No freedom of expression in Gaza

[sealadaigh]

Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas closed the offices of three media companies, including the Saudi-owned Al Arabiya television and Palestinian news agency Maan, on Thursday, employees and a Hamas spokesman said.

Hamas Attorney General Ismail Jaber told The Associated Press Thursday that he closed the Gaza Strip bureaus of satellite channel Al Arabiya and West Bank-based outlet Maan because they "spread fabricated rumors" that "harm the Palestinian national interest and resistance movements."

Al Arabiya and Maan employees said Hamas security men had arrived at their offices with an order from the attorney general to shut down immediately and a Hamas spokesman said the step was temporary, until an investigation was concluded.

"The attorney general received complaints, including from the Ministry of Information, that Al Arabiya and Maan reported false news, fabrications and lies," said Hamas government spokesman Ehab al-Ghsain.

Ghsain did not single out any news reports, but Hamas officials have in the past few days criticised coverage by Al Arabiya and Maan of the Islamist group's tense relations with Egypt's new rulers as "damaging" to the Palestinian people.

Hamas closes 2 media offices in Gaza for criticism - Israel News, Ynetnews

----------

I've got news for you. There is no freedom of expression anywhere in Asia save Israel who'se mind-set was formed in Europe when it was established. Israel is a Western Outpost surrounded in an undeveoped region called the third world.
Western Values here are seen as obscene. Get used to it. The only hope to change these values is to support Democracies which foster self expression.

and this is somehow a selling point?

perhaps western values are seen as obscene, in part, because western powers and corporations have very unfortunately acted out of an obscene self interest in that part of the world.

it would be hard not to be a third world country when the labour forces in these countries has been exploited, and often to the detriment of our own labour force.

what kind of self expression do you expect from a 12 y.o. who works ten hour or more days in a sweatshop.

 

[Coyote]

I was listening to an interesting bit of news on the radio - they were talking about the Press Freesom Index, compiled by Reporters Without Borders - on media freedom in various countries. Press Freedom Index 2013 - Reporters Without Borders

The results are really surprising...

Out of 179 - Israel ranks 112th and Palestine ranks 146th - not so surprising for Palestine at this time, but very surprising that Israel also ranks so low.

For comparison - in the ME: Qatar ranks 110, Kuwait is 77 - at the bottom Pakistan 159, Saudi 163, Iran 174 and Syria 176 (no surprise with those).

I found it intriguing that Kuwait ranks so much better than Israel in freedom of expression and while Palestine is worse, Israel is not so hot, being in the bottom 50%.

Which begs the question, of how exactly the tanking goes.

Israel doesn't let journalists enter many places, out of censorship etc. That is true.

But concerning inside freedom of expression, Israel is ridiculously allowing that WAY over the top.

Depends on what you mean, I guess. do you mean "freedom of press" when journalists from other countries come and criticize or when Inside press (like leftist journalism) can criticize a (rightist) government?

Two ways of freedom of expression, depends on how you look at it.

I agree - it is complex, but I found the ranking surprising and intriguing - for example Kuwait ranking so high totally surprised me out of my assumptions.

For 2011-12 Israel ranked 92 and Kuwait 78
2010 Israel ranked 86 and Kuwait 87, Palistine (Israel extraterritorial) 131
2009 Israel ranked 92, Kuwait 78, Palestine (Israel extraterritorial) 133

There is a consistency in the rankings.

Here is what they have to say about

Israel: Israel - Reporters Without Borders

Kuwait Kuwait - Reporters Without Borders

Palestine Palestine - Reporters Without Borders

I throw in Kuwait because it's an interesting difference from it's Middle Eastern neighbors who cluster closer to the bottom

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).

MJB12741, et al,

Controlling the media in the embryonic stages of a totalitarian state is critical.


(COMMENT)

This is in keeping with their program that essentially states that it is necessary that information and media people, should take part in the operation of awakening the masses. If the media outlets were casting shadow on Hamas, Hamas must then neutralize them. It is what the Palestinian People wanted in their government and voted for as a people.

Most Respectfully,
R

Not necessarily.

From what I read, Hamas was voted into power because they were seen as less corrupt than the entrenched status quo - on the basis of domestic issues not international issues and not because of some perceived desire for totalitarian rule.

(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

Lets look at the facts.

According to Wikipedia, the election was close:
Of the Electoral Lists, Hamas received 44.45% and Fatah 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.[1]

Palestinian Public Opinion Polls - 2006 exit polls: Survey Research Unit

Survey Research Unit

(5) The Peace Process and Electoral Behavior

Findings also show that 69% of those who place the peace process at the top of their priorities voted for Fateh while only 19% voted for Hamas. But findings show that only 9% placed the peace process at the top of the list of priorities which, needless to say, explains the devastating blow Fateh received on election day.

