Zone1 OT evidence, if not proof, of original sin

[Votto]

1 Samuel 8

1When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside toward dishonest gain, accepting bribes and perverting justice.

4So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5“Look,” they said, “you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king to judge us like all the other nations.”

6But when they said, “Give us a king to judge us,” their demand was displeasing in the sight of Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD.

7And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you. For it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king. 8Just as they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking Me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9Now listen to them, but you must solemnly warn them and show them the manner of the king who will reign over them.”

Samuel’s Warning

10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11He said, “This will be the manner of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them to his own chariots and horses, to run in front of his chariots.

12He will appoint some for himself as commanders of thousands and of fifties, and others to plow his ground, to reap his harvest, to make his weapons of war, and to equip his chariots.

13And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.

14He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his servants. 15He will take a tenth of your grain and grape harvest and give it to his officials and servants. 16And he will take your menservants and maidservants and your best cattle and donkeys and put them to his own use.

17He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18When that day comes, you will beg for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.”

God Grants the Request

19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We must have a king over us. 20Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to judge us, to go out before us, and to fight our battles.”

21Samuel listened to all the words of the people and repeated them in the hearing of the LORD.

22“Listen to their voice,” the LORD said to Samuel. “Appoint a king for them.”

Then Samuel told the men of Israel, “Everyone must go back to his city.”

God lays out why corrupt men should not reign as king over his fellow man. Simply put, man will use his power for his own selfish gain, forsaking those that suffer from it.

To drive home the point, God appointed David as king after the people demanded that a human king reign over them. The Bible says that David was a man after God's own heart.

1 Samuel 13:14 “But now your kingdom shall not endure. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has appointed him ruler over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”

So, there was none better than David for the job, according to the Bible. Yet David committed two of the most egregious sins possible in his life, namely adultery with a married woman and the murder of her husband. Both sins by themselves were worthy of death in Mosaic law. Think of it, the most sinless and perfect soul God could find became a monster when he put that Lord of the Rings ring of power on his finger. There were only two more kings until the Hebrew kingdom broke apart and began to spiral the drain of destruction. Next thing the Hebrews knew, they woke up in the ovens of Nazi Germany.

But this goes back to the fall of Adam when he also put on that ring of the power of knowledge on his finger as well. It was just a latter manifestation of that sin.

For the Jew and for the secular humanist Leftist, original sin and 1 Samuel 8 presents an astounding problem. Who will be our Messiah to deliver us from the evil around us? For the Jew, they are looking for a mere mortal man once again to become their king and deliver them, which again feeds into the warnings God gave them about doing so.
Again, as 1 Samuel 8 points out, only God is qualified for that job. And for the Leftist, this means that centralized power can never lead to our collective salvation. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It will lead to our ruin as every failed regime, after failed regime, after failed regime, has proven time and time and time again. Yet mankind never connects the dots, do they?

 

[Votto]

I think the most chilling verse in 1 Samuel 8 is this

18When that day comes, you will beg for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.”

1 Samuel 8 was even used in Thomas Paines "Common Sense", which after read by the populace helped spark the American Revolution as the aim was to motivate people to overthrow the power of the King of England. Of course, that was at a time when the Bible carried some sway with the populace, as today most have never even opened a Bible.

But the warnings God gave the people in Samuel still apply today. I just wonder if God refusing to hearken to the cries of the people once they suffer under those rulers still apply.

 

[Hafar1014]

1 Samuel 8

1When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside toward dishonest gain, accepting bribes and perverting justice.

4So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5“Look,” they said, “you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king to judge us like all the other nations.”

6But when they said, “Give us a king to judge us,” their demand was displeasing in the sight of Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD.

7And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you. For it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king. 8Just as they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking Me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9Now listen to them, but you must solemnly warn them and show them the manner of the king who will reign over them.”

Samuel’s Warning

10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11He said, “This will be the manner of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them to his own chariots and horses, to run in front of his chariots.

12He will appoint some for himself as commanders of thousands and of fifties, and others to plow his ground, to reap his harvest, to make his weapons of war, and to equip his chariots.

13And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.

14He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his servants. 15He will take a tenth of your grain and grape harvest and give it to his officials and servants. 16And he will take your menservants and maidservants and your best cattle and donkeys and put them to his own use.

17He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18When that day comes, you will beg for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.”

God Grants the Request

19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We must have a king over us. 20Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to judge us, to go out before us, and to fight our battles.”

21Samuel listened to all the words of the people and repeated them in the hearing of the LORD.

