Morality of Wealth Redistribution

[Ernie S.]

The rich have provided me with the opportunity to succeed in my field and to live fairly comfortably in my semi-retirement.

I've owned my business for five years, and no one has ever quit. Business owners know if we hire the right people and take care of them, they will take care of us. I can go on vacation for a week and not worry about the business at all. However, that is because I have hired the right people, trained and supported them and worked with them to establish and document procedures. I also deal with staff who can't cut it and get rid of them. That is critical to a healthy business. None of my good employees were ever threatened by my firing the bad ones.

Without great ownership and management though, it all falls apart. The employees can't do those things themselves. Government sure as hell can't do it. Even when you do it well and have great staff, they have no idea how much hits me dealing with government, financing, doing deals, making payroll. And if I am not compensated for it, I am not going to do it. Period. Liberals are idiots.

I'm glad you get it, Ernie.

Of course, I get it. I spent most of my career working for people that had acquired some capitol and started a business that would benefit from someone with my expertise. My contributions made well off people wealthy and me comfortable, eventually resulting in me being able to open a small business of my own.
But DAMN!
Taxes, licenses, inspections and regulations cost more than my lease, and people want to rip me off.

Taxes! Geeze! Every time I sell a $4.00 shot of whiskey, The state gets $0.50 and the feds get a dime. An $8.00 shot costs a dollar just in taxes.

I can only buy liquor from the State of Alabama and beer from approved distributors. There are 3 in my area and if I want to sell Anheuser Busch products, I have to deal with only one. Miller products, another with a 3rd handling imports and crafts.
The distributors know they have me by the nuts. I pay about 10% more for my beer than you would from a grocery store and I buy it 40 or 50 cases at a time.

My people don't quit either. As a matter of fact, if one did now I could get someone in to take their place in an hour. I have a list of people wanting to work for me.

I used it last week when I finally found exactly where 20 or 30 beers and a bottle or more of rum were going each week. I used it once before when I caught an employee with drugs on site.

I did a full physical inventory every day for 2 weeks to be certain. That involves removing nearly every bottle of beer in a 10 foot long chest cooler, (roughly 1,000) counting and putting them back in, counting full cases in storage, and measuring every liquor bottle in the place. This all had to be completed before the staff arrived.

Some times I started it at 4 AM, once we had closed and cleaned up, sometimes 8 or 10 AM.

I've relaxed. I did Miller products today, mostly because I needed to get 5 cases cold for tonight and had to rotate new product to the bottom.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Morality of Wealth Redistribution

"There is widespread cognitive dissonance on the right when it comes to social welfare, a social safety net, and the redistribution of wealth generally. Self-described conservatives often articulate their first principles as if they oppose all welfare spending. But they don't actually think food stamps or welfare checks for impoverished families should be eliminated, which helps explain why redistributive social-welfare spending exists in red states as well as blue states, in red counties as well as blue counties, across Republican as well as Democratic majorities.


Conservatives talk tough. They're convinced the system has a lot of waste and fraud. The idea of freeloading hucksters on welfare outrages them to a degree far out of proportion to other government waste, sometimes for discreditable reasons. They're not all talk on welfare cuts, but their bark is worse than their bite.

This is most obvious when one examines the candidates behind whom the conservative movement rallies and what happens when they actually win elections. No one who reads Ayn Rand carefully could mistake the world she hoped to create for any program by any Republican president or congressional majority. The height of movement conservatism under Reagan did not even begin to undo the New Deal. President George W. Bush expanded social welfare in the healthcare system. Neither John McCain nor Mitt Romney, the conservative alternative to McCain in 2008, can be mistaken for ideological anti-statists."



Is Conservatism as We Know It Doomed - The Atlantic



For conservatives, therefore, the issue isn't so much one of 'morality,' but a lack of consistency and conviction.

 

[Crystalclear]

There should be some welfare for a few people who really need it, but overall it is not moral to take money from a person and give it to another.

 

[dcraelin]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

 

[dnsmith35]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

You have stated your opinion. I actually have no dog in this hunt. I am a 78 year old retiree (for 27 years now), but I attack stupidity when I see it.You have explained nothing. You are an ignorant ass. BTW, that is not defense, it is frustrated offense directed at an idiot.

 

[dnsmith35]

In addition numb nut, very few if any college stadiums are built our of the City's/County's/State's money. Mostly they are built and improved by the income from the primary sports which use them.