...Palestinian vote for Hamas on the day of elections should not however be interpreted as a vote against the peace process. About 60% of all voters identified themselves as supporters of the peace process while only 17% saw themselves as opposed to it and 23% saw themselves somewhere in the middle between opposition and support. Moreover, the vote does not mean that all those who voted for Hamas are opposed to the peace process. To the contrary, findings show that 40% of Hamas voters in fact support the peace process and only 30% oppose it. Moreover, abut one third of Hamas voters support collection of arms, the implementation of the Road Map, and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state in a two-state context. Findings clearly show that a majority of Fateh and the combined voters of other lists support all there elements of the peace process (see table below).​

And, from the same link:

(6) Corruption and Lawlessness and Electoral Behavior

Findings clearly show that what damaged Fateh’s electoral chances was the decision by a large percentage of voters (25%) to make the ability of the list or faction to fight corruption the most important consideration when voting for the various lists. What made things worse for Fateh was the belief of an additional large percentage of voters (37%) that addressing lawlessness and chaos is the central issue that determines people’s vote. The fact that 75% stated that they personally do not feel safe and secure in their homes only made things worse for Fateh.​

This is how Hamas benefited from this:

71% of those who considered corruption the most important consideration in voting voted for Hamas and only 19% for Fateh and 11% for the other lists.

Support for Hamas among those least safe and secure reached 56% and for Fateh 31%. By contrast, vote for Hamas among the most safe and secure dropped to 35% while increasing to 53% in the case of Fateh. Other lists benefited also from the absence of safety and security as the percentage of support for these lists increased among the least safe and secure and decreased among the most safe and secure.​

These are the reasons Hamas was looked at more favorably by the Palestinian electorate and even then it was close. To make sweeping generalizations that this indicates support for the Jihadist movement based on Hamas' victory is inaccurate and unfair to the Palestinians.

Next, let's look at Palestinian attitudes in 2007: Survey Research Unit

Findings of the second quarter of 2013 show a widespread state of frustration and pessimism. 80% believe that the West Bank-Gaza Strip split is either permanent or long term. Less than one third of the public views the PA, in its two incarnations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as an accomplishment for the Palestinian people. Moreover, less than a third believes that a Palestinian state will be established in the next five years. In fact, a majority, while continuing to support the two-state solution, believes that it has become impractical due to settlement expansion. Perhaps for these reasons half of the public believes that its leadership from the beginnings has been a failed one.

...Findings also indicate public opposition to ideas brought by US Secretary of State John Kerry for restarting peace negotiations: without preconditions, with an economic package, and with focus on security and borders. The public is also opposed to several alternatives to negotiations such as return to an armed intifada, dissolution of the PA, and abandonment of the two-state solution in favor of one-state solution. But the public supports going to international organizations, especially to the International Criminal Court (ICC), despite its fears that such a step would bring about financial sanctions and the perhaps the collapse of the PA.​

What this indicates to me is that the current state of governance and the election precipitating it has far less to do with a simplistic "pro-intifada" meme (as claimed by the Pro-Israel faction) and more to do with complicated domestic issues and with a losing hope for self determination.

Perhaps the media has much to do with this perception of the Palestinian people.

 

[pbel]

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).

Not necessarily.

From what I read, Hamas was voted into power because they were seen as less corrupt than the entrenched status quo - on the basis of domestic issues not international issues and not because of some perceived desire for totalitarian rule.

(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

Lets look at the facts.

According to Wikipedia, the election was close:
Of the Electoral Lists, Hamas received 44.45% and Fatah 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.[1]

Palestinian Public Opinion Polls - 2006 exit polls: Survey Research Unit

Survey Research Unit

(5) The Peace Process and Electoral Behavior

Findings also show that 69% of those who place the peace process at the top of their priorities voted for Fateh while only 19% voted for Hamas. But findings show that only 9% placed the peace process at the top of the list of priorities which, needless to say, explains the devastating blow Fateh received on election day.