22“Listen to their voice,” the LORD said to Samuel. “Appoint a king for them.”

Then Samuel told the men of Israel, “Everyone must go back to his city.”

God lays out why corrupt men should not reign as king over his fellow man. Simply put, man will use his power for his own selfish gain, forsaking those that suffer from it.

To drive home the point, God appointed David as king after the people demanded that a human king reign over them. The Bible says that David was a man after God's own heart.

1 Samuel 13:14 “But now your kingdom shall not endure. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has appointed him ruler over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”

So, there was none better than David for the job, according to the Bible. Yet David committed two of the most egregious sins possible in his life, namely adultery with a married woman and the murder of her husband. Both sins by themselves were worthy of death in Mosaic law. Think of it, the most sinless and perfect soul God could find became a monster when he put that Lord of the Rings ring of power on his finger. There were only two more kings until the Hebrew kingdom broke apart and began to spiral the drain of destruction. Next thing the Hebrews knew, they woke up in the ovens of Nazi Germany.

But this goes back to the fall of Adam when he also put on that ring of the power of knowledge on his finger as well. It was just a latter manifestation of that sin.

For the Jew and for the secular humanist Leftist, original sin and 1 Samuel 8 presents an astounding problem. Who will be our Messiah to deliver us from the evil around us? For the Jew, they are looking for a mere mortal man once again to become their king and deliver them, which again feeds into the warnings God gave them about doing so.
Again, as 1 Samuel 8 points out, only God is qualified for that job. And for the Leftist, this means that centralized power can never lead to our collective salvation. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It will lead to our ruin as every failed regime, after failed regime, after failed regime, has proven time and time and time again. Yet mankind never connects the dots, do they?

There is no original sin in Genesis. The terms is never mentioned.
It was Gods plan to teach Adam morals so he was alwys supposed to eat the fruit. You cant sin when you follow Gods plan. God tols Adam if he eats the fruit he will die. Did he die? According to the Orthodox Rabbis this was Gods test of Adams free will.
Before he ate the fruit he had no idea what a sin even was. If one cant know what sin is you cant create one.
The allegory describes the Moral teaching of man and Mans trial for freedom. Adam must choose to come to God when he had the power not to. He made the right choice and was freed from the garden which is human childhood.

The Christian distortion uses sin and the Fall of man to create fear and control. It creates a reason for Jesus. Plainly said its all BS

 

[hobelim]

There is no original sin in Genesis. The terms is never mentioned.
It was Gods plan to teach Adam morals so he was alwys supposed to eat the fruit. You cant sin when you follow Gods plan. God tols Adam if he eats the fruit he will die. Did he die? According to the Orthodox Rabbis this was Gods test of Adams free will.
Before he ate the fruit he had no idea what a sin even was. If one cant know what sin is you cant create one.
The allegory describes the Moral teaching of man and Mans trial for freedom. Adam must choose to come to God when he had the power not to. He made the right choice and was freed from the garden which is human childhood.

Thats a good take on the story. But I see things differently. I see the story of the talking serpent as a warning to Hebrew children just freed from Egyptian slavery about the dangers of losing your mind, your sanity, your soul, for life to the mesmerizing effects of a sorcerer of a cult who practices the magical arts, what is now well known as brainwashing or mind control. It is no coincidence that the Pharaoh wore a serpent on his head. It has nothing to do with original sin. It has everything to do with doing that God wills, which was not to defy his command to not eat the forbidden fruit which is the bullshit of a con artist. There are many types of serpents, many types of cons.

Simple as that.

Everyone knows how talking serpents "beguile" those who fail to stand guard over the sanctity of their own mind to control them and fleece them for life with their bullshit story about how a trinity became an edible mangod. In modern terms Jim Jones was a talking serpent, his followers were demonically possessed by him. Its the same with Trump and his brainwashed sycophants who openly degrade themselves by kissing his ass. The warning is timeless. Being banished from Eden has nothing to do with the loss of innocence, but the loss of ones sanity.

Eating the forbidden fruit was not what God wants, is not what God wills. Being beguiled it is not living at all. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

 

[Quantrill]

Votto

I don't understand by what you mean by 'original sin'. Are you just talking about it as the first sin of man? Or are you talking about it as Adam's sin passed on to all of his race?

Quantrill

 

[Zebra]

where is the proof?

 

[Votto]

Votto

I don't understand by what you mean by 'original sin'. Are you just talking about it as the first sin of man? Or are you talking about it as Adam's sin passed on to all of his race?