 

[BluesLegend]

I know I'm motivated working overtime to pay the bills of able body lazy deadbeats and illegals. /sarcasm

 

[dcraelin]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

You have stated your opinion. I actually have no dog in this hunt. I am a 78 year old retiree (for 27 years now), but I attack stupidity when I see it.You have explained nothing. You are an ignorant ass. BTW, that is not defense, it is frustrated offense directed at an idiot.

Why all the name calling if you have no dog in this hunt? Maybe you're just getting senile. Whatever....Ill trust the professors over you.

 

[kaz]

Why all the name calling if you have no dog in this hunt? Maybe your just getting senile. Whatever....Ill trust the professors over you.

LOL, I always like people who criticize people for mental shortcomings, and do it with a demonstration you don't know the English language...

 

[gtopa1]

I know I'm motivated working overtime to pay the bills of able body lazy deadbeats and illegals. /sarcasm

You work?? I suppose it's possible. Ah: affirmative action of course.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

You have stated your opinion. I actually have no dog in this hunt. I am a 78 year old retiree (for 27 years now), but I attack stupidity when I see it.You have explained nothing. You are an ignorant ass. BTW, that is not defense, it is frustrated offense directed at an idiot.

Why all the name calling if you have no dog in this hunt? Maybe you're just getting senile. Whatever....Ill trust the professors over you.

This is strange. DNSmith has put the numbers up. From your source Judith Grant Long has included the following: "Long’s analysis added costs such as those for land, infrastructure and lost tax revenue, while subtracting money that flows back to states or cities from revenue or rent payments."

So where the land has a commercial value but was owned by the state then that becomes added. The cost of infrastructure upgrades AROUND the stadiums are added even though they are only partially utilised by the stadium patrons and are used more by local traffic. Lost tax revenues...so getting nothing from nothing is better than getting nothing from something?? Is she an accountant? Actually she's an Assistant Prof and with that sort of cost adding then one would never build anything. Opportunity costs are NOT part of any Accounting Methods I've ever seen.

Your reliance on a SINGLE academic without critically looking at their methods is frankly not very adequate.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

C_Clayton

"For conservatives, therefore, the issue isn't so much one of 'morality,' but a lack of consistency and conviction."

Nonsense. Every Conservative I know is generous to a fault regarding the genuinely needy. The problem with liberals is that they want to maintain people in a lifestyle of dependency. It is a wrong desire. Dependency is soul destroying and results in pressures under which many families break down. There is NOTHING in any Conservative attitude that lacks conviction or consistency. By all means support the unemployed if needed UNTIL THEY FIND A JOB. Support the widows and orphans if they have no family to look after them. Assist those who are infirm and unable to provide for themselves.

But for the fools bludging on the system...stuff them!!

Greg

 

[bripat9643]

Morality of Wealth Redistribution

"There is widespread cognitive dissonance on the right when it comes to social welfare, a social safety net, and the redistribution of wealth generally. Self-described conservatives often articulate their first principles as if they oppose all welfare spending. But they don't actually think food stamps or welfare checks for impoverished families should be eliminated, which helps explain why redistributive social-welfare spending exists in red states as well as blue states, in red counties as well as blue counties, across Republican as well as Democratic majorities.


Conservatives talk tough. They're convinced the system has a lot of waste and fraud. The idea of freeloading hucksters on welfare outrages them to a degree far out of proportion to other government waste, sometimes for discreditable reasons. They're not all talk on welfare cuts, but their bark is worse than their bite.

This is most obvious when one examines the candidates behind whom the conservative movement rallies and what happens when they actually win elections. No one who reads Ayn Rand carefully could mistake the world she hoped to create for any program by any Republican president or congressional majority. The height of movement conservatism under Reagan did not even begin to undo the New Deal. President George W. Bush expanded social welfare in the healthcare system. Neither John McCain nor Mitt Romney, the conservative alternative to McCain in 2008, can be mistaken for ideological anti-statists."

Is Conservatism as We Know It Doomed - The Atlantic

For conservatives, therefore, the issue isn't so much one of 'morality,' but a lack of consistency and conviction.

Neither Romney nor McCain were conservatives. They were RINOs. They were the Republican candidates selected by the media. The New York Times endorsed both of them, if that tells you anything.

So your "analysis" is faulty based on that bogus premise alone.

