Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...

I. LOVE. SCIENCE. It does not have to be one or the other, silly.
welllll....except it does. The theists demonstrates, repeatedly, that if a thing claimed by faith is contrary to science, he will choose faith. Peter LaRufa rather summed it up nicely:

If somewhere in the Bible, I were to find a passage said 2 + 2 = 5 then I wouldn't question what I'm reading. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it.

When a theist can say that with a straight face, then faith cannot be reconciled with reason.
Of course faith can be reconciled with reason.

Faith means to have complete trust in something. I never put my complete trust is something that doesn't make sense or is unreliable.

The Heavens may declare the glory.... but you have to study them to discover it. We were never meant to NOT look for ourselves.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.
 
But the stories PREDATE Abrahamic religions.
The flood was long before Abraham.
So was the story just passed down?
No, they found thumb drives documenting what occurred.
Probably just as likely as the flood happening to begin with
Too much evidence to ignore.
How many millions of years did it take for the layers shown to form do you think?
View attachment 169203
About a week.

These rocks were not deposited in slow layers over millions of years. An abrupt event occurred.
sh4-jpg.116924


How many millions of years for this canyon to form?
View attachment 169204
View attachment 169205

About a year.
Interesting stuff. I can believe the canyons were cut by the eruptions melting show but the layers seem old. What was the source?
 
The flood was long before Abraham.
So was the story just passed down?
No, they found thumb drives documenting what occurred.
Probably just as likely as the flood happening to begin with
Too much evidence to ignore.
How many millions of years did it take for the layers shown to form do you think?
View attachment 169203
About a week.

These rocks were not deposited in slow layers over millions of years. An abrupt event occurred.
sh4-jpg.116924


How many millions of years for this canyon to form?
View attachment 169204
View attachment 169205

About a year.
Interesting stuff. I can believe the canyons were cut by the eruptions melting show but the layers seem old. What was the source?
I have been there myself.

mount st helens eruption ash layering - Bing images
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.


The tribal storytellers I am referring to do not embellish at all. They speak the story word for word as they are taught it. In fact, they cannot start in the middle. They can only repeat it from beginning to end.
 
Every biologist is not an evolutionist
Yes they are, when they are being biologists. Every single one of them. It is the foundation of all of biology. Where do you get this nonsense?

The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology, and others. One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) ... give credence to creation-science". A 1991 Gallup poll found that about 5% of American scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists.

Additionally, the scientific community considers intelligent design, a neo-creationist offshoot, to be unscientific, pseudoscience, or junk science. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own. In September 2005, 38 Nobel laureates issued a statement saying "Intelligent design is fundamentally unscientific; it cannot be tested as scientific theory because its central conclusion is based on belief in the intervention of a supernatural agent."In October 2005, a coalition representing more than 70,000 Australian scientists and science teachers issued a statement saying "intelligent design is not science" and calling on "all schools not to teach Intelligent Design (ID) as science, because it fails to qualify on every count as a scientific theory".

In 1986, an amicus curiae brief, signed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners, 17 state academies of science and 7 other scientific societies, asked the US Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard, to reject a Louisiana state law requiring that where evolutionary science was taught in public schools, creation science must also be taught. The brief also stated that the term "creation science" as used that law embodied religious dogma, and that "teaching religious ideas mislabeled as science is detrimental to scientific education".

This was the largest collection of Nobel Prize winners to sign anything up to that point. According to anthropologists Almquist and Cronin, the brief is the "clearest statement by scientists in support of evolution yet produced."

There are many scientific and scholarly organizations from around the world that have issued statements in support of the theory of evolution. The American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society with more than 130,000 members and over 262 affiliated societies and academies of science including over 10 million individuals, has made several statements and issued several press releases in support of evolution. The prestigious United States National Academy of Sciences, which provides science advice to the nation, has published several books supporting evolution and criticising creationism and intelligent design.

