Liberal antisemitism etc in Quebec

[MrMax]

Just because you say so doesn't make it true.

If you believe Quebec can make it on its own as it is, prove it.

Independent Quebec would be world?s 27th-richest country, Marceau says

What convinces you that the mere size of an economy determines its sustainability?

There are about 200 economies under that, that survived, why shouldn't Quebec?

 

[MHunterB]

Anti-Semitism comes in liberal and conservative flavors.

And the just plain 'wedged', as exemplified below:

"The problem is Judaism takes this one step too far in basically treating people as if they're guilty before proven innocent. It denies the diversity of human nature on an individual level, expecting people to be practically normal in the judgment of people's good works to represent a predestined calling which the chosen people can obviously detect. In reality, Judaism turns society into perpetual paranoia where everyone's judging each other in a balance of powers, so those who are goodwilling in refusing to bully others around end up getting bullied. That is those who refuse to judge end up getting judged."

For someone who's entirely ignorant of Judaism, Daktoria certainly has a lot to say about it..... I was unaware that either Judaism or Catholicism were *political* systems: I've always thought of them as religions.

Oh, and since Judaism is not a 'race' - anyone can be a 'chosen people' if they wish to join. It's no worse than the Catholics calling themselves 'the people of GOD' (which they do in the liturgy)........

Anyway, there aren't enough Jews in anyplace outside of Israel to have any real effect on the political system - even IF that poster's words bore any resemblance to facts and reality regarding Judaism.

Although I suppose it's POSSIBLE that Jews in Canada have an entirely different practice of religion than American Jews do, and that somehow in all the years I've been observing the world political scene nobody has ever commented upon that total disconnect before.....but I do not think it's very likely at all.

 

[Daktoria]

Funny how the Chosen People lack a doctrine that sends all non-Jews to eternal hell.

That's rather easy when the recognition of good works allows for a denial of eternalism.

"Good works" are subjectively defined according to people's emotions which denies people's internal sense of time in thinking about how to get things done. Therefore, Jews can identify people who are talented and goodwilling, and tell them they're not entitled to respect unless they do what others want. Until then, they haven't performed sufficient good works to represent a predestined calling.

It's kind of like how the bully on the schoolyard playground tells the nerd, "Do my homework or I'm going to beat you up and take your lunch money." You don't need to threaten eternal hell when the present as awful, especially if you make the present awful again and again.

Simply put, Jews don't need to threaten people with an eternal hell when they just make people's lives hell one moment after the next in the present.

The above makes absolutely no sense. Judaism does not suggest that 'good works' are of any salvific value - nor is there any 'predestination' in Judaism.

The second and third paragraphs are simply anti-Jewish ravings ..........

...so what does it mean to be the "chosen people" if it has nothing to do with good works or predestined callings?

For example, what's the relevance of being "goyim"?

 

[Daktoria]

Independent Quebec would be world?s 27th-richest country, Marceau says

What convinces you that the mere size of an economy determines its sustainability?

There are about 200 economies under that, that survived, why shouldn't Quebec?

What convinces you those economies survived independently?

 

[MHunterB]

That's rather easy when the recognition of good works allows for a denial of eternalism.

"Good works" are subjectively defined according to people's emotions which denies people's internal sense of time in thinking about how to get things done. Therefore, Jews can identify people who are talented and goodwilling, and tell them they're not entitled to respect unless they do what others want. Until then, they haven't performed sufficient good works to represent a predestined calling.

It's kind of like how the bully on the schoolyard playground tells the nerd, "Do my homework or I'm going to beat you up and take your lunch money." You don't need to threaten eternal hell when the present as awful, especially if you make the present awful again and again.

Simply put, Jews don't need to threaten people with an eternal hell when they just make people's lives hell one moment after the next in the present.

The above makes absolutely no sense. Judaism does not suggest that 'good works' are of any salvific value - nor is there any 'predestination' in Judaism.

The second and third paragraphs are simply anti-Jewish ravings ..........

...so what does it mean to be the "chosen people" if it has nothing to do with good works or predestined callings?

For example, what's the relevance of being "goyim"?

The only importance of 'chosen' is that YHVH chose the Jews to receive the Sinai Covenant. In reading the Torah, one comes across references to other Covenants with other peoples - so it's only logical to assume that YHVH had different 'jobs' for different peoples.... The Torah does not claim to be a complete history of YHVH's dealings with any people, although it is focused on His dealings with the (spiritual) descendants of the Jewish patriarchs.

"Goyim" is simply the Hebrew version of the Latin 'gens' from which we derive 'gentile' and 'genus': it means simply 'people' or 'nation' in Torah and is not inherently a pejorative.

In the famous passage from Michah ch 4: "They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more " - the word used in the Hebrew text for 'nation' is 'goy'

This is duplicated in Isaiah 2:4: " They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

And it's also a popular song: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYRxPVio5s]Lo Yisa Goy J Settel - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MrMax]

What convinces you that the mere size of an economy determines its sustainability?

There are about 200 economies under that, that survived, why shouldn't Quebec?

What convinces you those economies survived independently?

No economy can survive in a vacuum. Now you know.

 

[Daktoria]

The above makes absolutely no sense. Judaism does not suggest that 'good works' are of any salvific value - nor is there any 'predestination' in Judaism.

The second and third paragraphs are simply anti-Jewish ravings ..........

...so what does it mean to be the "chosen people" if it has nothing to do with good works or predestined callings?