 

[dcraelin]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

You have stated your opinion. I actually have no dog in this hunt. I am a 78 year old retiree (for 27 years now), but I attack stupidity when I see it.You have explained nothing. You are an ignorant ass. BTW, that is not defense, it is frustrated offense directed at an idiot.

Why all the name calling if you have no dog in this hunt? Maybe you're just getting senile. Whatever....Ill trust the professors over you.

This is strange. DNSmith has put the numbers up. From your source Judith Grant Long has included the following: "Long’s analysis added costs such as those for land, infrastructure and lost tax revenue, while subtracting money that flows back to states or cities from revenue or rent payments."

So where the land has a commercial value but was owned by the state then that becomes added. The cost of infrastructure upgrades AROUND the stadiums are added even though they are only partially utilised by the stadium patrons and are used more by local traffic. Lost tax revenues...so getting nothing from nothing is better than getting nothing from something?? Is she an accountant? Actually she's an Assistant Prof and with that sort of cost adding then one would never build anything. Opportunity costs are NOT part of any Accounting Methods I've ever seen.

Your reliance on a SINGLE academic without critically looking at their methods is frankly not very adequate.

Greg

well I talked about 2 books by I believe 4 professors, not a "single academic". Ive seen some of these infrastructure upgrades AROUND stadiums that would not be at all necessary if the stadium was not built. I'm not an Accountant but I believe there are different methods for different needs,i.e. taxes, business determinations. Within taxation there are different methods. Opportunity costs should be considered when trying to make these kind of decisions

 

[dnsmith35]

It would cost more money to purchase a library and reduce college athletics. At LSU, before the U was filled in we had 40,000 paying customers tromp through the stadium, enough to cover the cost of the sports and make a profit sufficient to fund university activities previously not possible. Adding 20,000 more paying customers (and now 101,000 with the new additions) along with the oil wells on university property and a functioning sugar mill as part of the chemical engineering program. It is short sighted to reduce profit making processes to buy activities that the profit making process pays for without state money and will continue making money for years to come. Go on line, check out how much the average ticket to an LSU v any SEC team. The profit from that alone is staggering, and that does not include the huge media fees to broadcast sports events.

Pro-stadiums make money for the local tax payers as well, usually recovering the cost in just a couple of years, then the rest is gravy.

Well I know that pro-stadiums are rip-offs.....non-biased studies have shown so...... they cannibalize existing entertainment dollars for one thing....Your endorsement of them calls into question your endorsement of College stadiums........

Also, Is it fair for taxpayer funded entities to compete with free market based businesses? Such as your sugar mill example.

Also, like I pointed to before, the real draw isnt the stadium but the play....the athletes, which are not compensated.

Regardless of all that, the appropriateness of using tax-exempt bonds is still in question. If colleges want to build stadiums.....if they see a benefit....then they should perhaps do so with taxable bonds....All forms of borrowing should be equal on a taxation basis.

That is THE dumbest statement ever.
Request Rejected
There is reason why cities clamor for pro sports teams when they talk of moving

what request?
Yeah there IS a reason....their leadership are idiots and crooks.

Here is a link to an article about a new book which talks about all the subsidies to stadiums, and how it is having a negative impact on city finances.
New book by Harvard prof details 10b in hidden stadium and arena subsidies Field of Schemes
There was also an article in today's WSJ asking if college is worth it. It refers to another book and the authors say college value has plummeted due to exclusive building of student centers and stadiums.

Interesting that you use OPINIONS to support your case. I, on the other hand, have used the profit features of big college football even if those whipper wills are crying in the distance. I know from absolute fact that when LSU enclosed their U the additional profit paid for the library after one year, so go stuff yourself. When and if (you can't) you can show sports do not create a profit for the universities let me know. I'm waiting!

Opinions?...........that's all you have offered !!!!...........these are two books by college professors who have done studies of the economics of these things..........extensive study..........they offer a heck of a lot more than you have. And they presumably would be happy to acknowledge any good stadiums do as they earn their living at universities.

Wrong answer! College professors have opinions. Many would like to see college athletics go away because they believe it hurts academics, in spite of the fact the profits from the major sports put money into academics to teach more young people.