There is a notable difference between the opinion of scientists and that of the general public in the United States. A 2009 poll by Pew Research Centerfound that "Nearly all scientists (97%) say humans and other living things have evolved over time – 87% say evolution is due to natural processes, such as natural selection. The dominant position among scientists – that living things have evolved due to natural processes – is shared by only about a third (32%) of the public."

It must be understood that even 97% is not 100%. And it would seem that 13% take issue with evolution as solely a natural process.
It must be entirely understood that students, as well as, faculty members are under extreme intimidating pressure to fully adhere with the polities and accepted determinations within the science departments or face loss of employment, loss of scholarships, withholding of diplomas, and being ostracized by those controlling scientific academia in notable school and governmental sponsored research.

It is far easier to seem to fully agree than to fight the powers that be. And with higher education tuition pushing 6 figures, there is much at stake. Rome threw the Christian "atheists" to the lions. The educated elite simply can destroy an individual's career opportunities due entirely by politics and having nothing to do with someone's actual abilities or intellectual brilliance. Students by large are at a disadvantage, and so are those who might consider helping.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.


The tribal storytellers I am referring to do not embellish at all. They speak the story word for word as they are taught it. In fact, they cannot start in the middle. They can only repeat it from beginning to end.

Have you ever been in a play and tried to memorize lines? I have. It isn't easy. In fact, word for word memorization isn't done very much today because most people are unable to recite stories or lines of Poetry word for word without making mistakes. Example: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary over many a quaint and curious legend of forgotten lore. While I nodded nearly napping sudden there came a tapping, as of someone gently rapping --- rapping at my chamber door.... The poem goes on and on. I once memorized it. It's fun but is isn't easy.
 
Actually, I was honestly responding to him. The one trolling would be the dickwad who just wants to attack the person engaging in discussion. that would be you. Do feel free to fuck off with your bullshit.
And I was honestly responding to your response. See how that works?

Do I need to pull up your old posts where you admit that you seek out believers to ridicule for your own pleasure?
My motives for posting is irrelevant. If my facts are incorrect, you should have no problem refuting them. However, since you clearly have no way of doing that, you have chosen, instead, to attempt to cast doubt on those facts, by attacking my character.

Do better...
Your motive of subordinating religion is 100% relevant.

I don't find it surprising that a person practicing subversive behavior under the cover of deceit (i.e. motives aren't important) would take offense at the person pulling the curtain back.

It was entirely predictable.
I'm not offended. I am amused at your need to resort to personal attack, because your reason, again, fails you.
If you weren't offended then you wouldn't have seen this as a personal attack. Which is what YOU called it.

BTW, it wasn't a personal attack. I don't know how to say you seek to subordinate religion any nicer than that.
LOL! Why would I be offended by such feebleness. You get that I am laughing at you, and mocking you, right? Although I suppose I should be congratulating you, as you have succeeded. Instead of discussing the actual context of my posts, here we are talking about your irrational deflection. You got what you wanted. You got to not expose the fact that you have no rational, reasonable response to my arguments. congratulations. Lemme know when you wanna circle back around, and discuss the actual topic of this discussion. Until then, I see no point in wasting further efforts on your irrational deflections.
 
I. LOVE. SCIENCE. It does not have to be one or the other, silly.
welllll....except it does. The theists demonstrates, repeatedly, that if a thing claimed by faith is contrary to science, he will choose faith. Peter LaRufa rather summed it up nicely:

If somewhere in the Bible, I were to find a passage said 2 + 2 = 5 then I wouldn't question what I'm reading. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it.

When a theist can say that with a straight face, then faith cannot be reconciled with reason.
Of course faith can be reconciled with reason.

Faith means to have complete trust in something. I never put my complete trust is something that doesn't make sense or is unreliable.

The Heavens may declare the glory.... but you have to study them to discover it. We were never meant to NOT look for ourselves.
Reason is not about "Does this make sense to me," Reason is about, "Can this be supported by objective evidence," Any manner of silliness can be rationalised to "make sense" - just look at David Karesh. What you are describing isn't reason, it is justification. You are right; you can justify your beliefs all day long. That does not make them rational, or reasonable.

