Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq

[Gunny]

Ya--I lived there during 'Nam. I just like the absurdity of the "idea" You're right, the dems are now saddled with power that they have no idea what to do with. I'm eager to hear the excuses for why the can't change anything in Iraq when they have the power to do so. Probably something along the lines of " Bush messed it up so bad that it's impossible". Like that improves anything.

ITA with the blame Bush thing. That's a given.

I also agree about the Dems having power they don't know what to do with. They can't --as in don't have enough power -- to deliver on the promises they made. Last I checked, their little margin of power is not sufficient to override a Presidential veto.

It's a shell game. They'll push the legislation, Bush will veto it, and they'll go back to their constituents with the "well, I tried but Bush screwed us over" line. Both Clinton and Bush have used the same ploy, so it can't really be called a crime committed by one side only. "Business as usual" for bureaucratic fatasses is more like it.

Meanwhile, nothing will be accomplished, as usual.

 

[Annie]

as far as I've heard, Murtha was the only one to pick Okinawa out of his, hmm:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06176/700770-108.stm

Jack Kelly: John Murtha, muddled
'Redeploy' to Okinawa? The Bush-bashing Democrat reveals how little he knows about military matters

Sunday, June 25, 2006
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Rep. John Murtha, D-Johnstown, imagines himself to be the scourge of the hawks in the Bush administration. Many journalists do, too, because they keep inviting him to appear on talk shows.


So why were the targets of Rep. Murtha's wrath doubled over with laughter during his appearance last Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press"?

Mr. Murtha's newfound fame is a product of his call for immediate withdrawal from Iraq -- or, in the dishonest way he likes to phrase it, "redeployment" from Iraq.

Host Tim Russert asked Mr. Murtha to respond to a question that White House political guru Karl Rove had asked rhetorically in a recent speech.

After noting that Rep. Murtha has called for U.S. troops to "get out of Iraq and go to another country," Mr. Rove asked: "What country would take us? What country would say after the United States cut and run from Iraq, what country in the Middle East would say 'Yeah, paint a big target on our back and then you'll cut and run from us?' "

Mr. Murtha named Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain, three small countries where U.S. troops were based during the march on Baghdad, but then added: "We can go to Okinawa. We can redeploy there almost instantly."

Mr. Russert, mindful of the fact that Okinawa, Japan, is 4,899 miles from Baghdad, offered Mr. Murtha an escape, in case he had misspoken. "But it would be tough to have a timely response from Okinawa," he said.

But Rep. Murtha dug himself in deeper. "When I say a timely response, you know, our fighters can fly from Okinawa very quickly," he said.

Mr. Murtha has been recommending redeployment to Okinawa ever since his rebirth as a dove last year, so what he said on "Meet the Press" was no slip of the tongue.

Let us be clear about the Murtha "strategy." It is insane. It would be easier to defend Germany from Chicago; Alaska from Miami, or Hawaii from Pittsburgh than to defend Iraq from Okinawa.

It would take 10 to 12 hours -- and six refuelings -- for F-16s to fly from Kadena AFB on Okinawa to Baghdad (assuming China and India would grant overflight rights, a dubious assumption). Mr. Murtha may regard this as "very quickly," but the Air Force does not.

As Bugs Bunny would say: "What a maroon!"

Another howler is Mr. Murtha's assumption that U.S. troops currently serving in Iraq would be welcome in Okinawa. For decades Okinawans have been seeking a reduction in the U.S. military presence, both because they covet the land on which U.S. military bases sit, and because of a long history of pacifism. The U.S. recently agreed to withdraw 7,000 Marines from Okinawa.

"There is no way we can win [the war in Iraq] militarily," Mr. Murtha said. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al-Qaida chieftain in Iraq until the Air Force liquefied his internal organs, had a different view:

"Here in Iraq, time is beginning to be of service to the American forces and harmful to the resistance," al-Zarqawi wrote in a document captured after his death.

The Bush administration has "no plan" for dealing with Iraq, Rep. Murtha asserted.

Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq's national security adviser, begs to differ. Writing in The Washington Post Tuesday, he said: "There is an unofficial 'road map' to foreign troop reductions that eventually will lead to total withdrawal of U.S. troops. This road map is based not just on a series of dates but, more important, on achievement of set objectives for restoring security in Iraq."