...Palestinian vote for Hamas on the day of elections should not however be interpreted as a vote against the peace process. About 60% of all voters identified themselves as supporters of the peace process while only 17% saw themselves as opposed to it and 23% saw themselves somewhere in the middle between opposition and support. Moreover, the vote does not mean that all those who voted for Hamas are opposed to the peace process. To the contrary, findings show that 40% of Hamas voters in fact support the peace process and only 30% oppose it. Moreover, abut one third of Hamas voters support collection of arms, the implementation of the Road Map, and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state in a two-state context. Findings clearly show that a majority of Fateh and the combined voters of other lists support all there elements of the peace process (see table below).​

And, from the same link:

(6) Corruption and Lawlessness and Electoral Behavior

Findings clearly show that what damaged Fateh’s electoral chances was the decision by a large percentage of voters (25%) to make the ability of the list or faction to fight corruption the most important consideration when voting for the various lists. What made things worse for Fateh was the belief of an additional large percentage of voters (37%) that addressing lawlessness and chaos is the central issue that determines people’s vote. The fact that 75% stated that they personally do not feel safe and secure in their homes only made things worse for Fateh.​

This is how Hamas benefited from this:

71% of those who considered corruption the most important consideration in voting voted for Hamas and only 19% for Fateh and 11% for the other lists.

Support for Hamas among those least safe and secure reached 56% and for Fateh 31%. By contrast, vote for Hamas among the most safe and secure dropped to 35% while increasing to 53% in the case of Fateh. Other lists benefited also from the absence of safety and security as the percentage of support for these lists increased among the least safe and secure and decreased among the most safe and secure.​

These are the reasons Hamas was looked at more favorably by the Palestinian electorate and even then it was close. To make sweeping generalizations that this indicates support for the Jihadist movement based on Hamas' victory is inaccurate and unfair to the Palestinians.

Next, let's look at Palestinian attitudes in 2007: Survey Research Unit

Findings of the second quarter of 2013 show a widespread state of frustration and pessimism. 80% believe that the West Bank-Gaza Strip split is either permanent or long term. Less than one third of the public views the PA, in its two incarnations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as an accomplishment for the Palestinian people. Moreover, less than a third believes that a Palestinian state will be established in the next five years. In fact, a majority, while continuing to support the two-state solution, believes that it has become impractical due to settlement expansion. Perhaps for these reasons half of the public believes that its leadership from the beginnings has been a failed one.

...Findings also indicate public opposition to ideas brought by US Secretary of State John Kerry for restarting peace negotiations: without preconditions, with an economic package, and with focus on security and borders. The public is also opposed to several alternatives to negotiations such as return to an armed intifada, dissolution of the PA, and abandonment of the two-state solution in favor of one-state solution. But the public supports going to international organizations, especially to the International Criminal Court (ICC), despite its fears that such a step would bring about financial sanctions and the perhaps the collapse of the PA.​

What this indicates to me is that the current state of governance and the election precipitating it has far less to do with a simplistic "pro-intifada" meme (as claimed by the Pro-Israel faction) and more to do with complicated domestic issues and with a losing hope for self determination.

Perhaps the media has much to do with this perception of the Palestinian people.

Fatah like all ME countries and clans operate on a quasi corrupt buddy system almost Mafiosi. It is going to take many many years for the cultural mind-set in the ME to change...

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).


(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

Lets look at the facts.

According to Wikipedia, the election was close:
Of the Electoral Lists, Hamas received 44.45% and Fatah 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.[1]

Palestinian Public Opinion Polls - 2006 exit polls: Survey Research Unit

Survey Research Unit

(5) The Peace Process and Electoral Behavior

Findings also show that 69% of those who place the peace process at the top of their priorities voted for Fateh while only 19% voted for Hamas. But findings show that only 9% placed the peace process at the top of the list of priorities which, needless to say, explains the devastating blow Fateh received on election day.

...Palestinian vote for Hamas on the day of elections should not however be interpreted as a vote against the peace process. About 60% of all voters identified themselves as supporters of the peace process while only 17% saw themselves as opposed to it and 23% saw themselves somewhere in the middle between opposition and support. Moreover, the vote does not mean that all those who voted for Hamas are opposed to the peace process. To the contrary, findings show that 40% of Hamas voters in fact support the peace process and only 30% oppose it. Moreover, abut one third of Hamas voters support collection of arms, the implementation of the Road Map, and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state in a two-state context. Findings clearly show that a majority of Fateh and the combined voters of other lists support all there elements of the peace process (see table below).​

And, from the same link:

(6) Corruption and Lawlessness and Electoral Behavior

Findings clearly show that what damaged Fateh’s electoral chances was the decision by a large percentage of voters (25%) to make the ability of the list or faction to fight corruption the most important consideration when voting for the various lists. What made things worse for Fateh was the belief of an additional large percentage of voters (37%) that addressing lawlessness and chaos is the central issue that determines people’s vote. The fact that 75% stated that they personally do not feel safe and secure in their homes only made things worse for Fateh.​

This is how Hamas benefited from this:

71% of those who considered corruption the most important consideration in voting voted for Hamas and only 19% for Fateh and 11% for the other lists.

