they did this to "gum up the works" and cause the confusion we're now in. i know if i have 10 people on a project at work and give them 1 thing to do, i'll get 10 questions on how it's done. so training, testing, ensuring it works properly - ALL THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE before you go changing how we vote for the leader of the strongest country on the planet. you're ok with "well other states do it so hush".

Actually, our entire voting system did NOT change. We have always had absentee voting. Some states have long had mail in voting where ballots are automatically sent out to registered voters. Some states have long had no-excuse absentee ballots. And, some states have long had a lot of their ballots cast via mail. The primaries were conducted heavily by mail. And all states still had voting at the polls.

to me this is the same as saying THE LEFT wishes to cause mass amounts of confusion they can take advantage of and gets mad when you try to say "what are the facts exactly" (ie, what would constitute mexico paying for the wall) you get pissed.

Who is REALLY causing mass amounts of confusion? For example, spreading disinformation and sowing confusion about mail in voting? Or...attempting to force slowdowns at the Post Office level?

i don't want anyone on EITHER GOD DAMN SIDE changing process and policy "on the fly" for the gain of one side over the other. I don't care who did what first, i care how far this has gotten out of hand all around. for you to defend the left til your dying breath and not acknowledge how their own actions have contributed to the very things you find distasteful today again, puts me in a bad spot.

For the most part, processes and policies were not changed on the fly - we had the primaries to learn from. And, as I said already (and you didn't read either...so it's not just me not reading your posts) - both sides were trying to change some of the rules.

where do i go from here to be able to offer my own DIFFERENT opinions and not be yelled at, talked down to, or called a trolling asshole because you don't like my questions? if the only way to NOT have a "throw away" statement to you is agree with all you say - well ain't gonna happen.

now what, chief?

Now what? It seems like...if we disagree...I'm "yelling at you"...or "talking down to you" when all I'm doing is countering your arguments. I have no problem with disagreeing, agreeing to disagree, but it sure seems like if I do so...it doesn't sit well with you and you accuse me of getting emotion. Not going to get into any of the other personal stuff as I'm trying to stick to the issues.

 

[The Original Tree]

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

Let’s look at this one item.

Are you talking about Dominion?

Talking about a lot of things and possible connections between companies and who is invested in what.

In direct reference, yes to your question however. That said,

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

I seldom fight for "Trump" per se, but more the process by which people get so emotional they are willing to lie about what he says and who he is and get very upset if you don't agree.

ie, trump never said to drink bleach. yet the left swears he did.
biden can say flat out they have an elaborate voting fraud scheme but somehow that's not what he meant.

speculate what was said by one side and deny what the other flat out says.

names and people here don't matter. sides don't matter.

when you make up evidence to frame someone in a RUSSIA attack and look the other way cause you hate Trump, how can I think you are being objective to an election you feel you won?

you simply refuse to give the idea the dems are trying to pull a fast one but would rather believe someone who couldn't pull 20 people to a rally got more. votes than Obama.

I find that odd. yet if I question it, I'm a troll or being stupid.

or defending Trump.

I want to define what we are talking about not jump around constantly on the attack.

I'd rather talk issues, not people.

but we can't do that these days in identity politics.

You bring up a whole lot of stuff. Stuff that has nothing to do with the argument. Out of all that, you do't ONCE address the ISSUE I brought up.

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've lost count of times I've patiently asked for a reply and you simply ignored me.

Everyone today can point to their favorite source and cry victory.

I find the state of our media disturbing.

Not sure what *issue* you brought up, bilutci did read your opinions. I disagree with many top of the list Russia was, a legit concern. I've seen the left invent many issues and refuse to go by their own standards when they were found to be as bad if not worse than those they chose to attack and destroy.

I find it odd that you think everything the right does is wrong, everything the left does is fine and justified.

I see crap all around from everyone in a seriously tense time in our history. Both sides are on edge and attacking even "their own" to show THEY are the patriot.

This isn't about Trump to me. Who is our next president doesn't concern me in as much how we are destroying ourselves along the way in our own "justifiable" homicide.

Like I said as Hillary, Brennan and so many others wee forgiven for actions you'd, never let the right do, I said it simply sets up a "hold my beer" scenario and both sides keep pushing to the abyss because "the other side" sucks.

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.

Yet you still proclaim mail in ballots at the last minute are fine.

I do not feel that way and have a huge issue with changing our election process at the last minute and giving all kinds of allowances that simply redefined it to their purpose.