Reason is the enemy of faith, because faith demands belief in the absence of objective evidence; that is the wilful rejection of reason.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.

The difference is that no one believes the story of the Three Little Pigs ever actually happened in history. Yet, they insist that all of the silliness in the Bible did.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.


Dear ScienceRocks
Since you and I are Secular Gentiles under Natural Laws,
those parts of the Bible are not necessary for us.

We are still governed under Laws of JUSTICE which the Bible symbolizes
using religious icons we don't need to describe JUSTICE and PEACE in secular terms.

Please see below summary of the meaning of the Bible in
250 words that doesn't require faith in any personalized God or Jesus.
Just faith in truth, justice and peace to motivate humanity by conscience.

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

That is the PATH of secular gentiles like Jefferson and many Muslims, Mormons and Catholics
which Baptists do not consider to be Christians under scriptural authority.

There is NOTHING WRONG with following the NATURAL LAWS
which are equally governed by JUSTICE (which Jesus represents)

JUSTICE by any other name still means the same,
whether you call that Jesus or not. The concept is the same
and this is universal for all humanity. We all believe and want JUSTICE to include and protect us EQUALLY.

=========

To explain the story of humanity summarized in the Bible, it helps to distinguish the difference between the Old and New Testaments, which determines if the rest will make sense at all, or even needs to be read.

In short, the Old Testament records the tragic history of living by the "letter of the law" and retributive justice, causing death and genocidal destruction by greed, while the New Testament paints a positive future for humanity, with renewed love of life and relationships by restorative justice, living by the "spirit of the law" for lasting peace.

The key difference between these paths is divine forgiveness, which breaks the cycle of retribution inherited from previous generations. Without forgiveness, suffering repeats, projected forward. However, by receiving forgiveness and correction, where Jesus represents the spiritual process of embracing equal justice, humanity finds liberation from past strife by establishing universal truth, justice, and peace on earth. Thus, human nature is destined to reach maturity in mind, body, and spirit, collectively symbolized by the Holy Trinity.

Salvation in Jesus represents restorative justice with mercy, bringing healing grace to end conflicts. Reconciling local laws among individuals with universal laws on a global scale fulfills both in perfect harmony or marriage between people, as the bride or church, united with the authority of law or state.

The story of sacrifice and redemption represents the spiritual process each individual experiences to grow in life -- through trials, failures, and recovery -- which drives humanity to reach spiritual understanding, wholeness, and peace.



If you want it even shorter then just use the Great Commandments and New Commandment:

1. Love God with all your heart mind and soul
2. Love your neighbor as yourself
3. Love one another as Christ Jesus loves us
ie rejoining the laws of man/nature with the laws of God/collective truth
and the love of man/humanity with the love of God/life
through connection by Conscience or Christ Jesus to Restore Justice by
establishing Truth for lasting Peace.

Short enough? the rest is commentary and process of reconciling issues with each other.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.

The difference is that no one believes the story of the Three Little Pigs ever actually happened in history. Yet, they insist that all of the silliness in the Bible did.


Dear Czernobog
No, the difference is that the figurative stories and figures
in the Bible don't have to be historically real, but can be totally
fictionalized and mythical, and the MESSAGE is still the same:

The STORY in the Bible is the story of humanity's struggle
and process of growing from immature stages of "retributive justice"
and living by the letter of the law corrupted by greed and material selfishness
to the mature stages of "restorative justice" and living by the spirit of the laws
including love of truth, justice and peace for all humanity included in harmony.

This story and process exists and occurs
REGARDLESS if the symbolism in the Bible is real or totally made up.

Can you argue with that interpretation?

Have you ever met a human being who didn't fight
or want justice for themselves, in order to have security and peace?

That's natural laws that govern all humanity.