I looked at the actual profits big college sports programs put back to the school. Profits trump professor opinions every time, INCLUDING but not only the professors who wanted to build the new library in spite of the fact profits from football and basketball profits built the new library without the state putting up the money. The worse case scenarios are found in small programs which may better be eliminated. But big time school athletics are money makers.Are you really that ignorant? I suspect you don't even realize that even the lowest of the top 40 programs made $56.5 million. Here is a list of the top 40 in a study taken in 2008:

Colleges RK TEAM TICKETS STUDENTS AWAY_GAMES DONATIONS UNIVERSITY MEDIA_RIGHTS BRANDING TTLREVENUE
1 Crimson Tide $28,410,419 $0 $5,500 $29,860,400 $4,101,515 $8,825,964 $4,506,056 $123,769,841
2 Longhorns $44,691,119 $1,832,229 $318,000 $35,057,421 $0 $191,690 $16,639,171 $120,288,370
3 Buckeyes $38,608,138 $0 $3,750,189 $27,556,385 $0 $15,799,713 $5,015,349 $115,737,022
4 Gators $21,122,966 $2,578,306 $283,376 $42,630,821 $0 $3,907,635 $10,184,021 $106,607,895
5 Volunteers $29,403,335 $1,000,000 $250,000 $26,405,309 $0 $6,650,000 $4,154,643 $101,806,196
6 Wolverines $40,258,325 $0 $245,178 $15,138,000 $58,817 $2,025,000 $11,087,101 $99,027,105
7 Cowboys $17,528,662 $1,934,812 $755,765 $54,923,758 $2,109,205 $2,300,000 $1,718,005 $98,874,092
8 Badgers $26,936,910 $0 $330,000 $18,777,294 $3,356,669 $5,660,555 $2,705,018 $95,118,124
9 Aggies $30,144,815 $0 $305,500 $28,341,873 $3,264,000 $0 $9,224,632 $92,476,146
10 Nittany Lions* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------$91,570,233
11 Tigers $21,991,623 $5,195,136 $106,289 $34,897,688 $0 $4,650,000 $6,079,271 $89,311,824
12 Bulldogs $18,716,327 $3,073,606 $1,966,874 $30,542,918 $0 $4,107,627 $8,315,014 $85,554,395
13 Tigers $28,519,228 $0 $1,498,466 $23,252,017 $0 $6,841,868 $2,345,902 $85,018,205
14 Fighting Irish* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $83,352,439
15 Jayhawks $17,630,120 $1,907,119 $135,500 $37,089,914 $1,976,277 $6,939,857 $3,107,370 $82,976,047
16 Hawkeyes $19,103,235 $1,487,795 $1,544,021 $21,404,864 $800,000 $1,500,000 $5,371,577 $81,515,865
17 Spartans $21,870,622 $0 $4,016,571 $19,501,782 $298,568 $829,600 $3,777,152 $81,390,686
18 Sooners $35,162,720 $150,000 $537,000 $13,255,316 $0 $209,125 $9,651,372 $77,098,008
19 Cardinal* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,661,466
20 Trojans* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $76,409,919
21 Cornhuskers $30,560,065 $0 $208,000 $16,410,663 $0 $3,908,483 $8,858,680 $75,492,884
22 Seminoles $13,393,780 $6,590,629 $2,132,221 $25,190,569 $0 $291,667 $12,284,211 $73,458,494
23 Wildcats $27,263,673 $568,996 $156,000 $11,980,590 $0 $7,512,601 $5,788,505 $71,727,243
24 Golden Gophers $20,361,691 $0 $225,240 $5,149,444 $4,241,212 $611,000 $6,025,620 $68,951,692
25 Blue Devils* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $67,820,335
26 Fighting Illini $14,296,494 $2,930,324 $1,304,500 $14,159,705 $1,272,372 $1,283,459 $4,582,018 $67,818,403
27 Gamecocks $20,821,727 $1,987,931 $310,000 $18,039,591 $0 $574,921 $2,983,978 $66,545,953
28 Razorbacks $28,645,905 $0 $19,309 $12,768,088 $1,518,452 $1,561,000 $2,279,843 $66,174,916
29 Tar Heels $17,861,212 $6,205,790 $1,825,440 $15,892,163 $0 $10,194,418 $2,653,080 $66,148,186
30 Bruins $22,402,565 $2,646,743 $3,587,023 $8,354,437 $210,000 $6,855,613 $7,744,834 $66,088,264
31 Hokies $17,486,754 $6,157,813 $236,231 $17,345,132 $367,642 $2,766,994 $1,453,744 $64,412,343
32 Cavaliers $14,895,325 $11,119,358 $1,556,651 $18,933,467 $0 $0 $3,561,647 $64,396,612
33 Golden Bears $15,481,732 $2,241,249 $2,063,356 $13,894,187 $5,209,697 $0 $6,373,873 $64,326,057
34 Boilermakers $17,596,957 $0 $1,091,710 $10,411,973 $0 $0 $5,058,518 $64,253,784
35 Eagles* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- $61,203,340
36 Huskies $22,556,942 $0 $1,609,393 $12,682,342 $1,849,894 $925,600 $6,589,490 $60,729,016
37 Terrapins $12,115,588 $8,601,302 $1,573,651 $12,612,828 $2,698,244 $0 $5,575,476 $59,624,100
38 Tigers $21,097,510 $1,501,216 $1,414,151 $14,109,137 $2,435,268 $777,500 $2,929,444 $59,180,652
39 Hoosiers $14,389,989 $0 $180,500 $9,848,448 $0 $0 $4,512,149 $57,155,333
40 Ducks $17,410,851 $0 $830,321 $18,347,181 $0 $2,674,268 $519,750 $56,623,901

