MacArthur...does the legend hold up?

[whitehall]

MacArthur should have been court-martialed twice. In fairness FDR may have pulled one of his famous political tricks when he called MacArthur out of retirement to become the commanding general of the area most likely to be attacked by the Japanese. Mac paid his dues as a hard charging officer in WW1 and rising in the ranks to become Chief of Staff and retiring honorably prior to WW2. Maybe he misunderstood the responsibility he had as commander of Philippine forces or maybe he was conned into thinking he was some sort of political envoy. He lived in a penthouse with his family in Manila and hobnobbed with the political elite. The legend gets muddy on Dec 8, 1941 the day after Pearl Harbor was attacked. Indications are that MacArthur was frozen with indicision and allowed his entire air force to be destroyed on the ground while parked wing to wing. Mac blamed subordinates for the disaster. The general who became known as "dugout Doug" by combat Troops was awarded the Medal of Honor in perhaps the shortest citation in the book. Some blather about "raising and training the Philippine army" was inserted into the citation to pad it and the crux of the "valor" part was the General allegedly shaking his fist at attacking Zeroes on Corrigador. Just before Mac was evacuated he instructed his subordinate General John "skinny" Wainwright to "fight to the death. Big words for a general who (was ordered to) abandon his troops to certain death. I'll save Korea for later.

 

[whitehall]

General MacArthur was over 70 years old when Korea broke out and yet Harry Truman took him away from his duties as emperor of Japan to once more fail as a front line commander.

 

[whitehall]

Mac didn't spend a single night with the Troops he commanded in Korea. He issued orders and relied on selective intel from questionable sources.

 

[mdn2000]

Korea, makes me sad, The Frozen Chosin, may they rest in peace.

 

[whitehall]

Korea was a victory thanks to MacArthur's brilliant "Inchon Landing" that outflanked the NK. UN forces retook Seul and even the NK capital of Pongyang. Any Military commander would have drawn a line from Wonson Harbor to Pongyang and called it a day. This is where the legend clicks in. Mac was in his 70's and his egomania might have become an acute mental condition. The Chinese warned the UN not to approach the Yalu river or they would enter the conflict. Truman let Mac walk into the biggest ambush in history at the Chosin. Thank God for leaders like Chesty Puller and OP Smith or it would have been a utter defeat instead of a stalemate and a humiliating truce.

 

[rightwinger]

MacArther was the most overrated General in WWII

Nimitz won the war in the Pacific while MacArther tied up valuable Pacific resources trying to fulfil his "I shall return" promise. He was a legend in his own mind more concerned with publicity and his legend than winning the war

 

[Trajan]

MacArther was the most overrated General in WWII

Nimitz won the war in the Pacific while MacArther tied up valuable Pacific resources trying to fulfil his "I shall return" promise. He was a legend in his own mind more concerned with publicity and his legend than winning the war

mark this day down.....


I agree.

 

[Englewood]

It may be that a number of high military live for the publicity the rank can give them? I sometimes feel that many of the higher ranks did not view the A bombs as did the enlisted pukes.

 

[whitehall]

It's hard to get beyond the MacArthur myth. Why he was chosen to receive the Japanese surrender is anybody's guess. Maybe it was a Hollywood moment and Admirals Nimitz and Halsey didn't have the right charisma or stage presence for the big show on the Missouri. . Truman was in awe of MacArthur since they were both officers in WW1 and probably a little bit afraid of him. MacArthur almost scored the GOP nomination for president but Ike won out after WW2 Pacific Vets allegedly made their opinion known about Mac. Mac ran as an independent in the 1952 election knowing that he would siphon votes from Ike but Ike won the election handily.

 

[Picaro]

MacArthur came from a politically connected family, and his mother lobbied hard on his behalf. He did have the sense to keep a very competent staff around him, so he wasn't stupid. As for Inchon, we had been there and successfully done a landing before, with U.S. Marines making landings there in the past,so that wasn't the big 'crap shoot' it was made out to be, but still risky nonetheless. He was the obvious choice early on due to his long experience in the Phillipines for a command there. I don't see any General doing well there early on, so outside a couple of unpopular decisions I cut him some slack there. But it's true Halsey and Nimitz were better strategic thinkers.

As for re-taking the Philippines, that was a political necessity and I don't' fault that choice; was good for both morale and the Fillipino people, who as far as my father and an uncle who fought there were concerned should have been offered statehood; contrary to later commie propaganda the majority of the regular people were very pro-American and would have made great citizens and they fought well.

Along with Inchon there should have been another landing on the other side of the peninsula, at the narrowest part, and that line is where our advance should have stopped, in that shortest point of width. Truman was dead on right to sack him; our Presidents are out Top Commanders in Chief for very very good reasons, and screw whether or not the military likes that. They never will so sense in caring about it.

As for the Army's 'Good Old Boy' system as it was back then, contrast MacArthur with Patton, also a silver spoon baby and politically connected family, who lobbied hard to get Eisenhower leap-frogged over his own and many others' heads, submersing his own giant ego for the good of the whole war effort. One was certainly of a much stronger character than the other, and also saved Roosevelt a lot of problems in the process.