If you want to know the truth about Iraq, you should listen carefully to what Jack Murtha has to say -- and believe exactly the opposite.

Mr. Murtha's howlers about Okinawa obscured a more revealing comment he made earlier on CNN. He cited President Clinton's abrupt withdrawal from Somalia after 19 Rangers were killed there in 1993 as an example of the policy the U.S. should follow in Iraq.

Osama bin Laden gave the "change in direction" in Somalia Mr. Murtha applauds as the chief reason why he thought al-Qaida could strike the United States with impunity.

"After a few blows ... [the U.S.] rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace, dragging the bodies of its soldiers," bin Laden told ABC's John Miller in a 1998 interview.

Because he is a retired Marine Reserve colonel who served in Vietnam, Rep. Murtha is regarded as one of the Democrats' leading strategic thinkers. This, sadly, may be the case.

Mr. Murtha sounds less like a Marine colonel these days, and more like a male Cindy Sheehan. Has he become senile? Or was he always this stupid?

In either case, voters in his district should take a close look at Diana Irey, the Republican who hopes to put an end to the embarrassment to Pennsylvania that Jack Murtha has become.

 

[Gunny]

as far as I've heard, Murtha was the only one to pick Okinawa out of his, hmm:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06176/700770-108.stm

Because he is a retired Marine Reserve colonel who served in Vietnam, Rep. Murtha is regarded as one of the Democrats' leading strategic thinkers. This, sadly, may be the case.

I can only laugh my ass off at this statement. He's lost any credibility as a strategist with me.

As far as Okinawa goes, the Army "base" there is a radar site with a cleared compound of about 50-75 square yards, IIRC. Since III MEF currently occupies the Marine camps there, it'd be kinda' hard to throw I MEF in on top of them, since I MEF is a combination of any I, II, or III MEF units in the ME, and is about twice the size of an MEF by table of organization.

Kadena AFB might support the USAF, depending on what and how much assets they have in the area.

The Navy and Army would be screwed.

 

[Vastopol]

Victory in Iraq is defined as destabilization. We accomplished that in spades. Mission Accomplished!


destabilize
One entry found for destabilize.
Main Entry: de·sta·bi·lize
Pronunciation: (")dE-'stA-b&-"lIz
Function: transitive verb
1 : to make unstable
2 : to cause (as a government) to be incapable of functioning or surviving
- de·sta·bi·li·za·tion /(")dE-"stA-b&-l&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

SOURCE

Exhibit #2
ACB Policy Initiatives
(Source: IRMEP 2003)
Increase U.S. Congressional Support “Electrify and find support” of key U.S. congressional members
Strategic cooperation with U.S. on missile defense
Gain more support among members of Congress with little knowledge of Israel
Harness support to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv
Identify Israel with the U.S. and “western values”
Utilize Cold War rhetoric to make Israel’s case to the American people
“Peace for Peace” Palestinian Solution Eliminate movements toward a “comprehensive peace” and substitute with the “Peace for Peace” strategy
Stress “balance of power” as sole test of legitimacy, enforce agreements
Nurture alternatives to Arafat
Seek legitimization of “hot pursuit” of Palestinian militants
Eliminate “land for peace” concept, use negotiations only as a forum for communicating resolve
Establish a joint monitoring committee with the U.S. for measuring Palestinian compliance
Withhold U.S. aid to Palestinians
Promote Human Rights among Arabs to isolate Palestinians in Arab Constituencies
Legitimize 2000 year old historical land claim
Foment Arab recognition of Israel in exchange for peace
Contain, Destabilize, and Roll Back Regional Challengers Challenge Arab countries as “police states” lacking in legitimacy.
Fortify regional alliances. Work with Turkey and Jordan to insert hostile Arab tribes into Syria
Syria Publicly question Syrian legitimacy, assume treaties with Damascus are in bad faith
Contain Syria, strike select targets
Reject “land for peace” concept on the Golan Heights
Iraq Install a Hashemite monarchy in Iraq
Isolate and surround Syria with a friendly regime in Iraq
Lebanon Engage Syria, Iran and Iraq in Lebanon
“Wean” Lebanese Shiites from Iraq toward Jordan
Economic Reform Eliminate Social Zionism from the economy.
Reform the overall economy, cut taxes
Show maturity and economic self reliance from the United States
Eliminate need for defense by U.S. military forces
Remove U.S. aid leverage over Israel
Relegislate a free trade zone, sell off public lands and enterprises
Zionism Rebuild Zionism, rejuvenate the national ideal
“Shape the regional environment” in favor of Israel, “transcend foes” rather than contain them
Pre-emption as the preferred national defense strategy

And y'all thought we were over there to protect "American interests".