For example, what's the relevance of being "goyim"?

The only importance of 'chosen' is that YHVH chose the Jews to receive the Sinai Covenant. In reading the Torah, one comes across references to other Covenants with other peoples - so it's only logical to assume that YHVH had different 'jobs' for different peoples.... The Torah does not claim to be a complete history of YHVH's dealings with any people, although it is focused on His dealings with the (spiritual) descendants of the Jewish patriarchs.

"Goyim" is simply the Hebrew version of the Latin 'gens' from which we derive 'gentile' and 'genus': it means simply 'people' or 'nation' in Torah and is not inherently a pejorative.

In the famous passage from Michah ch 4: "They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more " - the word used in the Hebrew text for 'nation' is 'goy'

This is duplicated in Isaiah 2:4: " They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

And it's also a popular song: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYRxPVio5s]Lo Yisa Goy J Settel - YouTube[/ame]

...so put simply, Jews believe in a caste system, and those who aren't liked in society are obligated to endure menial labor rather than being entitled to manage their own lives. Those who don't like them can simply say it's practically obvious they're not chosen by God to do something even though what's practical is subjective. Therefore, their property rights can be neglected.

Why is it no surprise that Jews organize themselves in kibbutzes and bunds as well as sympathize with Indian foreign policy?

 

[Daktoria]

There are about 200 economies under that, that survived, why shouldn't Quebec?

What convinces you those economies survived independently?

No economy can survive in a vacuum. Now you know.

Does mankind on Earth trade with other civilizations on other planets?

The definition of an "economy" is subject to the level of magnification you look at. Don't forget the great vacuum of outer space.

Likewise, there's a difference between a symbiotic relationship versus a parasite-host relationship.

In fact, if you read the source you mentioned before:

Coiteux noted that Quebec accounts for 23 per cent of Canada’s population, but only 20 per cent of gross domestic product and 27 per cent of public spending.

Quebec is a parasite. It produces less than its fair share, and consumes more than its fair share.

 

[MHunterB]

...so what does it mean to be the "chosen people" if it has nothing to do with good works or predestined callings?

For example, what's the relevance of being "goyim"?

The only importance of 'chosen' is that YHVH chose the Jews to receive the Sinai Covenant. In reading the Torah, one comes across references to other Covenants with other peoples - so it's only logical to assume that YHVH had different 'jobs' for different peoples.... The Torah does not claim to be a complete history of YHVH's dealings with any people, although it is focused on His dealings with the (spiritual) descendants of the Jewish patriarchs.

"Goyim" is simply the Hebrew version of the Latin 'gens' from which we derive 'gentile' and 'genus': it means simply 'people' or 'nation' in Torah and is not inherently a pejorative.

In the famous passage from Michah ch 4: "They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more " - the word used in the Hebrew text for 'nation' is 'goy'

This is duplicated in Isaiah 2:4: " They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

And it's also a popular song: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYRxPVio5s]Lo Yisa Goy J Settel - YouTube[/ame]

...so put simply, Jews believe in a caste system, and those who aren't liked in society are obligated to endure menial labor rather than being entitled to manage their own lives. Those who don't like them can simply say it's practically obvious they're not chosen by God to do something even though what's practical is subjective. Therefore, their property rights can be neglected.

Why is it no surprise that Jews organize themselves in kibbutzes and bunds as well as sympathize with Indian foreign policy?

That is NOT 'put simply': that is put WRONGLY.

"Different 'jobs' for different peoples" is my wording. Jews have A 'job' as spelled out in the Sinai Covenant. YHVH may - or may not! - have assigned other peoples the same tasks, but Torah does not discuss those other Covenants, so a Jew doesn't claim to know anything about their contents. WE didn't need to know, or He would have told us.

To be distinct and unique does NOT mean to be 'better' or 'worse': Is vanilla ice cream 'better' than chocolate? Are they both 'better' than strawberry? WHO CARES? It's all good!!!!!

Judaism is about YHVH's relationship with the Jewish people. It is NOT about 'saving' non-Jewish people. or 'using' non-Jewish people. It is NOT about non-Jewish people - although it is certainly not closed to anyone who wishes to join.

Jews were chosen for the Sinai Covenant. Other peoples were evidently chosen for other Covenants: the Torah does not discuss the details of those Covenants. So there is NO WAY that Jews could have a 'caste system' as you are thinking of it: we do not claim to have any knowledge of the nature of His relationships with other peoples. For a Jew to suggest ANYTHING about GOD's choices for other people is against Torah completely.

There is not only no support for those ideas you attribute to Jews in Torah: those ideas are absolutely AGAINST Torah, and to seek to do any such thing as that would see those Jews shunned completely (we don't really 'excommunicate').

The Jews who organized themselves in kibbutzim were socialists following a socialist ideal: they were very seldom religious at all. And kibbutzim are only PART of the Israeli landscape: I know of no kibbutzim outside of Israel.

Your words about 'property rights' are bizarre and there is no support for such a claim in Torah.

I would suggest that the 'bonding' of Israel and India has far more to do with the FACT that neither Judaism nor Hinduism makes any claim to be 'the One True TRUTH' for everyone - as opposed to Christianity and Islam - than anything else.

Generally, the best way to understand religions is to regard each as sui generis and learn the basics of each one *before* rushing into 'conclusions' about perceived similarities between them..... Many of the most important concepts - salvation, prophet, prophesy, idolatry - do not have the same meaning from one religion to the next.