So hey, I hate something from both sides.

Tag, you're it.

And my arguments are not personal but they are not based off emotion either. For example, we can't agree if Trump succeeded or failed if you flat refuse to discuss what success criteria would look like. Not personal, defining the topic and you refused.

And what about the issue I brought up?

This was the issue:

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

If an election has massive voter fraud, then it cannot be certified even if they attempt to certify it. The Certification and The Election are INVALID.

The Legislature has the right to appoint Electors that will vote their conscience in the event of a COUP, or the attempt to steal an election occurs.

If you don't like that idea, then what should be done is either a Forensic Audit, or hold a new election that will be highly scrutinized and all election laws are enforced.

 

[iceberg]

now, every action you name above i can easily apply to the democrats.

In that list of actions around the election, I already pointed out both parties were attempting to manipulate laws to benefit their side. The one exception to this is Trump's actions regarding the post office.

In my view, voting is a fundamental right in our system of governance, and it is a right that for some groups, has many impediments. I dont care what party you belong to, I support efforts to make voting safe, secure, accessible and oppose those efforts that would curtail it.

"gumming up the works" - didn't changing our entire voting system cause confusion we're now sorting through? in my mind, they did this to "gum up the works" and cause the confusion we're now in. i know if i have 10 people on a project at work and give them 1 thing to do, i'll get 10 questions on how it's done. so training, testing, ensuring it works properly - ALL THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE before you go changing how we vote for the leader of the strongest country on the planet. you're ok with "well other states do it so hush".

Actually, our entire voting system did NOT change. We have always had absentee voting. Some states have long had mail in voting where ballots are automatically sent out to registered voters. Some states have long had no-excuse absentee ballots. And, some states have long had a lot of their ballots cast via mail. The primaries were conducted heavily by mail. And all states still had voting at the polls.

to me this is the same as saying THE LEFT wishes to cause mass amounts of confusion they can take advantage of and gets mad when you try to say "what are the facts exactly" (ie, what would constitute mexico paying for the wall) you get pissed.

Who is REALLY causing mass amounts of confusion? For example, spreading disinformation and sowing confusion about mail in voting? Or...attempting to force slowdowns at the Post Office level?

i don't want anyone on EITHER GOD DAMN SIDE changing process and policy "on the fly" for the gain of one side over the other. I don't care who did what first, i care how far this has gotten out of hand all around. for you to defend the left til your dying breath and not acknowledge how their own actions have contributed to the very things you find distasteful today again, puts me in a bad spot.

For the most part, processes and policies were not changed on the fly - we had the primaries to learn from. And, as I said already (and you didn't read either...so it's not just me not reading your posts) - both sides were trying to change some of the rules.

where do i go from here to be able to offer my own DIFFERENT opinions and not be yelled at, talked down to, or called a trolling asshole because you don't like my questions? if the only way to NOT have a "throw away" statement to you is agree with all you say - well ain't gonna happen.

now what, chief?

Now what? It seems like...if we disagree...I'm "yelling at you"...or "talking down to you" when all I'm doing is countering your arguments. I have no problem with disagreeing, agreeing to disagree, but it sure seems like if I do so...it doesn't sit well with you and you accuse me of getting emotion. Not going to get into any of the other personal stuff as I'm trying to stick to the issues.

You yell at me when I ask you things like what can constitute Mexico paying for the wall. I'm sticking to the issue, toy are telling me I'm trolling and are going to ignore me again.

absentee is not the same. you know this.

how did they decide who to mail ballots to? disinformation heh, really?

when did Trump try to slow down the mail? when did Trump say to drink bleach? was Trump the first to put kids in cages? who cries at empty fields in a pretty white suit?

when you attack the other side while fsil9 g to see your own inclusion in said actions, it really makes you saying you stick to facts a punch line to a long bad joke.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Funny, Colorado has used this type of software/Hardware for at lest 20 years without these problems. Are you saying that we are just smarter than either Penn or any of the others? I would like to think so but that's probably not the case. We've just been at it longer. And there is absolutely no proof or evidence to your claims. Comon, you are smarter than that.

I don't know much about it. That's why I watched that expert yesterday. You learn a lot of things that way. He's not talking about one thing was amiss, he's talking about a dozen things that appear to be wrong and simply don't add up.