The Bible represents the PROCESS of coming
to terms and PEACE with the laws, based on
establishing truth, in seeking to secure justice and peace.

That's basically what the "trinity" symbolizes in
"baptizing all nations in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit"

that means to establish good faith relations in the spirit or
for the sake or name of Truth, Justice and Peace.
Universal values and principles that drive all humans
by CONSCIENCE.

What you seem to battle with Czernobog is there
are TWO PATHS that work in parallel: the path of the
Secular Gentiles under Natural Laws and the
churched believers under Scriptural Laws and Authority.

the spirit of JUSTICE (which Jesus represents)
governs both paths like separate "folds of the one flock"
as Jesus referred to in Scripture.

Czernobog these are like the Treble clef and the Bass clef
both needed to make music that harmonizes together.
We need both to play their respective parts in tune,
in harmony, and right timing in order to complement each other.

So faith and reason, church and state, go HAND in HAND.
We are supposed to check and balance each other
and agree in TRUTH, not conflict or compete to exclude the other.

That's what's wrong, is exploiting conflict to divide and destroy.
We are supposed to be RESOLVING conflicts in order to
maximize and include the benefits of both and use them where best suited
for that purpose.
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.


The tribal storytellers I am referring to do not embellish at all. They speak the story word for word as they are taught it. In fact, they cannot start in the middle. They can only repeat it from beginning to end.

Have you ever been in a play and tried to memorize lines? I have. It isn't easy. In fact, word for word memorization isn't done very much today because most people are unable to recite stories or lines of Poetry word for word without making mistakes. Example: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary over many a quaint and curious legend of forgotten lore. While I nodded nearly napping sudden there came a tapping, as of someone gently rapping --- rapping at my chamber door.... The poem goes on and on. I once memorized it. It's fun but is isn't easy.


Mainly because we don't have to memorize things. We write them down or store them electronically.

The tribal story tellers repeat the stories over and over, and are told the stories over and over and over and over.
 
Reason is not about "Does this make sense to me," Reason is about, "Can this be supported by objective evidence," Any manner of silliness can be rationalised to "make sense" - just look at David Karesh. What you are describing isn't reason, it is justification. You are right; you can justify your beliefs all day long. That does not make them rational, or reasonable.

Reason is the enemy of faith, because faith demands belief in the absence of objective evidence; that is the wilful rejection of reason.

Czernobog
1. No, because when someone falsely justifies something, then reason can point out the contradiction and correct it.
So false faith does NOT stand up to reason.

And reason is thus a FRIEND to TRUE faith by removing false contradictory obstructions to what
people truly believe that should be free of any such inconsistencies.

2. regarding relativity, and "what makes sense to people"
there is a second layer on top of what is true, and that is how we communicate or present it
(and a third layer is how we PERCEIVE that way of communicating it)

So even if there is absolute truth that science can prove,
personally proving that is valid to someone OFTEN depends on their personal language perspective or experience that IS relative to them
and not absolutely the same for all people where science can provide one way of explaining this.

For example, Czernobog
let's take the concept of forgiveness being taught in Christianity
a. a Christian may just need to hear this expressed and taught according
to the Bible that says if we don't forgive others, then we are not forgiven.
That may be ENOUGH to explain this to a Christian who hears it that way "and it makes sense to them"
b. I've met ATHEISTS who taught it and explained it this way
If you keep inventory on everything you do, you will lose your sanity,
much more if you try to keep track of what your neighbor does.
But if you forgive and free your mind, you can make the most of
life and situations regardless what happens. So forgiveness
is essential to sanity and mental health, or you can't function as well.
c. I've read successful therapists teach people the need to forgive
in terms of saving their own mental health from destructive pain of unforgiveness
that only causes more damage to themselves. There are books and medical studies I recommend to others which cite the key factor of forgiveness in healing and in facilitating recovery times for people overcoming both mental and physical ills.
d. My Buddhist mother finally understood this concept when a Buddhist Monk explained it
as treating all people with equal wisdom and compassion as the Buddha would practice,
REGARDLESS how that other person behaves or treats you, good or bad, you still
do the right thing
e. also Czernobog since you prefer SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE
studies have shown that faith in forgiveness correlates with BETTER HEALTH
and FASTER RECOVERY than people reporting unforgiveness and resentment,
where unforgiveness has been shown to correlate with 86% of ill conditions in people