Quantrill

Sin that was passed down through the generations

God gave a list of all the abuses of a human king, never once suggesting that there were "sinless" people who could do the job. No, it was the exact opposite. God said he chose the best candidate for the job in king David, yet he even was not without sin at the end of the day. In fact, he committed some of the worst sine imaginable, probably because of all that power that warped his mind over the years. In fact, the movie the Lord of the Rings is about just that, as the author was a Christian.

To suggest that sin is not passed down through the generations is to suggest that it is possible to be sinless and perfect. Muslims also believe this as they project Mohammad to be just that. But that is a lie, and they continue to view their religious and political leaders much in the same way, which they are not. It is dangerous to suggest that Mohammad was perfect, especially when he converted with the sword and married a child. Sick.

The Left also does this, suggesting that their political opponents are the only ones with sin enough to cast stones at, while they are sitting pretty in the moral high seat every single time

It's just nonsense is all, and dangerous because you should never follow a sinful man blindly, for obvious reasons.

But for the Jew they have a conundrum. The OT says that the Messiah will come to deliver them and be their king and set things right. Obviously, a sinful man is incapable of this because God already told them that it was not possible.

Jesus is the only possible perfect Messiah to set things right, because he is God in the flesh. The role of King belongs to God only as only he can perform it perfectly.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

1 Samuel 8

1When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside toward dishonest gain, accepting bribes and perverting justice.

4So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5“Look,” they said, “you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways

Samuel’s Warning

10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11He said, “This will be the manner of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them to his own chariots and horses, to run in front of his chariots.

12He will appoint some for himself as commanders of thousands and of fifties, and others to plow his ground, to reap his harvest, to make his weapons of war, and to equip his chariots.

13And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and
God Grants the Request

Inherit the Wind

The inevitable result of hereditary power. The same thing happened after Charlemagne, extending the Dark Ages anarchy and the stagnant Middle Ages. Otherwise, the Renaissance would have occurred around 800 AD.

 

[Quantrill]

Sin that was passed down through the generations

God gave a list of all the abuses of a human king, never once suggesting that there were "sinless" people who could do the job. No, it was the exact opposite. God said he chose the best candidate for the job in king David, yet he even was not without sin at the end of the day. In fact, he committed some of the worst sine imaginable, probably because of all that power that warped his mind over the years. In fact, the movie the Lord of the Rings is about just that, as the author was a Christian.

To suggest that sin is not passed down through the generations is to suggest that it is possible to be sinless and perfect. Muslims also believe this as they project Mohammad to be just that. But that is a lie, and they continue to view their religious and political leaders much in the same way, which they are not. It is dangerous to suggest that Mohammad was perfect, especially when he converted with the sword and married a child. Sick.

The Left also does this, suggesting that their political opponents are the only ones with sin enough to cast stones at, while they are sitting pretty in the moral high seat every single time

It's just nonsense is all, and dangerous because you should never follow a sinful man blindly, for obvious reasons.

But for the Jew they have a conundrum. The OT says that the Messiah will come to deliver them and be their king and set things right. Obviously, a sinful man is incapable of this because God already told them that it was not possible.

Jesus is the only possible perfect Messiah to set things right, because he is God in the flesh. The role of King belongs to God only as only he can perform it perfectly.

Ok, in other words you believe a baby is born a sinner. Correct?

Quantrill

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I think the most chilling verse in 1 Samuel 8 is this

18When that day comes, you will beg for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.”

1 Samuel 8 was even used in Thomas Paines "Common Sense", which after read by the populace helped spark the American Revolution as the aim was to motivate people to overthrow the power of the King of England. Of course, that was at a time when the Bible carried some sway with the populace, as today most have never even opened a Bible.

But the warnings God gave the people in Samuel still apply today. I just wonder if God refusing to hearken to the cries of the people once they suffer under those rulers still apply.

Yours is a preppylovers' interpretation

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

There is no original sin in Genesis. The terms is never mentioned.
It was Gods plan to teach Adam morals so he was alwys supposed to eat the fruit. You cant sin when you follow Gods plan. God tols Adam if he eats the fruit he will die. Did he die? According to the Orthodox Rabbis this was Gods test of Adams free will.
Before he ate the fruit he had no idea what a sin even was. If one cant know what sin is you cant create one.
The allegory describes the Moral teaching of man and Mans trial for freedom. Adam must choose to come to God when he had the power not to. He made the right choice and was freed from the garden which is human childhood.