I know you're smart enough to understand that boring Joe who couldn't fill a high school gymnasium for rallies couldn't have possibly drew all those people to vote for him. It's not like it's just a lot of people, but a record amount of people. If Obama did that, I could understand it better, but Joe? No possible way unless there was a hell of a lot of cheating going on.

It's not about filling a gym or a theater. It's about sending Rump down the road. I've said it all along that a ham sandwich could win against him. And I was right. And the longer this drags on, the more it proves I was right.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It's not about filling a gym or a theater. It's about sending Rump down the road. I've said it all along that a ham sandwich could win against him. And I was right. And the longer this drags on, the more it proves I was right.

Now if Trump had an abysmal turnout, you might have a point. But more people voted for him this time than last. So apparently what happened is not only did he keep his base, the grew it, especially with minorities. He had the most voters in history for any incumbent President. So again, something is very wrong here.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's not about filling a gym or a theater. It's about sending Rump down the road. I've said it all along that a ham sandwich could win against him. And I was right. And the longer this drags on, the more it proves I was right.

Now if Trump had an abysmal turnout, you might have a point. But more people voted for him this time than last. So apparently what happened is not only did he keep his base, the grew it, especially with minorities. He had the most voters in history for any incumbent President. So again, something is very wrong here.

What's wrong is that we are dealing with a world class Con Artist one that the US has never seen before. Usually, even a Politician will have some redeemable qualities but not in this case. We all expected to see those qualities and Rump fed to those expectations.

I started to compare his speeches with other leaders before him and had a rude awakening. One that you haven't had quite yet. And I found his methods were taken right out of the 1926 Mussolini playbook that brought us Fascism at a Worlds Level. All of a sudden, his "Fake News", attempt at gaining control of the Supreme Court, Congress and many other things made sense. And the only two things standing in his way were two documents; the Constitution of the United States and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not that he didn't try.

Rump came along at the right time for a wannabe dictator to gain a foothold. Much like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and a handful of others did. And his phrase, "And Only I can Fix things" were also said by other soon to be (and failed) Dictators. The Nation is hurting right now on both sides. And both sides have zero interest in fixing things unless "They" are the ones to fix it. Hence the huge turnout of voters this time around. What you and the others (both sides) don't understand is that a President is incapable of fixing MOST of these problems. The Fixes are closer to home in almost all cases. Yes, even with Covid in the mix.

So we have two groups that are looking for a "Champion" and voting that way. One votes for a Con Artist that we haven't seen the likes of since 1945 and the other is voting for ........ against the Con Artist. I voted, primarily, a Republican ticket but I did NOT vote for Rump since I see him as something evil and needing to be sent packing. You voted a single party ticket which is your right. But you are now trying to justify that decision.

There have been more than 5 million votes for Biden than Rump. You can't change that. The Voters have spoken in what is one of the very few real Democratic procedures we have today. I keep seeing every dirty trick in to book to bury the Democratic Procedure just because it didn't give you the results you agreed with. As I said, I vote primarily a Republican Down Ballot and many of the issues on the Ballot were defeated. I am going to have to live with them but I don't have to like them. What I won't do is go into a fit to get them overturned. Maybe next time, we can get them back on the ballot after the public sees just how bad they are. Believe it or not, I believe in the system even when it doesn't go my way.

In the last 10 years, I watched the Republican party turned into something more akin to the Fascist Party. All of a sudden, us old style "Gop" were now labeled "RINO" and, essentially, spat upon. It wasn't the Dems that decided that Rump had to go It was us "RINOS". We made that decision. Next, we are going after the Party of the Rumpers that won't make ammends. If it means giving the Dems 4 years to do their brand of insanity then that's the price we pay for change. We have 2 years to rebuild. You can work with us or not. I would rather you did work with us. But first, you are going to have to "Make the walk of Shame".

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What's wrong is that we are dealing with a world class Con Artist one that the US has never seen before. Usually, even a Politician will have some redeemable qualities but not in this case. We all expected to see those qualities and Rump fed to those expectations.

I started to compare his speeches with other leaders before him and had a rude awakening. One that you haven't had quite yet. And I found his methods were taken right out of the 1926 Mussolini playbook that brought us Fascism at a Worlds Level. All of a sudden, his "Fake News", attempt at gaining control of the Supreme Court, Congress and many other things made sense. And the only two things standing in his way were two documents; the Constitution of the United States and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not that he didn't try.