Ive already explained how those numbers are misleading.
As Mark Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You sound very defensive when discussing this.....what is your interest....coach.....builder....financier?
I'll take the word of the professors and their extensive studies over yours.

You have stated your opinion. I actually have no dog in this hunt. I am a 78 year old retiree (for 27 years now), but I attack stupidity when I see it.You have explained nothing. You are an ignorant ass. BTW, that is not defense, it is frustrated offense directed at an idiot.

Why all the name calling if you have no dog in this hunt? Maybe you're just getting senile. Whatever....Ill trust the professors over you.

This is strange. DNSmith has put the numbers up. From your source Judith Grant Long has included the following: "Long’s analysis added costs such as those for land, infrastructure and lost tax revenue, while subtracting money that flows back to states or cities from revenue or rent payments."

So where the land has a commercial value but was owned by the state then that becomes added. The cost of infrastructure upgrades AROUND the stadiums are added even though they are only partially utilised by the stadium patrons and are used more by local traffic. Lost tax revenues...so getting nothing from nothing is better than getting nothing from something?? Is she an accountant? Actually she's an Assistant Prof and with that sort of cost adding then one would never build anything. Opportunity costs are NOT part of any Accounting Methods I've ever seen.

Your reliance on a SINGLE academic without critically looking at their methods is frankly not very adequate.

Greg

well I talked about 2 books by I believe 4 professors, not a "single academic". Ive seen some of these infrastructure upgrades AROUND stadiums that would not be at all necessary if the stadium was not built. I'm not an Accountant but I believe there are different methods for different needs,i.e. taxes, business determinations. Within taxation there are different methods. Opportunity costs should be considered when trying to make these kind of decisions

Yet the most important issue is, HOW MUCH PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE THE COSTS, TO INCLUDE OPPORTUNITY COSTS.

 

[haissem123]

What's your opinion on the morality of taking money from those who earned it and giving it to people who haven't? Not talking about people who cannot earn their own money but rather those who choose not to. And can you recommend any books or writings on the subject?

Seems to me basic self worth is at least in part a reflection on your independence. Or at least contributing something, your own labor or time to your family or community. This country does not like freeloaders, and while there is a certain amount of leeway in tough times like we're in now, at some point opinions change.

So are we morally right to redistribute somebody else's wealth or deny people support in an effort to incentivize them to be more productive members of society?

yes. We have a right to re evalutate the worth and wealth of those you say "earned it" at any time as it has been through out history. Now whether we want to wait till this has to be done in a violent revolution, as has been typical redistribution method, or through a more common sense approach of creating a maximum wage or percentage of total earnings of companies, governments etc... is yet to be seen. I still don't understand the lack of historical perspective and knowledge you all seem to have lost and therefore keep repeating. Our vanity keeps telling us that we should be working for ourselves and some of our lack of self worth tells us to work for the major benefit of a few that have chosen to be "A" type personalities and conquers of all around them. This has always proven to be detrimental and totally destructive to our planet and species. Two steps forward and ten steps back. It's time we chose a better way. It's not like we have a choice. Sorry about that.