Support for Hamas among those least safe and secure reached 56% and for Fateh 31%. By contrast, vote for Hamas among the most safe and secure dropped to 35% while increasing to 53% in the case of Fateh. Other lists benefited also from the absence of safety and security as the percentage of support for these lists increased among the least safe and secure and decreased among the most safe and secure.​

These are the reasons Hamas was looked at more favorably by the Palestinian electorate and even then it was close. To make sweeping generalizations that this indicates support for the Jihadist movement based on Hamas' victory is inaccurate and unfair to the Palestinians.

Next, let's look at Palestinian attitudes in 2007: Survey Research Unit

Findings of the second quarter of 2013 show a widespread state of frustration and pessimism. 80% believe that the West Bank-Gaza Strip split is either permanent or long term. Less than one third of the public views the PA, in its two incarnations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as an accomplishment for the Palestinian people. Moreover, less than a third believes that a Palestinian state will be established in the next five years. In fact, a majority, while continuing to support the two-state solution, believes that it has become impractical due to settlement expansion. Perhaps for these reasons half of the public believes that its leadership from the beginnings has been a failed one.

...Findings also indicate public opposition to ideas brought by US Secretary of State John Kerry for restarting peace negotiations: without preconditions, with an economic package, and with focus on security and borders. The public is also opposed to several alternatives to negotiations such as return to an armed intifada, dissolution of the PA, and abandonment of the two-state solution in favor of one-state solution. But the public supports going to international organizations, especially to the International Criminal Court (ICC), despite its fears that such a step would bring about financial sanctions and the perhaps the collapse of the PA.​

What this indicates to me is that the current state of governance and the election precipitating it has far less to do with a simplistic "pro-intifada" meme (as claimed by the Pro-Israel faction) and more to do with complicated domestic issues and with a losing hope for self determination.

Perhaps the media has much to do with this perception of the Palestinian people.

Fatah like all ME countries and clans operate on a quasi corrupt buddy system almost Mafiosi. It is going to take many many years for the cultural mind-set in the ME to change...

I agree and that is one reason it is so hard to get rid of corruption in those countries.

 

[RoccoR]

reabhloideach, Coyote, et al,

What was that "real optimism expressed" by the Palestinian.

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).

Not necessarily.

From what I read, Hamas was voted into power because they were seen as less corrupt than the entrenched status quo - on the basis of domestic issues not international issues and not because of some perceived desire for totalitarian rule.

(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

i think you are ignoring the very real optimism expressed by the palestinian people when abbas emerged as a leader after arafat's death and how israel managed to compromise him and marginalise his program.

palestinians, and particularly gazans, did not so much vote for HAMAS as they voted against abbas and the PLO.

(COMMENT)

Whether you examine the goals and objectives of HAMAS or FATAH (Abbas/PLO/PA), they are very similar. Both have an intent that is inconsistent with the original concept behind the reconstitution of the Jewish Homeland; both want all the land, and neither is interested in peace as a relationship with the Jewish People.

Not withstanding:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.

Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.

The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)​

Media suppression and control, for maintaining and support the regime, is the part of the basic HAMAS program. They do not deny this.

This is what the Palestinian People wanted, this is their pledge, and this is what they received. They rejected the concept of the Arab State and opted for war. Again, I remind you that HAMAS sees it as very necessary that information and media people, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening. And if the media that does not conform with the precepts that the Jewish sanctuary must be replaced with a Palestine that is an "Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs, the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries," it will be suppressed.

And it is a said commentary, to find myself defending the rights of the "Al Arabiya and Maan," two media outlets that I don't even care for, as an expression of my concern that dissenting opinions are oppressed.

(SIDEBAR)

When the UN Security Council makes a recommendation to admit a nation to the UN, it states that --- that country " peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly." How anyone with a straight face could apply those words of description to anything "Palestinian" given their objectives, goals and stated intentions (written and spoken), is beyond me.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

reabhloideach, Coyote, et al,

What was that "real optimism expressed" by the Palestinian.

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).


(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

i think you are ignoring the very real optimism expressed by the palestinian people when abbas emerged as a leader after arafat's death and how israel managed to compromise him and marginalise his program.

palestinians, and particularly gazans, did not so much vote for HAMAS as they voted against abbas and the PLO.