Rump came along at the right time for a wannabe dictator to gain a foothold. Much like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and a handful of others did. And his phrase, "And Only I can Fix things" were also said by other soon to be (and failed) Dictators. The Nation is hurting right now on both sides. And both sides have zero interest in fixing things unless "They" are the ones to fix it. Hence the huge turnout of voters this time around. What you and the others (both sides) don't understand is that a President is incapable of fixing MOST of these problems. The Fixes are closer to home in almost all cases. Yes, even with Covid in the mix.

So we have two groups that are looking for a "Champion" and voting that way. One votes for a Con Artist that we haven't seen the likes of since 1945 and the other is voting for ........ against the Con Artist. I voted, primarily, a Republican ticket but I did NOT vote for Rump since I see him as something evil and needing to be sent packing. You voted a single party ticket which is your right. But you are now trying to justify that decision.

There have been more than 5 million votes for Biden than Rump. You can't change that. The Voters have spoken in what is one of the very few real Democratic procedures we have today. I keep seeing every dirty trick in to book to bury the Democratic Procedure just because it didn't give you the results you agreed with. As I said, I vote primarily a Republican Down Ballot and many of the issues on the Ballot were defeated. I am going to have to live with them but I don't have to like them. What I won't do is go into a fit to get them overturned. Maybe next time, we can get them back on the ballot after the public sees just how bad they are. Believe it or not, I believe in the system even when it doesn't go my way.

In the last 10 years, I watched the Republican party turned into something more akin to the Fascist Party. All of a sudden, us old style "Gop" were now labeled "RINO" and, essentially, spat upon. It wasn't the Dems that decided that Rump had to go It was us "RINOS". We made that decision. Next, we are going after the Party of the Rumpers that won't make ammends. If it means giving the Dems 4 years to do their brand of insanity then that's the price we pay for change. We have 2 years to rebuild. You can work with us or not. I would rather you did work with us. But first, you are going to have to "Make the walk of Shame".

I will never work with commies.

If you watch team Trump and their evidence, it's more than clear something went wrong: software used that's easily manipulated for a desired outcome, ballots going to polls days after the election was over, poll workers who kept opposition overseers so far away they couldn't see anything, in Detroit, putting cover over the windows so nobody could observe the counting, sudden changes in the leader only in places that shutdown for the night and came back the next day, down ballots that are more than a hundred fold of any past election. There is just too much to list.

Will it change anything, I don't know. But I can't believe we have so many politically ignorant people in this country to actually vote for this clown with dementia, who's every policy promises expense and destruction of our economy.

I will always be fine. You better worry about yourself what this guy is going to do, and remember, you brought it on yourself.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

What's wrong is that we are dealing with a world class Con Artist one that the US has never seen before. Usually, even a Politician will have some redeemable qualities but not in this case. We all expected to see those qualities and Rump fed to those expectations.

I started to compare his speeches with other leaders before him and had a rude awakening. One that you haven't had quite yet. And I found his methods were taken right out of the 1926 Mussolini playbook that brought us Fascism at a Worlds Level. All of a sudden, his "Fake News", attempt at gaining control of the Supreme Court, Congress and many other things made sense. And the only two things standing in his way were two documents; the Constitution of the United States and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not that he didn't try.

Rump came along at the right time for a wannabe dictator to gain a foothold. Much like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and a handful of others did. And his phrase, "And Only I can Fix things" were also said by other soon to be (and failed) Dictators. The Nation is hurting right now on both sides. And both sides have zero interest in fixing things unless "They" are the ones to fix it. Hence the huge turnout of voters this time around. What you and the others (both sides) don't understand is that a President is incapable of fixing MOST of these problems. The Fixes are closer to home in almost all cases. Yes, even with Covid in the mix.

So we have two groups that are looking for a "Champion" and voting that way. One votes for a Con Artist that we haven't seen the likes of since 1945 and the other is voting for ........ against the Con Artist. I voted, primarily, a Republican ticket but I did NOT vote for Rump since I see him as something evil and needing to be sent packing. You voted a single party ticket which is your right. But you are now trying to justify that decision.

There have been more than 5 million votes for Biden than Rump. You can't change that. The Voters have spoken in what is one of the very few real Democratic procedures we have today. I keep seeing every dirty trick in to book to bury the Democratic Procedure just because it didn't give you the results you agreed with. As I said, I vote primarily a Republican Down Ballot and many of the issues on the Ballot were defeated. I am going to have to live with them but I don't have to like them. What I won't do is go into a fit to get them overturned. Maybe next time, we can get them back on the ballot after the public sees just how bad they are. Believe it or not, I believe in the system even when it doesn't go my way.