So even though SCIENCE can DEMONSTRATE a correlation between
* better mental and physical health correlating with FORGIVENESS
* worse mental or physical healing correlating with UNFORGIVENESS

I've found from experience that each person comes to accept this understanding
"depending on what makes sense to them"

In this case:
THE TRUTH IS ABSOLUTE AND UNIVERSAL AND APPLIES TO ALL HUMAN HEALTH
but the understanding and COMMUNICATION requires individual and RELATIVE REASONING
 
Noah's Ark is Plagiarized. Here's how we know ...



The entire freaking thing was pieced together by abunch of other fairy tails thousands of years before.

That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.


Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.

good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.

The difference is that no one believes the story of the Three Little Pigs ever actually happened in history. Yet, they insist that all of the silliness in the Bible did.


Yeah, I know. They, whoever they are, and they are out there in numbers, are bent on creating the world according to their perverse beliefs about reality and right and wrong criminalizing some and rewarding others through laws and customs having confused fairy tales and fables for historical records.

The lunatics are taking over the asylum. On this we agree.

Still, like the three pigs, in scripture the moral of the story is not directly connected to the literal meanings of the words used and conveys a hidden teaching that extirpates their false claim to moral authority.

As a rational person you should be well equipped to discern that teaching. Thats why I find it astonishing that you haven't seemed to bother to look beyond the fact that scientific discoveries have only refuted what the stories are not about.

Is that really the best that you can do?

Master that hidden teaching and then you can pay them back in their own coin and beat them down with the very word of God anytime they rear their ugly heads.. its a gas!

If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.
 
Last edited:
Reason is not about "Does this make sense to me," Reason is about, "Can this be supported by objective evidence," Any manner of silliness can be rationalised to "make sense" - just look at David Karesh. What you are describing isn't reason, it is justification. You are right; you can justify your beliefs all day long. That does not make them rational, or reasonable.

Reason is the enemy of faith, because faith demands belief in the absence of objective evidence; that is the wilful rejection of reason.

Czernobog
1. No, because when someone falsely justifies something, then reason can point out the contradiction and correct it.
So false faith does NOT stand up to reason.

And reason is thus a FRIEND to TRUE faith by removing false contradictory obstructions to what
people truly believe that should be free of any such inconsistencies.
That would only be true, if one were allowing reason, and objective evidence to inform their beliefs. Remind me, again. What is the objective evidence that demonstrates the existence of deity/Creator?

2. regarding relativity, and "what makes sense to people"
there is a second layer on top of what is true, and that is how we communicate or present it
(and a third layer is how we PERCEIVE that way of communicating it)

So even if there is absolute truth that science can prove,
personally proving that is valid to someone OFTEN depends on their personal language perspective or experience that IS relative to them
and not absolutely the same for all people where science can provide one way of explaining this.
Sorry, but that's absurd. When I drop a ball of the roof of a building, I don't need you to perceive that it is going to fall. You either accept the fact that it will, and get out of the way, or you don't, and get hit in the head. Because gravity doesn't need your consent to function.