The Christian distortion uses sin and the Fall of man to create fear and control. It creates a reason for Jesus. Plainly said its all BS

The rabbis' interpretation is also a distortion

 

[Cougarbear]

There is no original sin in Genesis. The terms is never mentioned.
It was Gods plan to teach Adam morals so he was alwys supposed to eat the fruit. You cant sin when you follow Gods plan. God tols Adam if he eats the fruit he will die. Did he die? According to the Orthodox Rabbis this was Gods test of Adams free will.
Before he ate the fruit he had no idea what a sin even was. If one cant know what sin is you cant create one.
The allegory describes the Moral teaching of man and Mans trial for freedom. Adam must choose to come to God when he had the power not to. He made the right choice and was freed from the garden which is human childhood.

The Christian distortion uses sin and the Fall of man to create fear and control. It creates a reason for Jesus. Plainly said its all BS

What is your definition of sin and transgression? AI does a good job differentiating the two. "A sin is a general offense or a willful act against a moral or divine law, often described as "missing the mark." A transgression is a specific type of sin that involves actively stepping beyond or crossing a boundary, boundary, or limit, and is understood as a deliberate violation or a betrayal of trust. While sin can be unintentional, a transgression implies a willful disobedience to a known law or boundary." The Bible refers to Adam and Eve as transgressing the law. They had some basic knowledge that God provided them. To multiply and replenish the earth. They did not know how to accomplish this or for whatever reason, could not in their current state in the Garden of Eden. Eve wished to keep this commandment. Adam simply wished to not partake of the fruit because he was going to be obedient and not eat of the fruit regardless of not being able to have children. Eve took the first step that was necessary. But, by doing so, she had to willfully break the other commandment. How to keep one and not break the other but fulfill both. It was never supposed to be possible. But, before the foundations of the earth was laid, the Plan had been announced that all would come to the earth without being perfect except for one, Jehovah would come as Jesus Christ. That way, all would come and those that reached the ability to make sin or transgressions would have provided for them a Savior who would atone for their sins and transgressions. And, it was known by all prophets from Adam on down to Malachi. That's why Jews for thousands of years made animal sacrifices as a similitude of the only begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ, the Messiah. That's why you always had a day of atonement. It's not a distortion of Christians but an actual ordinance performed by priests of the almighty God by Israel, including Judah, and all those before Jacob. Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice and the final atonement.

 

[Votto]

Ok, in other words you believe a baby is born a sinner. Correct?

Quantrill

What I'm saying is allow the baby to develop and know right from wrong and they will choose at some point to do wrong.

And since it seems to happen 100% of the time, I feel safe saying that.

 

[Quantrill]

What I'm saying is allow the baby to develop and know right from wrong and they will choose at some point to do wrong.

And since it seems to happen 100% of the time, I feel safe saying that.

I see. I disagree. I believe the term 'original sin' speaks to Adam's sin being passed down to all his race. In other words, babies are born sinners due to Adam's sin.

Quantrill

 

[Hafar1014]

What is your definition of sin and transgression? AI does a good job differentiating the two. "A sin is a general offense or a willful act against a moral or divine law, often described as "missing the mark." A transgression is a specific type of sin that involves actively stepping beyond or crossing a boundary, boundary, or limit, and is understood as a deliberate violation or a betrayal of trust. While sin can be unintentional, a transgression implies a willful disobedience to a known law or boundary." The Bible refers to Adam and Eve as transgressing the law. They had some basic knowledge that God provided them. To multiply and replenish the earth. They did not know how to accomplish this or for whatever reason, could not in their current state in the Garden of Eden. Eve wished to keep this commandment. Adam simply wished to not partake of the fruit because he was going to be obedient and not eat of the fruit regardless of not being able to have children. Eve took the first step that was necessary. But, by doing so, she had to willfully break the other commandment. How to keep one and not break the other but fulfill both. It was never supposed to be possible. But, before the foundations of the earth was laid, the Plan had been announced that all would come to the earth without being perfect except for one, Jehovah would come as Jesus Christ. That way, all would come and those that reached the ability to make sin or transgressions would have provided for them a Savior who would atone for their sins and transgressions. And, it was known by all prophets from Adam on down to Malachi. That's why Jews for thousands of years made animal sacrifices as a similitude of the only begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ, the Messiah. That's why you always had a day of atonement. It's not a distortion of Christians but an actual ordinance performed by priests of the almighty God by Israel, including Judah, and all those before Jacob. Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice and the final atonement.