In the last 10 years, I watched the Republican party turned into something more akin to the Fascist Party. All of a sudden, us old style "Gop" were now labeled "RINO" and, essentially, spat upon. It wasn't the Dems that decided that Rump had to go It was us "RINOS". We made that decision. Next, we are going after the Party of the Rumpers that won't make ammends. If it means giving the Dems 4 years to do their brand of insanity then that's the price we pay for change. We have 2 years to rebuild. You can work with us or not. I would rather you did work with us. But first, you are going to have to "Make the walk of Shame".

I will never work with commies.

If you watch team Trump and their evidence, it's more than clear something went wrong: software used that's easily manipulated for a desired outcome, ballots going to polls days after the election was over, poll workers who kept opposition overseers so far away they couldn't see anything, in Detroit, putting cover over the windows so nobody could observe the counting, sudden changes in the leader only in places that shutdown for the night and came back the next day, down ballots that are more than a hundred fold of any past election. There is just too much to list.

Will it change anything, I don't know. But I can't believe we have so many politically ignorant people in this country to actually vote for this clown with dementia, who's every policy promises expense and destruction of our economy.

I will always be fine. You better worry about yourself what this guy is going to do, and remember, you brought it on yourself.

Actually, you brought it on the rest of us Republicans. And you continue even today. We are trying to correct it. We know how bad the Dems are. But when the Reps became even worse, it was time to step and in. Rump is gone. Biden didn't win. Rump lost.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Actually, you brought it on the rest of us Republicans. And you continue even today. We are trying to correct it. We know how bad the Dems are. But when the Reps became even worse, it was time to step and in. Rump is gone. Biden didn't win. Rump lost.

That remains to be seen. Trump has been the best President since Reagan. Nobody in our lifetime has done more on the illegal immigration problem. Few have presided over such an economy before the virus. Even after the virus, Trump took strong actions to try and balance out between the economy and safety, while at the same time, pressuring the private market to help come up with a solution. Thanks to operation Warp Speed, now they are saying a vaccine may be available before Christmas.

So how is Trump worse than Democrats? Keep your opinion of his personality out of it.

 

[Contumacious]

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

Let’s look at this one item.

Are you talking about Dominion?

Talking about a lot of things and possible connections between companies and who is invested in what.

In direct reference, yes to your question however. That said,

get pretty tired of this "will of the people" when neither extreme viewpoint seems to give a damn about "the will of the people" - it's simply a phrase they use to try and gain sympathy for THEIR viewpoint.

When we have a record turn out election, with both candidates getting a record number of votes, EVER in our history, and an interesting mixture of results that send out some pretty strong messages, then yes, I think we can honestly call this a reflection of the electorate’s feelings.

What did they say?

1. This isn’t a referendum on either party’s platform. It is a referendum on Trump personally with strong feelings for and against.

2. Take away for the Dems: you still aren’t getting it right.

3. Take away for the Republicans: Trump May control your base, but your base isn’t enough to win a Presidential election.

The people could not have been more clear.

this is not a legitimate election. the entire mail out ballot scenario were never tested, never secured, and so on. your assuming all is well. how come you're OK with totally redoing our voting process in favor of YOUR candidate yet suddenly are worried about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

It absolutely was legitimate and your claims are false.

1. It was never tested.

Yes, it has been tested. A number of states have had no-excuse absentee ballots and mail in ballots for years as have members of the military.

2. “Never secured”
Also untrue. States utilize a number of procedures (varying by state) to secure the integrity of the ballot. These include signature verification, ballot tracking procedures, etc.

3. How come...blah blah blah. I never questioned the results of the 2016 election when “your guy won”, despite it totally upending the polls, with Trump winning some states with even more narrow margins than Biden and Trump, and, when he thought he might lose, seeding the field with allegations of rigging and fraud, just like he did this time. “How come” you never questioned the results?

Conclusion: we have a system for adjudicating election disputes. Each candidate has every right to dispute it, ask for recounts, apply to the courts. As we have seen, Trump has done that,and over and over, NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD has materialized. The election is only illegitimate because “your guy” lost, and is taking it to the Court of Public Opinion, since he lacks the evidence to win in court. His own lawyers even had to admit they couldn’t show fraud.

My opinion: Trump and his supporters are hoping to run out the clock on the certification through endless lawsuits, and have electors chosen by (the mostly Republican) state legislatures who would, of course vote Trump.