(COMMENT)

Whether you examine the goals and objectives of HAMAS or FATAH (Abbas/PLO/PA), they are very similar. Both have an intent that is inconsistent with the original concept behind the reconstitution of the Jewish Homeland; both want all the land, and neither is interested in peace as a relationship with the Jewish People.

Not withstanding:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.

Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.

The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)​

Media suppression and control, for maintaining and support the regime, is the part of the basic HAMAS program. They do not deny this.

This is what the Palestinian People wanted, this is their pledge, and this is what they received. They rejected the concept of the Arab State and opted for war. Again, I remind you that HAMAS sees it as very necessary that information and media people, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening. And if the media that does not conform with the precepts that the Jewish sanctuary must be replaced with a Palestine that is an "Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs, the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries," it will be suppressed.

And it is a said commentary, to find myself defending the rights of the "Al Arabiya and Maan," two media outlets that I don't even care for, as an expression of my concern that dissenting opinions are oppressed.

(SIDEBAR)

When the UN Security Council makes a recommendation to admit a nation to the UN, it states that --- that country " peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly." How anyone with a straight face could apply those words of description to anything "Palestinian" given their objectives, goals and stated intentions (written and spoken), is beyond me.Most Respectfully,
R

Well then tell us how Israel has applied those rules since it actually has signed onto that theory, especially in light of the many UN violations already assessed?

 

[Coyote]

reabhloideach, Coyote, et al,

What was that "real optimism expressed" by the Palestinian.

Coyote, et al,

This presupposes that the people of the Gaza Strip did not understand the tenants that are behind the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS).


(COMMENT)

I believe that the Gazians completely understood that in voting for HAMAS, they were voting for a continuation of the Jihadist movement, and ultimately the establishment of Sharia and the Islamic State. It has been six years this month that Hamas has ruled in the Gaza Strip. There is no sign from the People that they want to change the government. It is unreasonable to assume that the People of Government do not understand the movement and the objective of HAMAS. The Gaza Strip is destine to be an Islamic Waqf.

Most Respectfully,
R

i think you are ignoring the very real optimism expressed by the palestinian people when abbas emerged as a leader after arafat's death and how israel managed to compromise him and marginalise his program.

palestinians, and particularly gazans, did not so much vote for HAMAS as they voted against abbas and the PLO.

(COMMENT)

Whether you examine the goals and objectives of HAMAS or FATAH (Abbas/PLO/PA), they are very similar. Both have an intent that is inconsistent with the original concept behind the reconstitution of the Jewish Homeland; both want all the land, and neither is interested in peace as a relationship with the Jewish People.

Not withstanding:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....​

Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.

Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.

The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)​

Media suppression and control, for maintaining and support the regime, is the part of the basic HAMAS program. They do not deny this.

This is what the Palestinian People wanted, this is their pledge, and this is what they received. They rejected the concept of the Arab State and opted for war. Again, I remind you that HAMAS sees it as very necessary that information and media people, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening. And if the media that does not conform with the precepts that the Jewish sanctuary must be replaced with a Palestine that is an "Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs, the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries," it will be suppressed.

And it is a said commentary, to find myself defending the rights of the "Al Arabiya and Maan," two media outlets that I don't even care for, as an expression of my concern that dissenting opinions are oppressed.

(SIDEBAR)

When the UN Security Council makes a recommendation to admit a nation to the UN, it states that --- that country " peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly." How anyone with a straight face could apply those words of description to anything "Palestinian" given their objectives, goals and stated intentions (written and spoken), is beyond me.

Most Respectfully,
R

If you want to really know what the Palestinian PEOPLE think, I think it's better to ask them directly, not indirectly via the views of select jihadists or Hamas. Doing so seems to present a very simplistic view of a very complex situation. Better to get it from the sources - the people.

 

[Coyote]

When the UN Security Council makes a recommendation to admit a nation to the UN, it states that --- that country " peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter, and accordingly." How anyone with a straight face could apply those words of description to anything "Palestinian" given their objectives, goals and stated intentions (written and spoken), is beyond me.

Most Respectfully,
R

How many countries won their right to self-determination through peaceful means? Peace and a change in rhetoric came about after the fight was won.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Lets look at the facts.

According to Wikipedia, the election was close:
Of the Electoral Lists, Hamas received 44.45% and Fatah 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.[1]

Palestinian Public Opinion Polls - 2006 exit polls: Survey Research Unit

Survey Research Unit

(5) The Peace Process and Electoral Behavior

Findings also show that 69% of those who place the peace process at the top of their priorities voted for Fateh while only 19% voted for Hamas. But findings show that only 9% placed the peace process at the top of the list of priorities which, needless to say, explains the devastating blow Fateh received on election day.