The issue is not sin its original sin which accuses mankind of being guilty because in an allegory Adam disobeyed God. Its absurd.
Jews ended animal sacrifices which has nothing to do with the issue.
Adam couldnt sin because before he ate the fruit he couldnt know what a sin was. Sin must have intent
It was Gods plan that he eat the fruit. Obeying Gods plan cant be a sin.
The Christian distortion of Genesis was designed to instill fear and obedience in people.

 

[Hafar1014]

The rabbis' interpretation is also a distortion

Funny those who wrote it and understand the language are the distorters. But the Christians who appropriated Jewish doctrine, philosophy and beliefs really know what it means.

 

[Meriweather]

The issue is not sin its original sin which accuses mankind of being guilty because in an allegory Adam disobeyed God. Its absurd.
Jews ended animal sacrifices which has nothing to do with the issue.
Adam couldnt sin because before he ate the fruit he couldnt know what a sin was. Sin must have intent
It was Gods plan that he eat the fruit. Obeying Gods plan cant be a sin.
The Christian distortion of Genesis was designed to instill fear and obedience in people.

You may not understand Christian belief, or even Jewish belief for that matter. Jewish thought is that while it was God's intention for the fruit to be eaten eventually, Adam and Eve decided to eat it before it was ready. To this day, Orthodox Jews do not eat the first fruit off a new tree in remembrance of this time.

As far as Christian (Catholic) teaching: Eating the fruit when God said not to, boiled down to a matter of trust. Instead of trusting God and not partaking of the fruit as he directed, Eve decided to trust the serpent/her own desires over those of God. The story of Adam and Eve, is the story of mankind. How often do we (that is all of mankind) put trust in what we want (and/or what others talk us into) over trust in God and His ways? That's something to contemplate when reading the story of Adam and Eve.

 

[Hafar1014]

You may not understand Christian belief, or even Jewish belief for that matter. Jewish thought is that while it was God's intention for the fruit to be eaten eventually, Adam and Eve decided to eat it before it was ready. To this day, Orthodox Jews do not eat the first fruit off a new tree in remembrance of this time.

As far as Christian (Catholic) teaching: Eating the fruit when God said not to, boiled down to a matter of trust. Instead of trusting God and not partaking of the fruit as he directed, Eve decided to trust the serpent/her own desires over those of God. The story of Adam and Eve, is the story of mankind. How often do we (that is all of mankind) put trust in what we want (and/or what others talk us into) over trust in God and His ways? That's something to contemplate when reading the story of Adam and Eve.

You dont have a clue. There is no concept before it was ready. This is laughable. Christians turned a positive allegory into a story of fear and punishment.

 

[Meriweather]

You dont have a clue. There is no concept before it was ready. This is laughable. Christians turned a positive allegory into a story of fear and punishment.

You didn't bother to read, did you. That wasn't from Christianity, but Judaism. I was pointing out various insights from various faiths regarding the Garden of Eden. Are you a Christian? Or are you insisting you of a different faith know what another faith "really" thinks?

 

[Cougarbear]

The issue is not sin its original sin which accuses mankind of being guilty because in an allegory Adam disobeyed God. Its absurd.
Jews ended animal sacrifices which has nothing to do with the issue.
Adam couldnt sin because before he ate the fruit he couldnt know what a sin was. Sin must have intent
It was Gods plan that he eat the fruit. Obeying Gods plan cant be a sin.
The Christian distortion of Genesis was designed to instill fear and obedience in people.

The boundaries were set. Don’t eat that specific fruit. Don’t. That’s a command. He disobeyed. From this, their children also disobeyed. Many to the point of being a living place for a killer like Cain. Adam and Eve went from a peaceful perfect eternal existence to being subject to the lone and dreary world never to return if left there. But Father in Heaven provided a way back. Total forgiveness and the disobedience completely 100% washed away and no longer remembered by the Godhead. He promised to provide Adam and Eve and their families for generations to generations a Savior to atone for their sins if they repent, be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. To prepare mankind for this event, he provided the animal sacrifice being the first born without blemish. He also provided a way to take your DNA and reconstruct (or clone) your body, placing your spirit into it once more in a way that you will be eternal forever never to die again.
There will be blessings at different levels based on what you do during your life with what you are given. The atonement and your basic spirit will take you the rest of the way to exaltation down to working somewhere in heaven. Some won’t make it to heaven. Those are those who commit the unpardonable sin, denying the Holy Ghost.