My question to you: is the above acceptable to you?

My claims are not false, you just don't like them.

And since 5his is YOUR OPINION, what difference does it make if I find it acceptable?

The left spent 3 years chasing RUSSIA when they created most of the evidence. They felt it valid to look into.

Great. Now the right finds this worth looking into and should be given the opportunity.

I want to make sure our elections and TRUE will of the people isn't being danced around cause you really really really really hate Trump.

Your claims are unsubstianted and laughed out of the courts of law.

But but but Russia!

Deflection.

here we go again.

no point in talking to you because you do this *every single time*. i try to establish what we're talking about and your clear opinion and you tell me i'm trolling and choose to ignore me for a week.

"deflection"? not at all. in 2016, "precedent" was set that if you question an election you can go nuts to attack the winner and make accusations. you can't allow 1 side to do something and the other NOT to do it as well. this is where we get our divides. different sets of rules for people based on "feelz".

i've tried to take out the "but whatever" and for a brief moment, we BOTH agreed to not do that anymore. you went right back to doing it and got mad at me for calling you on it.

now i try to do it and you again get mad.

in fact, i reply, you get mad. maybe it's not me.

Oh good grief Iceberg. You are an intelligent man. I just don’t get why you keep resorting to these type highly personal arguments. Get over it. I'm trying to. Can you?

You and I have some very distinct and different perspectives. You see Trump as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one. I don’t. I see Obama as uniquely and viciously attacked from day one (and on throughout Trump’s presidency). We do not agree here. That should be ok. I am ok with it.

When I answered your post I made a real effort to address the claims (not get personal) you made about legitimacy. From my perspective, 2016 was legitimate. Yes, the Russians attempted and did interfere, but they did not alter voting machines and there is no way to quantify what effect their disinformation might have had on the electorate. Fast forward to 2020. Trump starts seeding fraud claims as soon as it starts to look like he really might lose. None of those claims hold up in our courts. The fact that you, and others continue to push those claims is, IMO, disturbing.

We have a process of settling election disputes. And that is through our courts. But what I seem to be hearing is...the courts are wrong.

When you involve the judiciary in those evergrowing conspiracy...where does it stop Iceberg? You have a populist president, unwilling to accept defeat, slowly but surely destroying public trust in our very institutions of democracy.

In my view, even though it is highly unlikely, I find it incredibly disturbing that Trump and other Republicans would even attempt to have state legislatures override the vote and pick electors favorable to Trump hugely disturbing. Don’t you? This time it is Republican...next time it could be Dems. Precedents are set.

I've found a lot of things odd about our entire gov and the bullshit way both sides try and get things done.

I find it disturbing we use a voting system that got the Venezuela press elected. I find it disturbing the left refuses to believe ANYTHING in this election was even a little off or improper.

I seldom fight for "Trump" per se, but more the process by which people get so emotional they are willing to lie about what he says and who he is and get very upset if you don't agree.

ie, trump never said to drink bleach. yet the left swears he did.
biden can say flat out they have an elaborate voting fraud scheme but somehow that's not what he meant.

speculate what was said by one side and deny what the other flat out says.

names and people here don't matter. sides don't matter.

when you make up evidence to frame someone in a RUSSIA attack and look the other way cause you hate Trump, how can I think you are being objective to an election you feel you won?

you simply refuse to give the idea the dems are trying to pull a fast one but would rather believe someone who couldn't pull 20 people to a rally got more. votes than Obama.

I find that odd. yet if I question it, I'm a troll or being stupid.

or defending Trump.

I want to define what we are talking about not jump around constantly on the attack.

I'd rather talk issues, not people.

but we can't do that these days in identity politics.

You bring up a whole lot of stuff. Stuff that has nothing to do with the argument. Out of all that, you do't ONCE address the ISSUE I brought up.

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've lost count of times I've patiently asked for a reply and you simply ignored me.

Everyone today can point to their favorite source and cry victory.

I find the state of our media disturbing.

Not sure what *issue* you brought up, bilutci did read your opinions. I disagree with many top of the list Russia was, a legit concern. I've seen the left invent many issues and refuse to go by their own standards when they were found to be as bad if not worse than those they chose to attack and destroy.

I find it odd that you think everything the right does is wrong, everything the left does is fine and justified.

I see crap all around from everyone in a seriously tense time in our history. Both sides are on edge and attacking even "their own" to show THEY are the patriot.