...Palestinian vote for Hamas on the day of elections should not however be interpreted as a vote against the peace process. About 60% of all voters identified themselves as supporters of the peace process while only 17% saw themselves as opposed to it and 23% saw themselves somewhere in the middle between opposition and support. Moreover, the vote does not mean that all those who voted for Hamas are opposed to the peace process. To the contrary, findings show that 40% of Hamas voters in fact support the peace process and only 30% oppose it. Moreover, abut one third of Hamas voters support collection of arms, the implementation of the Road Map, and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state in a two-state context. Findings clearly show that a majority of Fateh and the combined voters of other lists support all there elements of the peace process (see table below).​

And, from the same link:

(6) Corruption and Lawlessness and Electoral Behavior

Findings clearly show that what damaged Fateh’s electoral chances was the decision by a large percentage of voters (25%) to make the ability of the list or faction to fight corruption the most important consideration when voting for the various lists. What made things worse for Fateh was the belief of an additional large percentage of voters (37%) that addressing lawlessness and chaos is the central issue that determines people’s vote. The fact that 75% stated that they personally do not feel safe and secure in their homes only made things worse for Fateh.​

This is how Hamas benefited from this:

71% of those who considered corruption the most important consideration in voting voted for Hamas and only 19% for Fateh and 11% for the other lists.

Support for Hamas among those least safe and secure reached 56% and for Fateh 31%. By contrast, vote for Hamas among the most safe and secure dropped to 35% while increasing to 53% in the case of Fateh. Other lists benefited also from the absence of safety and security as the percentage of support for these lists increased among the least safe and secure and decreased among the most safe and secure.​

These are the reasons Hamas was looked at more favorably by the Palestinian electorate and even then it was close. To make sweeping generalizations that this indicates support for the Jihadist movement based on Hamas' victory is inaccurate and unfair to the Palestinians.

Next, let's look at Palestinian attitudes in 2007: Survey Research Unit

Findings of the second quarter of 2013 show a widespread state of frustration and pessimism. 80% believe that the West Bank-Gaza Strip split is either permanent or long term. Less than one third of the public views the PA, in its two incarnations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as an accomplishment for the Palestinian people. Moreover, less than a third believes that a Palestinian state will be established in the next five years. In fact, a majority, while continuing to support the two-state solution, believes that it has become impractical due to settlement expansion. Perhaps for these reasons half of the public believes that its leadership from the beginnings has been a failed one.

...Findings also indicate public opposition to ideas brought by US Secretary of State John Kerry for restarting peace negotiations: without preconditions, with an economic package, and with focus on security and borders. The public is also opposed to several alternatives to negotiations such as return to an armed intifada, dissolution of the PA, and abandonment of the two-state solution in favor of one-state solution. But the public supports going to international organizations, especially to the International Criminal Court (ICC), despite its fears that such a step would bring about financial sanctions and the perhaps the collapse of the PA.​

What this indicates to me is that the current state of governance and the election precipitating it has far less to do with a simplistic "pro-intifada" meme (as claimed by the Pro-Israel faction) and more to do with complicated domestic issues and with a losing hope for self determination.

Perhaps the media has much to do with this perception of the Palestinian people.

Fatah like all ME countries and clans operate on a quasi corrupt buddy system almost Mafiosi. It is going to take many many years for the cultural mind-set in the ME to change...

I agree and that is one reason it is so hard to get rid of corruption in those countries.

Speaking of hard to get rid of corruption:

Howizzit that Fatah lost the nationwide election but still rules the West Bank?

 

[pbel]

Fatah like all ME countries and clans operate on a quasi corrupt buddy system almost Mafiosi. It is going to take many many years for the cultural mind-set in the ME to change...

I agree and that is one reason it is so hard to get rid of corruption in those countries.

Speaking of hard to get rid of corruption:

Howizzit that Fatah lost the nationwide election but still rules the West Bank?

We really cannot judge ME Corruption by Western Standards...Without rule of law the law of the jungle ruled these societies prior to the Rise of Islam which challenges the disparity of the rich and poor, and corruption…It gave some laws albeit religious to a lawless region where guns ruled.

Corruption is more of a buddy system and ironically Corruption by Israeli Prime Ministers is a parade compared the Palestinian rulers.

 

[RoccoR]

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

Not necessarily.

From what I read, Hamas was voted into power because they were seen as less corrupt than the entrenched status quo - on the basis of domestic issues not international issues and not because of some perceived desire for totalitarian rule.