For example, Czernobog
let's take the concept of forgiveness being taught in Christianity
a. a Christian may just need to hear this expressed and taught according
to the Bible that says if we don't forgive others, then we are not forgiven.
That may be ENOUGH to explain this to a Christian who hears it that way "and it makes sense to them"
b. I've met ATHEISTS who taught it and explained it this way
If you keep inventory on everything you do, you will lose your sanity,
much more if you try to keep track of what your neighbor does.
But if you forgive and free your mind, you can make the most of
life and situations regardless what happens. So forgiveness
is essential to sanity and mental health, or you can't function as well.
c. I've read successful therapists teach people the need to forgive
in terms of saving their own mental health from destructive pain of unforgiveness
that only causes more damage to themselves. There are books and medical studies I recommend to others which cite the key factor of forgiveness in healing and in facilitating recovery times for people overcoming both mental and physical ills.
d. My Buddhist mother finally understood this concept when a Buddhist Monk explained it
as treating all people with equal wisdom and compassion as the Buddha would practice,
REGARDLESS how that other person behaves or treats you, good or bad, you still
do the right thing
e. also Czernobog since you prefer SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE
studies have shown that faith in forgiveness correlates with BETTER HEALTH
and FASTER RECOVERY than people reporting unforgiveness and resentment,
where unforgiveness has been shown to correlate with 86% of ill conditions in people

So even though SCIENCE can DEMONSTRATE a correlation between
* better mental and physical health correlating with FORGIVENESS
* worse mental or physical healing correlating with UNFORGIVENESS

I've found from experience that each person comes to accept this understanding
"depending on what makes sense to them"

In this case:
THE TRUTH IS ABSOLUTE AND UNIVERSAL AND APPLIES TO ALL HUMAN HEALTH
but the understanding and COMMUNICATION requires individual and RELATIVE REASONING
I have no idea what this has to do with your insistence that faith is compatible with reason.
 
Ummmm.... no. Reason is the friend of faith. One can clearly see objective truth by dying to self.
Not only does that not make sense, your latter statement has nothing to do with reason.
It doesn't make sense to you because you are so full of yourself. You aren't reasonable.
 
That's not how it works.

These primitives passed down the incident orally. Things were lost, and facts were changed.

Your Creator spoke to Moses face to face.

That's why it's called revelation.

Actually, there are oral traditions that are surprisingly accurate. In our modern world there are examples of tribes that passed down their history orally, since they had no written language. While it seems like a long game of "telephone", it was not. The story tellers would start when they were children, memorizing the story. The version told by the father would be word for word what the son told. The could not start in the middle or answer much in the way of questions about what they memorized, but they could tell and retell the story with amazing accuracy.

Not that this means the stories about gods were true.
good point.

Im sure many people could retell the story of the three little pigs with amazing accuracy and even if they embellished the story it wouldn't change the teaching or moral of the story at all..as long as they understood it.

The tribal storytellers I am referring to do not embellish at all. They speak the story word for word as they are taught it. In fact, they cannot start in the middle. They can only repeat it from beginning to end.
Have you ever been in a play and tried to memorize lines? I have. It isn't easy. In fact, word for word memorization isn't done very much today because most people are unable to recite stories or lines of Poetry word for word without making mistakes. Example: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary over many a quaint and curious legend of forgotten lore. While I nodded nearly napping sudden there came a tapping, as of someone gently rapping --- rapping at my chamber door.... The poem goes on and on. I once memorized it. It's fun but is isn't easy.

Mainly because we don't have to memorize things. We write them down or store them electronically.

The tribal story tellers repeat the stories over and over, and are told the stories over and over and over and over.
And there was no outside influences, no such thing as dementia or anything that wigh bring about slight and progressive changes to the way one tells a story. If you believe in evolution for what you term obvious reasons, why would you imagine that from generation to generation the names, times, dates and order of events that people were attempting to remember were not affected? This is why I find it preposterous to discredit the Biblical account and yet suggest that the Aborigines of Australia and the Chinese have historical accounts that prove that they've been around for 100's of thousands of years, when I can see them as distorted corruptions of family traditions that exist in an attempt to support the legitimacy of their own tribal bloodline.
 
Chapter 14
Can Creationists Be “Real” Scientists?
by Dr. Jason Lisle on May 13, 2010
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Some evolutionists have stated that creationists cannot be real scientists. Several years ago, the National Academy of Sciences published a guidebook entitled Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science. This guidebook states that biological evolution is “the most important concept in modern biology, a concept essential to understanding key aspects of living things.” Famous geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky stated that “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.”

