Lest we forget...

So we have a number of different reports all based off unsubstantiated claims

I think we should change "lest we forget" to "best we forget





Oh and I just followed the response links. I'll try and go back and see if I can find the other link you suggest.

However.

I don't think we have anything resembling an equivalence here. Firstly is there any other incident showing where this type of thing is a trend. Or is it one single incident committed by foreign nationals ?

The claims are just wild enough that they just seem a little beyond believability, that and you seem to be struggling to substantiate them.
 
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This Saturday was the 68th Anniversary of the Deir Yassin massacre. As no-one's opened a thread about it I thought I would.
"The massacre came in spite of Deir Yassin resident's efforts to maintain positive relations with new Jewish neighbors, including the signing of pact that was approved by Haganah, a main Zionist paramilitary organization during the British Mandate of Palestine." Palestinians mark 68th anniversary of Deir Yassin massacre

Thanks for this. Historical context is always appreciated. You can't study history without a context. It was only fairly recently I learned of the King David Hotel bombing, which will be 70 years this summer. History books seem to have a knack for finding something crucial to ignore.

the difference is, the the king david hotel was the base for british military operations. and the jews told the brits to get out of the hotel so they wouldn't be hurt.

the deir yassin attacks were allegedly committed by irgun (not haganah) in retaliation for blockading the jews. that said, ultimately the hagganah purportedly apologized on behalf of the jewish population and even wrote a formal letter of apology to jordan.

you ever see an arab group apologize for attacking jews?

don't encourage terrorist supporters. and don't ever believe anything from arab sources about israel.
 
This Saturday was the 68th Anniversary of the Deir Yassin massacre. As no-one's opened a thread about it I thought I would.
"The massacre came in spite of Deir Yassin resident's efforts to maintain positive relations with new Jewish neighbors, including the signing of pact that was approved by Haganah, a main Zionist paramilitary organization during the British Mandate of Palestine." Palestinians mark 68th anniversary of Deir Yassin massacre

Thanks for this. Historical context is always appreciated. You can't study history without a context. It was only fairly recently I learned of the King David Hotel bombing, which will be 70 years this summer. History books seem to have a knack for finding something crucial to ignore.

the difference is, the the king david hotel was the base for british military operations. and the jews told the brits to get out of the hotel so they wouldn't be hurt.

the deir yassin attacks were allegedly committed by irgun (not haganah) in retaliation for blockading the jews. that said, ultimately the hagganah purportedly apologized on behalf of the jewish population and even wrote a formal letter of apology to jordan.

you ever see an arab group apologize for attacking jews?

don't encourage terrorist supporters. and don't ever believe anything from arab sources about israel.
Too Little Too Late I'm Afraid.....You do the Crime you should do the Time
 
Why would a hill overlooking the major highway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv NOT be a military objective during the siege of Jerusalem?

One reason would be that Deir Yassin had had a pact with both Haganah and Givat Shaul and there is no evidence given that they violated it.

The designation of whether or not a particular place is of military value is not the existence of a peace pact between two nearby villages.

Deir Yassin was of military value because it could serve as a potential base for attacks on the main highway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. The INTENT of the Arab forces was to cut off supplies, military reinforcements and the majority of the Jewish population from Jerusalem. Deir Yassin, and other nearby locations had, in fact, been used to attack convoys of supplies in the previous days and months. It was also considered, by the Jewish forces, as a place to build an airstrip. Thus it was important to ensure it did not fall into the hands of enemy forces.

And we know that enemy forces were attempting to do just that -- use it as a base to attack the highway to Jerusalem. That is part of the reason the peace pact was made in January in the first place -- the agreement spelled out that those from Deir Yassin would not permit Arab forces to set up shop there. There is a general agreement that no Arab forces were within the village at the time of the attack -- but there is no dispute that Arab forces had been in the village in the days prior to and had requested repeatedly to set up shop there. There are police records of the villagers of Deir Yassin calling the police forces to rid themselves of the Arab forces.

Further to that, there are the winds of war. The intent of the peace pact between the two neighboring villages was to avoid conflict. Once they realized conflict was upon them and likely unavoidable the villagers of Deir Yassin made preparations for that -- including gathering weapons and training and digging ditches and creating a town watch. They may have wanted to avoid the war (as the residents of Gival Shaul did), but that may not have been possible.

My point being that the peace pact alone does not unmake the value of military objective. Your claim that the village held NO military objective is proven false.

Did you want to argue this specific point further, or shall we move on?
 