 

[BluesLegend]

yes. We have a right to re evalutate the worth and wealth of those you say "earned it" at any time as it has been through out history. Now whether we want to wait till this has to be done in a violent revolution, as has been typical redistribution method, or through a more common sense approach of creating a maximum wage or percentage of total earnings of companies, governments etc... is yet to be seen. I still don't understand the lack of historical perspective and knowledge you all seem to have lost and therefore keep repeating. Our vanity keeps telling us that we should be working for ourselves and some of our lack of self worth tells us to work for the major benefit of a few that have chosen to be "A" type personalities and conquers of all around them. This has always proven to be detrimental and totally destructive to our planet and species. Two steps forward and ten steps back. It's time we chose a better way. It's not like we have a choice. Sorry about that.

You have no right to my wealth or earnings that's some communist crap right there. Here's an idea deadbeats get a freaking job and mind your own business and stop reaching for my wallet. Or hop a ship to China go live your communist dream working for the communist collective.

 

[kaz]

yes. We have a right to re evalutate the worth and wealth of those you say "earned it" at any time as it has been through out history

Why don't you guys like the term "Marxist" again, Comrade?

So if you are saying someone did not earn it, you can go to court and prove what crime they committed. Other than that, keep your greedy hands to yourself and out of other people's wallets.

 

[dnsmith35]

What's your opinion on the morality of taking money from those who earned it and giving it to people who haven't? Not talking about people who cannot earn their own money but rather those who choose not to. And can you recommend any books or writings on the subject?

Seems to me basic self worth is at least in part a reflection on your independence. Or at least contributing something, your own labor or time to your family or community. This country does not like freeloaders, and while there is a certain amount of leeway in tough times like we're in now, at some point opinions change.

So are we morally right to redistribute somebody else's wealth or deny people support in an effort to incentivize them to be more productive members of society?

yes. We have a right to re evalutate the worth and wealth of those you say "earned it" at any time as it has been through out history. Now whether we want to wait till this has to be done in a violent revolution, as has been typical redistribution method, or through a more common sense approach of creating a maximum wage or percentage of total earnings of companies, governments etc... is yet to be seen. I still don't understand the lack of historical perspective and knowledge you all seem to have lost and therefore keep repeating. Our vanity keeps telling us that we should be working for ourselves and some of our lack of self worth tells us to work for the major benefit of a few that have chosen to be "A" type personalities and conquers of all around them. This has always proven to be detrimental and totally destructive to our planet and species. Two steps forward and ten steps back. It's time we chose a better way. It's not like we have a choice. Sorry about that.

People earn money in different ways. The less wealthy toil at labor to feed their family. The most wealthy have worked to the point they need not work anymore. Wealth is then earned by investment. Most people earn what they get in one way or another and some do not produce sufficiently to earn their pittance.

 

[haissem123]

What's your opinion on the morality of taking money from those who earned it and giving it to people who haven't? Not talking about people who cannot earn their own money but rather those who choose not to. And can you recommend any books or writings on the subject?

Seems to me basic self worth is at least in part a reflection on your independence. Or at least contributing something, your own labor or time to your family or community. This country does not like freeloaders, and while there is a certain amount of leeway in tough times like we're in now, at some point opinions change.

So are we morally right to redistribute somebody else's wealth or deny people support in an effort to incentivize them to be more productive members of society?

yes. We have a right to re evalutate the worth and wealth of those you say "earned it" at any time as it has been through out history. Now whether we want to wait till this has to be done in a violent revolution, as has been typical redistribution method, or through a more common sense approach of creating a maximum wage or percentage of total earnings of companies, governments etc... is yet to be seen. I still don't understand the lack of historical perspective and knowledge you all seem to have lost and therefore keep repeating. Our vanity keeps telling us that we should be working for ourselves and some of our lack of self worth tells us to work for the major benefit of a few that have chosen to be "A" type personalities and conquers of all around them. This has always proven to be detrimental and totally destructive to our planet and species. Two steps forward and ten steps back. It's time we chose a better way. It's not like we have a choice. Sorry about that.

People earn money in different ways. The less wealthy toil at labor to feed their family. The most wealthy have worked to the point they need not work anymore. Wealth is then earned by investment. Most people earn what they get in one way or another and some do not produce sufficiently to earn their pittance.

when you "earn" your money by investing in companies that devalue your fellow humans to slave labor conditions, inhumane living conditions etc... you have only earned a select spot in hell as your world dies and flashes before your eyes and your last cry is 'my God, what have I done!" and we can change our mind but it can be too late.