This isn't about Trump to me. Who is our next president doesn't concern me in as much how we are destroying ourselves along the way in our own "justifiable" homicide.

Like I said as Hillary, Brennan and so many others wee forgiven for actions you'd, never let the right do, I said it simply sets up a "hold my beer" scenario and both sides keep pushing to the abyss because "the other side" sucks.

What is real and not real is, anyone's guess, by a screwed up media design. If Trump is in fact trying to circumvent the system I am against that just as much as if the dems *are* playing ballot games with ever changing rules that oddly enough the courts have said thry didn't have the power to do.

Yet you still proclaim mail in ballots at the last minute are fine.

I do not feel that way and have a huge issue with changing our election process at the last minute and giving all kinds of allowances that simply redefined it to their purpose.

So hey, I hate something from both sides.

Tag, you're it.

And my arguments are not personal but they are not based off emotion either. For example, we can't agree if Trump succeeded or failed if you flat refuse to discuss what success criteria would look like. Not personal, defining the topic and you refused.

And what about the issue I brought up?

This was the issue:

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

If an election has massive voter fraud, then it cannot be certified even if they attempt to certify it. The Certification and The Election are INVALID.

The Legislature has the right to appoint Electors that will vote their conscience in the event of a COUP, or the attempt to steal an election occurs.

If you don't like that idea, then what should be done is either a Forensic Audit, or hold a new election that will be highly scrutinized and all election laws are enforced.

And that is PRECISELY what the US House of Representatives will do .

They can not possible ignore the gargantuan amount evidence showing beyond reasonable doubt that FRAUD occurred.


.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Partisan LEGISLATURES picking electors to overturn an election.

If the slate of EC Delegates is chosen by the legislature independent of the results of the election because it was hopelessly corrupted and no one could legally certify it, the election was overturned by the corruption, not the legislature.

 

[JimBowie1958]

That remains to be seen. Trump has been the best President since Reagan Lincoln.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Faun]

Actually, you brought it on the rest of us Republicans. And you continue even today. We are trying to correct it. We know how bad the Dems are. But when the Reps became even worse, it was time to step and in. Rump is gone. Biden didn't win. Rump lost.

That remains to be seen. Trump has been the best President since Reagan. Nobody in our lifetime has done more on the illegal immigration problem. Few have presided over such an economy before the virus. Even after the virus, Trump took strong actions to try and balance out between the economy and safety, while at the same time, pressuring the private market to help come up with a solution. Thanks to operation Warp Speed, now they are saying a vaccine may be available before Christmas.

So how is Trump worse than Democrats? Keep your opinion of his personality out of it.

LOL

Best presidents get re-elected.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Actually, you brought it on the rest of us Republicans. And you continue even today. We are trying to correct it. We know how bad the Dems are. But when the Reps became even worse, it was time to step and in. Rump is gone. Biden didn't win. Rump lost.

That remains to be seen. Trump has been the best President since Reagan. Nobody in our lifetime has done more on the illegal immigration problem. Few have presided over such an economy before the virus. Even after the virus, Trump took strong actions to try and balance out between the economy and safety, while at the same time, pressuring the private market to help come up with a solution. Thanks to operation Warp Speed, now they are saying a vaccine may be available before Christmas.

So how is Trump worse than Democrats? Keep your opinion of his personality out of it.

I'll just take one thing. Taking credit for other's efforts. He made up a snazzy name of "Operation Warp Speed". That method goes all the way back to the Spanish Flu, Polio, Small Pox and beyond that. We just called it Military Relief. In my over 20 years, I loaded Pallets of Medical Supplies on Aircraft, fought forest fires, and a few other things. AS for getting the medication to the various outlets, it's always been the Military that does this. One thing the Military does best, better than any other is logistics. We move large amounts of things quickly. During the Wars, we did it to keep the front lines moving forward. But in peacetime, we do it to get the equipment, supplies and medicine to where it is badly needed. Operation Warpspeed is just a fancy name for what the Military does when an emergency comes up. And Rump didn't invent it nor did he have anything to do with creating, managing or anything else. He just hung a fancy name on a program that already existed and would have kicked in no matter whom was President.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I'll just take one thing. Taking credit for other's efforts. He made up a snazzy name of "Operation Warp Speed". That method goes all the way back to the Spanish Flu, Polio, Small Pox and beyond that. We just called it Military Relief. In my over 20 years, I loaded Pallets of Medical Supplies on Aircraft, fought forest fires, and a few other things. AS for getting the medication to the various outlets, it's always been the Military that does this. One thing the Military does best, better than any other is logistics. We move large amounts of things quickly. During the Wars, we did it to keep the front lines moving forward. But in peacetime, we do it to get the equipment, supplies and medicine to where it is badly needed. Operation Warpspeed is just a fancy name for what the Military does when an emergency comes up. And Rump didn't invent it nor did he have anything to do with creating, managing or anything else. He just hung a fancy name on a program that already existed and would have kicked in no matter whom was President.