 

[Picaro]

It may be that a number of high military live for the publicity the rank can give them? I sometimes feel that many of the higher ranks did not view the A bombs as did the enlisted pukes.

I think many didn't like it because it made the Air Force far more important than their own branches strategically, and they were right; the Air Force soon broke away from the Army and it wasn't long before it was the darling of the Services along with the Navy and its carriers. Now the Air force will see themselves being marginalized by drones and missile advances. Pilots are a waste of space and weight, and severely limit the capabilities of aircraft.

We now have a population 3 times as large, but a military under a million.

 

[whitehall]

MacArthur came from a politically connected family, and his mother lobbied hard on his behalf. He did have the sense to keep a very competent staff around him, so he wasn't stupid. As for Inchon, we had been there and successfully done a landing before, with U.S. Marines making landings there in the past,so that wasn't the big 'crap shoot' it was made out to be, but still risky nonetheless. He was the obvious choice early on due to his long experience in the Phillipines for a command there. I don't see any General doing well there early on, so outside a couple of unpopular decisions I cut him some slack there. But it's true Halsey and Nimitz were better strategic thinkers.

As for re-taking the Philippines, that was a political necessity and I don't' fault that choice; was good for both morale and the Fillipino people, who as far as my father and an uncle who fought there were concerned should have been offered statehood; contrary to later commie propaganda the majority of the regular people were very pro-American and would have made great citizens and they fought well.

Along with Inchon there should have been another landing on the other side of the peninsula, at the narrowest part, and that line is where our advance should have stopped, in that shortest point of width. Truman was dead on right to sack him; our Presidents are out Top Commanders in Chief for very very good reasons, and screw whether or not the military likes that. They never will so sense in caring about it.

As for the Army's 'Good Old Boy' system as it was back then, contrast MacArthur with Patton, also a silver spoon baby and politically connected family, who lobbied hard to get Eisenhower leap-frogged over his own and many others' heads, submersing his own giant ego for the good of the whole war effort. One was certainly of a much stronger character than the other, and also saved Roosevelt a lot of problems in the process.

Inchon is a good point. Even at an advanced age Mac was capable of strategic planning. Inchon cut the NK supply lines and US forces recaptured Seoul and even Pyong Yang. The Korean war was over and the N.K. had been humiliated....but wait. Surely Truman had enough sense not to expand the mission especially when the Red Chinese vowed to enter the conflict if US forces approached the Yalu river. It's alleged that MacArthur made crazy statements like "pissing in the Yalu" but Truman kept him on and ill equipped U.S. Troops entered a new phase that made no sense. The media would never criticize either MacArthur or Truman so they walked away and they insulted the Troops by labeling the conflict the "forgotten war".

 

[harmonica]

MacArthur should have been court-martialed twice. In fairness FDR may have pulled one of his famous political tricks when he called MacArthur out of retirement to become the commanding general of the area most likely to be attacked by the Japanese. Mac paid his dues as a hard charging officer in WW1 and rising in the ranks to become Chief of Staff and retiring honorably prior to WW2. Maybe he misunderstood the responsibility he had as commander of Philippine forces or maybe he was conned into thinking he was some sort of political envoy. He lived in a penthouse with his family in Manila and hobnobbed with the political elite. The legend gets muddy on Dec 8, 1941 the day after Pearl Harbor was attacked. Indications are that MacArthur was frozen with indicision and allowed his entire air force to be destroyed on the ground while parked wing to wing. Mac blamed subordinates for the disaster. The general who became known as "dugout Doug" by combat Troops was awarded the Medal of Honor in perhaps the shortest citation in the book. Some blather about "raising and training the Philippine army" was inserted into the citation to pad it and the crux of the "valor" part was the General allegedly shaking his fist at attacking Zeroes on Corrigador. Just before Mac was evacuated he instructed his subordinate General John "skinny" Wainwright to "fight to the death. Big words for a general who (was ordered to) abandon his troops to certain death. I'll save Korea for later.

he FKd up in the Philippines and then an even BIGGER fk up in Korea
1.there was a lot of evidence the Chinese would get involved if we crossed the parallel
2. USMC General Smith knew it was asking too much for the Allied forces to operate in that weather and terrain
3. lowly Sergeants and Majors knew the terrain was great for defense and terrible for offense--especially a mechanized military
4. Mac said air would keep the Chinese out and/or negated

 

[harmonica]

Korea, makes me sad, The Frozen Chosin, may they rest in peace.

My dad fought there..he was lucky--got shot!! -- in the leg and flew out of Hagaru

 

[harmonica]

..the big deal was stringing out the forces up to the Yalu---as opposed to the USMC keeping the unit together ..Mac and Almond wanted the USMC to rush to the Yalu...the USMC gave the Chinese an a$$ whooping....so much so, that those forces could not be used in the next offensive...but the X Corps did get kicked off the peninsula

 

[Picaro]

MacArthur came from a politically connected family, and his mother lobbied hard on his behalf. He did have the sense to keep a very competent staff around him, so he wasn't stupid. As for Inchon, we had been there and successfully done a landing before, with U.S. Marines making landings there in the past,so that wasn't the big 'crap shoot' it was made out to be, but still risky nonetheless. He was the obvious choice early on due to his long experience in the Phillipines for a command there. I don't see any General doing well there early on, so outside a couple of unpopular decisions I cut him some slack there. But it's true Halsey and Nimitz were better strategic thinkers.