But is a belief in particles-to-people evolution really necessary to understand biology and other sciences? Is it even helpful? Have any technological advances been made because of a belief in evolution?

Although evolutionists interpret the evidence in light of their belief in evolution, science works perfectly well without any connection to evolution. Think about it this way: is a belief in molecules-to-man evolution necessary to understand how planets orbit the sun, how telescopes operate, or how plants and animals function? Has any biological or medical research benefited from a belief in evolution? Not at all. In fact, the PhD cell biologist (and creationist) Dr. David Menton has stated, “The fact is that though widely believed, evolution contributes nothing to our understanding of empirical science and thus plays no essential role in biomedical research or education.” And creationists are not the only ones who understand this. Dr. Philip Skell, Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor of Chemistry, Penn State University, wrote:

I recently asked more than 70 eminent researchers if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin’s theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No.

I also examined the outstanding biodiscoveries of the past century: the discovery of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; the development of new surgeries; and others. I even queried biologists working in areas where one would expect the Darwinian paradigm to have most benefited research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I found that Darwin’s theory had provided no discernible guidance, but was brought in, after the breakthroughs, as an interesting narrative gloss. . . . From my conversations with leading researchers it had became [sic] clear that modern experimental biology gains its strength from the availability of new instruments and methodologies, not from an immersion in historical biology.

The rise of technology is not due to a belief in evolution, either. Computers, cellular phones, and DVD players all operate based on the laws of physics, which God created. It is because God created a logical, orderly universe and gave us the ability to reason and to be creative that technology is possible. How can a belief in evolution (that complex biological machines do not require an intelligent designer) aid in the development of complex machines, which are clearly intelligently designed? Technology has shown us that sophisticated machines require intelligent designers—not random chance. Science and technology are perfectly consistent with the Bible, but not with evolution.

Differing Assumptions
The main difference between scientists who are creationists and those who are evolutionists is their starting assumptions. Creationists and evolutionists have a different view of history, but the way they do science in the present is the same. Both creationists and evolutionists use observation and experimentation to draw conclusions about nature. This is the nature of observational science. It involves repeatable experimentation and observations in the present. Since observational scientific theories are capable of being tested in the present, creationists and evolutionists are generally in agreement on these models. They agree on the nature of gravity, the composition of stars, the speed of light in a vacuum, the size of the solar system, the principles of electricity, etc. These things can be checked and tested in the present.

HISTORICAL EVENTS CANNOT BE CHECKED SCIENTIFICALLY IN THE PRESENT.
But historical events cannot be checked scientifically in the present. This is because we do not have access to the past; it is gone. All that we have is the circumstantial evidence (relics) of past events. Although we can make educated guesses about the past and can make inferences from things like fossils and rocks, we cannot directly test our conclusions because we cannot repeat the past. Furthermore, since creationists and evolutionists have very different views of history, it is not surprising that they reconstruct past events very differently. We all have the same evidence; but in order to draw conclusions about what the evidence means, we use our worldview—our most basic beliefs about the nature of reality. Since they have different starting assumptions, creationists and evolutionists interpret the same evidence to mean very different things.

Ultimately, biblical creationists accept the recorded history of the Bible as their starting point. Evolutionists reject recorded history, and have effectively made up their own pseudo-history, which they use as a starting point for interpreting evidence. Both are using their beliefs about the past to interpret the evidence in the present. When we look at the scientific evidence today, we find that it is very consistent with biblical history and not as consistent with millions of years of evolution. We’ve seen in this book that the scientific evidence is consistent with biblical creation. We’ve seen that the geological evidence is consistent with a global Flood—not millions of years of gradual deposition. We’ve seen that the changes in DNA are consistent with the loss of information we would expect as a result of the Curse described in Genesis 3, not the hypothetical gain of massive quantities of genetic information required by molecules-toman evolution. Real science confirms the Bible.