 

[Gunny]

Victory in Iraq is defined as destabilization. We accomplished that in spades. Mission Accomplished!


destabilize
One entry found for destabilize.
Main Entry: de·sta·bi·lize
Pronunciation: (")dE-'stA-b&-"lIz
Function: transitive verb
1 : to make unstable
2 : to cause (as a government) to be incapable of functioning or surviving
- de·sta·bi·li·za·tion /(")dE-"stA-b&-l&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

SOURCE

Victory in Iraq is defined as deposing Saddam Hussein, and allowing the people of Iraq to choose its own government.

Failure in Iraq is defined as not completing the mission simply because the pussies want to bail when the going gets tough.

 

[Vastopol]

Victory in Iraq is defined as deposing Saddam Hussein, and allowing the people of Iraq to choose its own government.

Sure if one believes all the propaganda coming out of the White House and corporate media without question, but the policy papers themselves (documents) paint a totally different picture altogether.

Failure in Iraq is defined as not completing the mission simply because the pussies want to bail when the going gets tough.

The "mission" as defined by the actual documents written by the framers of the "new middle east" policy call for the destabilization of Iraq...that mission has been a complete success. Mission Accomplished!

Or as Brzezinski put it..."...To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together." The Grand Chessboard page 40.

In other words divide and conquer. Is Iraq divided today? If so then the mission has been accomplished.

 

[Gunny]

Sure if one believes all the propaganda coming out of the White House and corporate media without question, but the policy papers themselves (documents) paint a totally different picture altogether.

Yeah, and let's forget what the troops themselves have to say about since. They hardly paint the bleak picture you bleeding hearts do.


The "mission" as defined by the actual documents written by the framers of the "new middle east" policy call for the destabilization of Iraq...that mission has been a complete success. Mission Accomplished!

Obviously, you are full of shit.

Or as Brzezinski put it..."...To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together." The Grand Chessboard page 40.

Great. Quoting a Commie to ascribe fabricated motives to US actions. Can't even imagine what led you to pull that conclusion out your ass but it would probably be best suited for you to shove it right back up there.

 

[Vastopol]

Great. Quoting a Commie to ascribe fabricated motives to US actions. Can't even imagine what led you to pull that conclusion out your ass but it would probably be best suited for you to shove it right back up there.

My conclusions are based on facts and the actual documents. And your's are based on what again?

BTW, Brzezinski has been a policy maker in several administrations, member of the CFR and founder of the Trilateral Commission. An internationalist extraordinaire no doubt working for the same people that brought us the Federal Reserve, which is neither a reserve nor federal but a way for private central banks to control a nations economy and therefore it's population. Unconstitutional and un American to say the least. So we agree about him and his policies, never the less our "leaders" have been following the policy directives of a shall we say foreign powers, CFR, Trilaterals for years. But now we're even doing Israel's dirty work for them.

 

[Gunny]

My conclusions are based on facts and the actual documents. And your's are based on what again?

BTW, Brzezinski has been a policy maker in several administrations, member of the CFR and founder of the Trilateral Commission. An internationalist extraordinaire no doubt working for the same people that brought us the Federal Reserve, which is neither a reserve nor federal but a way for private central banks to control a nations economy and therefore it's population. Unconstitutional and un American to say the least. So we agree about him and his policies, never the less our "leaders" have been following the policy directives of a shall we say foreign powers, CFR, Trilaterals for years. But now we're even doing Israel's dirty work for them.

I don't see anything but hot air, myself. If that's what you want to call "fact" and/or "actual documents," fine with me. Just don't blow that smell my way.