As for re-taking the Philippines, that was a political necessity and I don't' fault that choice; was good for both morale and the Fillipino people, who as far as my father and an uncle who fought there were concerned should have been offered statehood; contrary to later commie propaganda the majority of the regular people were very pro-American and would have made great citizens and they fought well.

Along with Inchon there should have been another landing on the other side of the peninsula, at the narrowest part, and that line is where our advance should have stopped, in that shortest point of width. Truman was dead on right to sack him; our Presidents are out Top Commanders in Chief for very very good reasons, and screw whether or not the military likes that. They never will so sense in caring about it.

As for the Army's 'Good Old Boy' system as it was back then, contrast MacArthur with Patton, also a silver spoon baby and politically connected family, who lobbied hard to get Eisenhower leap-frogged over his own and many others' heads, submersing his own giant ego for the good of the whole war effort. One was certainly of a much stronger character than the other, and also saved Roosevelt a lot of problems in the process.

Inchon is a good point. Even at an advanced age Mac was capable of strategic planning. Inchon cut the NK supply lines and US forces recaptured Seoul and even Pyong Yang. The Korean war was over and the N.K. had been humiliated....but wait. Surely Truman had enough sense not to expand the mission especially when the Red Chinese vowed to enter the conflict if US forces approached the Yalu river. It's alleged that MacArthur made crazy statements like "pissing in the Yalu" but Truman kept him on and ill equipped U.S. Troops entered a new phase that made no sense. The media would never criticize either MacArthur or Truman so they walked away and they insulted the Troops by labeling the conflict the "forgotten war".

Also at the time we only had four grossly under-manned divisions in Asia, in Japan mostly, and only around 600,000 in the entire U.S. military at all, with most of those in Europe. Everybody likes to whine about how bad we did, but looking at the numbers it's the Chinese and North Koreans who should be embarrassed, not us, even with MacArthur's overreaching.

 

[whitehall]

MacArthur came from a politically connected family, and his mother lobbied hard on his behalf. He did have the sense to keep a very competent staff around him, so he wasn't stupid. As for Inchon, we had been there and successfully done a landing before, with U.S. Marines making landings there in the past,so that wasn't the big 'crap shoot' it was made out to be, but still risky nonetheless. He was the obvious choice early on due to his long experience in the Phillipines for a command there. I don't see any General doing well there early on, so outside a couple of unpopular decisions I cut him some slack there. But it's true Halsey and Nimitz were better strategic thinkers.

As for re-taking the Philippines, that was a political necessity and I don't' fault that choice; was good for both morale and the Fillipino people, who as far as my father and an uncle who fought there were concerned should have been offered statehood; contrary to later commie propaganda the majority of the regular people were very pro-American and would have made great citizens and they fought well.

Along with Inchon there should have been another landing on the other side of the peninsula, at the narrowest part, and that line is where our advance should have stopped, in that shortest point of width. Truman was dead on right to sack him; our Presidents are out Top Commanders in Chief for very very good reasons, and screw whether or not the military likes that. They never will so sense in caring about it.

As for the Army's 'Good Old Boy' system as it was back then, contrast MacArthur with Patton, also a silver spoon baby and politically connected family, who lobbied hard to get Eisenhower leap-frogged over his own and many others' heads, submersing his own giant ego for the good of the whole war effort. One was certainly of a much stronger character than the other, and also saved Roosevelt a lot of problems in the process.

Inchon is a good point. Even at an advanced age Mac was capable of strategic planning. Inchon cut the NK supply lines and US forces recaptured Seoul and even Pyong Yang. The Korean war was over and the N.K. had been humiliated....but wait. Surely Truman had enough sense not to expand the mission especially when the Red Chinese vowed to enter the conflict if US forces approached the Yalu river. It's alleged that MacArthur made crazy statements like "pissing in the Yalu" but Truman kept him on and ill equipped U.S. Troops entered a new phase that made no sense. The media would never criticize either MacArthur or Truman so they walked away and they insulted the Troops by labeling the conflict the "forgotten war".

Also at the time we only had four grossly under-manned divisions in Asia, in Japan mostly, and only around 600,000 in the entire U.S. military at all, with most of those in Europe. Everybody likes to whine about how bad we did, but looking at the numbers it's the Chinese and North Koreans who should be embarrassed, not us, even with MacArthur's overreaching.

The American forces did relatively well because Marine Generals like O.P. Smith and Chesty Puller didn't trust Mac's idiot intel officer Ned Almond and Marines refused to walk into too many freaking ambushes set up by the Chi-Coms when Almond only wanted to send good news to MacArthur. Korea was a tragic setup generated by an aging WW1 veteran who never spent a single night in Korea and a timid president who didn't have the balls to keep the mission from expanding even when the Chi-Coms promised to enter the war.