That's true.

But look at what they have accomplished in the last days.

Egypt is suffering from Jihadists from Gaza terrorizing it, many of them Morsi supporters. The Egyptian military is not pleased that Hamas doesn't force the Salafis to get out of Egypt and not get involved in their business.

So what do they do? They destroy tunnels. They cut out fuel. they close their gates.

All that thanks to Hamas.

It is only a matter of times before the Palestinians realize, if they are smart enough for it, that Hamas is worse for them than any Fatah regime, EVER.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

That's true.

But look at what they have accomplished in the last days.

Egypt is suffering from Jihadists from Gaza terrorizing it, many of them Morsi supporters. The Egyptian military is not pleased that Hamas doesn't force the Salafis to get out of Egypt and not get involved in their business.

So what do they do? They destroy tunnels. They cut out fuel. they close their gates.

All that thanks to Hamas.

It is only a matter of times before the Palestinians realize, if they are smart enough for it, that Hamas is worse for them than any Fatah regime, EVER.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, good tactical logic, don't you think?

What Hamas and Fatah are doing is playing good cop and bad cop...Fatah uses peace at the UN while Hamas does not let Israel forget the dangers of looming war.

If Palestine becomes a State and I'm sure if peace is not signed by Israel to somewhere near the 67 borders, even America will abstain at the UN and allow passage.

Americans are sick of taking it in the chin for Israel.

Peace now, or go on your own!

 

[P F Tinmore]

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

That's true.

But look at what they have accomplished in the last days.

Egypt is suffering from Jihadists from Gaza terrorizing it, many of them Morsi supporters. The Egyptian military is not pleased that Hamas doesn't force the Salafis to get out of Egypt and not get involved in their business.

So what do they do? They destroy tunnels. They cut out fuel. they close their gates.

All that thanks to Hamas.

It is only a matter of times before the Palestinians realize, if they are smart enough for it, that Hamas is worse for them than any Fatah regime, EVER.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas intends to defend Palestinian rights.

Fatah intends to sell off those rights for their own gain.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

HAMAS is not about Palestinian rights.

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas intends to defend Palestinian rights.

Fatah intends to sell off those rights for their own gain.

(COMMENT)

I oppose any organization or government that opposes international law and make preference to War. Both HAMAS and FATAH are in this venue.

• FATAH: "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

• HAMAS: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

One is just as bad as the other.

Based on their action and deeds, neither wants to negotiate in good faith. If this is the best the Palestinian can do to help evolve humanity, then they have no contribution to make at all.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

That's true.

But look at what they have accomplished in the last days.

Egypt is suffering from Jihadists from Gaza terrorizing it, many of them Morsi supporters. The Egyptian military is not pleased that Hamas doesn't force the Salafis to get out of Egypt and not get involved in their business.

So what do they do? They destroy tunnels. They cut out fuel. they close their gates.

All that thanks to Hamas.

It is only a matter of times before the Palestinians realize, if they are smart enough for it, that Hamas is worse for them than any Fatah regime, EVER.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

I disagree. For example, consider our own system - how many times have you voted for a party or candidate and agreed with ALL the platforms?

Sometimes - often in fact - you are stuck making the best of bad choices and the choice may be dependent on only a handful of items you consider very important. That does not mean you support the other items.

We have the luxery of analyzing Palestinian and Israeli politics from a distance. We aren't living under them.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

There is merit in this argument to a degree.

I disagree. For example, consider our own system - how many times have you voted for a party or candidate and agreed with ALL the platforms?

(COMMENT)

In our own system, not all parties have a platform based on:

• FATAH: "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."
• HAMAS: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

Post Number 7596984​

However, both platforms are anti-peace platforms.

Sometimes - often in fact - you are stuck making the best of bad choices and the choice may be dependent on only a handful of items you consider very important. That does not mean you support the other items.

(COMMENT)

True. Probably, in fact, more often than not.

But, when you support a program that contains "War or Jihad" --- even though you may not directly support "War or Jihad" --- your opposition to the idea was not so demonstrative that you actively opposed it. You compromised in favor of "War or Jihad" to gain some other aspect of the platform that was more important to you than "peace" (opposition to "War or Jihad").

We have the luxery of analyzing Palestinian and Israeli politics from a distance. We aren't living under them.

(COMMENT)

True! But using that logic, the US should not support either side; and neither should individuals.

Unfortunately, our foreign policy is not geared that way. The US (as a nation) openly opposes any state, non-state, and independent activities that have within its core policy, a purpose, the advocation for the use of violence, whatever its motives or purposes, as the principle option intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, pressure or hostilely influence the policy of a government, to affect the conduct of a government.