I guess you never heard of the term Commander and Chief.

I said nothing about the military, I'm talking about his funding to the various companies to produce a vaccine and PPE's. I'm talking about putting pressure on our agencies like the FDA and CDC. I'm talking about issuing travel bans which the Democrats would have never have done if in charge. His fantastic policies that greatly slowed down illegal immigration to our country before the virus even hit; something else the Democrat would have never have done. In fact, they would have done the exact opposite.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I'll just take one thing. Taking credit for other's efforts. He made up a snazzy name of "Operation Warp Speed". That method goes all the way back to the Spanish Flu, Polio, Small Pox and beyond that. We just called it Military Relief. In my over 20 years, I loaded Pallets of Medical Supplies on Aircraft, fought forest fires, and a few other things. AS for getting the medication to the various outlets, it's always been the Military that does this. One thing the Military does best, better than any other is logistics. We move large amounts of things quickly. During the Wars, we did it to keep the front lines moving forward. But in peacetime, we do it to get the equipment, supplies and medicine to where it is badly needed. Operation Warpspeed is just a fancy name for what the Military does when an emergency comes up. And Rump didn't invent it nor did he have anything to do with creating, managing or anything else. He just hung a fancy name on a program that already existed and would have kicked in no matter whom was President.

I guess you never heard of the term Commander and Chief.

I said nothing about the military, I'm talking about his funding to the various companies to produce a vaccine and PPE's. I'm talking about putting pressure on our agencies like the FDA and CDC. I'm talking about issuing travel bans which the Democrats would have never have done if in charge. His fantastic policies that greatly slowed down illegal immigration to our country before the virus even hit; something else the Democrat would have never have done. In fact, they would have done the exact opposite.

Let's look at those.

In Jan, there were 15 cases of Covid 19 in the United States and they were isolated to one small area. Rump put a travel restriction, not a travel ban on China. There were still incoming flights from China into LAX and other Western Seaboard Cities. In Jan and Feb, more than 40,000 people came in from those flights. By March, the Covid 19 had turned into a raving Pandemic. There was NO travel ban, only a travel restriction that did exactly zero good.

Okay, let's look at funding. The Feds have always provided funding. to give you an idea, when you get charged bookoo bucks for that Epipen, think of this. The actual money spent to develop it, test it was all done by the Federal Government. In fact, the Feds own the patent. Anyone that is authorized to produce pharmes can produce it royalty free. The Pharmes are making billions on something that is cheap to make and they don't have to pay the inventor a dime. Rump grabbing the laurels on this type of program is a lie. He had nothing to do with it. In fact, Germany has more to do with it than the US does since that's the lab that first discovered the first successful vaccine for Covid 19. You left out the fact that Pfizer was also coordinating with the University of Oxford where the actual testing was done along with the creation. You also left out the other 58 countries that contributed millions of dollars. The big news is really the smaller countries that would never contribute contributed heavily because they were heavily infected. The total amount raised has been 8.1 billion and that has been world wide. The Gates Foundation contributed 1.6 billion and the UK contributed 2.1 billion. The US invested about 9 billion while the rest of the world invested 8.1 billion. Sounds like the rest of the world is paying it's way. Oh, and did I mention, the lions share of this money has gone to Pfizer?

Now about the reduction of Illegals. There really wasn't a change between Obama and Rump in that department except Obama deported more illegals. But as of Mar, 2020 there has been a reduction and it has nothing to do with any stupid wall. It has to do with the United States becoming an epicenter for Covid 19. So, in a way, I guess we can give Rump credit for that.

Most of what you call, "Operation Warp Speed" is set on automatic. When it's needed, it just kicks in with little or no input from any one President. Oh, the President has to sign off on it but that's it. Once it's signed off, the President is just a passenger. But, Rump did hurt the automatic system by reducing the number of personnel and even closing down one branch of it.