Real Scientists
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Sir Isaac Newton

It shouldn’t be surprising that there have been many realscientists who believed in biblical creation. Consider Isaac Newton (1642–1727), who codiscovered calculus, formulated the laws of motion and gravity, computed the nature of planetary orbits, invented the reflecting telescope, and made a number of discoveries in optics. Newton had profound knowledge of, and faith in, the Bible. Carl Linnaeus (1707–1778), the Swedish botanist who developed the double-Latin-name system for taxonomic classification of plants and animals, also believed the Genesis creation account. So also did the Dutch geologist Nicolaus Steno (1638–1686), who developed the basic principles of stratigraphy.

Even in the early 19th century when the idea of millions of years was developed, there were prominent Bible-believing English scientists, such as chemists Andrew Ure (1778–1857) and John Murray (1786?–1851), entomologist William Kirby (1759–1850), and geologist George Young (1777–1848). James Clerk Maxwell (1831–1879) discovered the four fundamental equations that light and all forms of electromagnetic radiation obey. Indeed, Maxwell’s equations are what make radio transmissions possible. He was a deep student of Scripture and was firmly opposed to evolution. These and many other great scientists have believed the Bible as the infallible Word of God, and it was their Christian faith that was the driving motivation and intellectual foundation of their excellent scientific work.

bible-believers-scientists.gif

Today there are many other PhD scientists who reject evolution and believe that God created in six days, a few thousand years ago, just as recorded in Scripture. Russ Humphreys, a PhD physicist, has developed (among many other things) a model to compute the present strength of planetary magnetic fields,5 which enabled him to accurately predict the field strengths of the outer planets. Did a belief in the Bible hinder his research? Not at all. On the contrary, Dr. Humphreys was able to make these predictions precisely because he started from the principles of Scripture. John Baumgardner, a PhD geophysicist and biblical creationist, has a sophisticated computer model of catastrophic plate tectonics, which was reported in the journal Nature; the assumptions for this model are based on the global flood recorded in Genesis. Additionally, think of all the people who have benefited from a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan. The MRI scanner was developed by the creationist Dr. Raymond Damadian.6

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Dr. John Baumgardner

Consider the biblical creationists Georgia Purdom and Andrew Snelling (both authors in this book), who work in molecular genetics and geology, respectively. They certainly understand their fields, and yet are convinced that they do not support evolutionary biology and geology. On the contrary, they confirm biblical creation.

I have a PhD from a secular university and have done extensive research in solar astrophysics. In my PhD research, I made a number of discoveries about the nature of near-surface solar flows, including the detection of a never-before-seen polar alignment of supergranules, as well as patterns indicative of giant overturning cells. Was I hindered in my research by the conviction that the early chapters of Genesis are literally true? No, it’s just the reverse. It is because a logical God created and ordered the universe that I, and other creationists, expect to be able to understand aspects of that universe through logic, careful observation, and experimentation.

Clearly, creationists can indeed be real scientists. And this shouldn’t be surprising since the very basis for scientific research is biblical creation. This is not to say that noncreationists cannot be scientists. But, in a way, an evolutionist is being inconsistent when he or she does science. The big-bang supporter claims the universe is a random chance event, and yet he or she studies it as if it were logical and orderly. The evolutionist is thus forced to borrow certain creationist principles in order to do science. The universe is logical and orderly because its Creator is logical and has imposed order on the universe. God created our minds and gave us the ability and curiosity to study the universe. Furthermore, we can trust that the universe will obey the same physics tomorrow as it does today because God is consistent. This is why science is possible. On the other hand, if the universe is just an accidental product of a big bang, why should it be orderly? Why should there be laws of nature if there is no lawgiver? If our brains are the by-products of random chance, why should we trust that their conclusions are accurate? But if our minds have been designed, and if the universe has been constructed by God, as the Bible teaches, then of course we should be able to study nature. Science is possible because the Bible is true.
 

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