Both HAMAS and FATAH perform inherently governmental functions on behave of the people that are called Palestinians and provide material support to each. See their platform above.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

There is merit in this argument to a degree.

I disagree. For example, consider our own system - how many times have you voted for a party or candidate and agreed with ALL the platforms?

(COMMENT)

In our own system, not all parties have a platform based on:

• FATAH: "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."
• HAMAS: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

Post Number 7596984​

However, both platforms are anti-peace platforms.

Sometimes - often in fact - you are stuck making the best of bad choices and the choice may be dependent on only a handful of items you consider very important. That does not mean you support the other items.

(COMMENT)

True. Probably, in fact, more often than not.

But, when you support a program that contains "War or Jihad" --- even though you may not directly support "War or Jihad" --- your opposition to the idea was not so demonstrative that you actively opposed it. You compromised in favor of "War or Jihad" to gain some other aspect of the platform that was more important to you than "peace" (opposition to "War or Jihad").

You are grossly simplifying their platforms aren't you? You are are taking multi-page charters and forcing them into one quote that may or may not comprise the whole of their platform. In doing so you may be creating a false equivalency between Hamas and Fatah.

For example, look at Fatah: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fwJND0Z04sSQ7jA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.ZGU&cad=rja

and consider your brief quote: "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

What is that quote's context? EVERY modern nation has been founded on the basis of armed struggle and revolution - such is often "nobalized" in foundational documents including those of our own country.

The platform for Fatah is about much more than your one quote and - again - I would suggest you look at what the people actually say rather than attempt to distill it from a charter.

We have the luxery of analyzing Palestinian and Israeli politics from a distance. We aren't living under them.

(COMMENT)

True! But using that logic, the US should not support either side; and neither should individuals.

Unfortunately, our foreign policy is not geared that way. The US (as a nation) openly opposes any state, non-state, and independent activities that have within its core policy, a purpose, the advocation for the use of violence, whatever its motives or purposes, as the principle option intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, pressure or hostilely influence the policy of a government, to affect the conduct of a government.

Both HAMAS and FATAH perform inherently governmental functions on behave of the people that are called Palestinians and provide material support to each. See their platform above.

Most Respectfully,
R

You have not given me their platforms - I linked to Fatah's..

 

[sealadaigh]

reabhloideach, et al,

Yes, this is "hope," but, coupled with a dangerous cause.

That's true.

But look at what they have accomplished in the last days.

Egypt is suffering from Jihadists from Gaza terrorizing it, many of them Morsi supporters. The Egyptian military is not pleased that Hamas doesn't force the Salafis to get out of Egypt and not get involved in their business.

So what do they do? They destroy tunnels. They cut out fuel. they close their gates.

All that thanks to Hamas.

It is only a matter of times before the Palestinians realize, if they are smart enough for it, that Hamas is worse for them than any Fatah regime, EVER.

i have seen no indication that palestinians are any more or less smart than other peoples.

i don't like HAMAS either particularly because of the religious aspects, but they offer hope to the palestinians and palestinians are grasping at that hope.

(COMMENT)

Smart is not the issue so much as it is with a certain amount of wisdom.

If the Palestinians, being smart, understand HAMAS and its intention, then it is reasonable to say that they support those intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

if the palestinians, being smart as well as wise, and i think they are both, understand israel's demonstrated intentions and the stated intentions of many israeli citisens ("judea and samaria belong to the people of israel"), then more important than HAMAS' intentions is their opposition to the enemy of palestine.

revolutions and insurgencies are processes, not final outcomes.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

Well, actually I did, but the thread on that topic has disappeared. I made a comparison to the six major points between the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) Covenant and the Palestine National Charter of 1968 of Record.

I'm barred from entering the thread so I may have touched a nerve. It says: "RoccoR, you do not have permission to access this page."

You have not given me their platforms - I linked to Fatah's..

(TRUNCATED COMMENT)

CHARTER: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

COVENANT: The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.

----- ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- ------- -------​

CHARTER: He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation.

COVENANT: There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. This is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase.

• fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad.
  
• It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
  
• Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason,

----- ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- ------- -------​

CHARTER: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine.

COVENANT: The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.

----- ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- ------- -------​

CHARTER:

• The partition of Palestine in 1947, and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and its natural right in their homeland,
  
• The Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, and everything that has been based on them, are deemed null and void.

COVENANT:

• Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
  
• Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

----- ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- ------- -------​

​

Most Respectfully,
R