This Saturday was the 68th Anniversary of the Deir Yassin massacre. As no-one's opened a thread about it I thought I would.
"The massacre came in spite of Deir Yassin resident's efforts to maintain positive relations with new Jewish neighbors, including the signing of pact that was approved by Haganah, a main Zionist paramilitary organization during the British Mandate of Palestine." Palestinians mark 68th anniversary of Deir Yassin massacre

Thanks for this. Historical context is always appreciated. You can't study history without a context. It was only fairly recently I learned of the King David Hotel bombing, which will be 70 years this summer. History books seem to have a knack for finding something crucial to ignore.

the difference is, the the king david hotel was the base for british military operations. and the jews told the brits to get out of the hotel so they wouldn't be hurt.

the deir yassin attacks were allegedly committed by irgun (not haganah) in retaliation for blockading the jews. that said, ultimately the hagganah purportedly apologized on behalf of the jewish population and even wrote a formal letter of apology to jordan.

you ever see an arab group apologize for attacking jews?

don't encourage terrorist supporters. and don't ever believe anything from arab sources about israel.

Actually I'm neither "encouraging" nor "believing" anything. I'm certainly not qualified to do that. I'm just noting that there is history out there that needs to be known as context for the present. And in response to poster above, that we don't get to cherrypick which histories we like and discredit those we don't. Far as I know Wikipedia is an international source, not "Arab".

I don't believe there is such a thing as any historical event that it's a good thing to not know.
 
We damn sure should forget

the whole story line is one huge pile of BS

Not one shred of coroberated evidnec ehas been offiored

thw whole thing is a corsk co shit
 
BEST WE FORGET

OK, if you are so keen to forget massacres....

tumblr_n3m53vNmNR1sg8qugo1_1280.jpg


...let's forget them all.
 
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As for rape and the IDF, this is what Professor Pappe has to say on the subject:

"We have three kinds of sources that report on rape, and thus know that severe cases of rape did take place. It remains more difficult to form an idea of how many women and young girls were victimised by Jewish troops in this way. Our first source is the international organisations such as the UN and the Red Cross.

They never submitted a collective report, but we do have short and concise accounts of individual cases. Thus, for instance, very soon after Jaffa was taken, a Red Cross official, de Meuron, reported how Jewish soldiers had raped a girl and killed her brother. He remarked in general that as Palestinian men were taken away as prisoners, their women were left at the mercy of the Israelis.

Yitzhak Chizik wrote to Kaplan in the letter mentioned above: ‘And about the rapes, Sir, you probably have already heard.’ In an earlier letter to Ben-Gurion, Chizik reported how ‘a group of soldiers [had] burst into a house, killed the father, injured the mother and raped the daughter.’

We know of course more about cases in places where outside observers were present, but this does not mean women were not raped elsewhere. Another Red Cross report tells of a horrific incident that began on 9 December 1948 when two Jewish soldiers burst into the house of al-Hajj Suleiman Daud, who had been expelled with his family to Shaqara. The soldiers hit his wife and kidnapped his eighteen-year-old daughter. Seventeen days later the father was able to get hold of an Israeli lieutenant, to whom he protested. The rapists appeared to belong to Brigade Seven. It is impossible to know what exactly happened in those seventeen days before the girl was set free; the worst may be presumed. (IDF Archives, 50/121, File 226, report by Menahem Ben-Yossef, Platoon commander, Battalion 102, 26 December 1948.)

The second source is the Israeli archives, which only cover cases in which the rapists were brought to trial. David Ben-Gurion seems to have been informed about each case and entered them into his diary. Every few days he has a sub-section: ‘Rape Cases’. One of these records the incident Chizik had reported to him: ‘a case in Acre where soldiers wanted to rape a girl. They killed the father and wounded the mother, and the officers covered for them. At least one soldier raped the girl.’ (Ben-Gurion’s Diary, 5 July 1948.)

Jaffa seems to have been a hothouse for the cruelty and war crimes of the Israeli troops. One particular battalion, Battalion 3 – commanded by the same person who had been in charge when its soldiers committed massacres in Khisas and Sa‘sa, and cleansed Safad and its environs – was so savage in its behaviour that its soldiers were suspected of being involved in most of the rape cases in the city, and the High Command decided it best to withdraw them from the town. However, other units were no less guilty of molesting women in the first three to four months of the occupation.

The worst period was towards the end of the first truce (July 8) when even Ben-Gurion became so apprehensive about the pattern of behaviour that emerged among the soldiers in the occupied cities, especially the private looting and the rape cases, that he decided not to allow certain army units to enter Nazareth after his troops had taken the town during the ‘ten-day’ war. (Ben-Gurion’s Diary, 15 July 1948.)

Our third source is the oral history we have from both the victimisers and the victims. It is very difficult to get the facts in the former case and almost impossible, of course, in the latter. But their stories have already helped shed light on some of the most appalling and inhuman crimes in the war that Israel waged against the Palestinian people.

The perpetrators can only talk, it seems, shielded by the safe distance of years. This is how a particularly appalling case came to light just recently. On 12 August 1949, a platoon of soldiers in the Negev, based in Kibbutz Nirim not far from Beit Hanun, on the northern edge of today’s Gaza Strip, captured a twelve-year-old Palestinian girl and locked her up for the night in their military base near the kibbutz. For the next few days she became the platoon’s sex slave as the soldiers shaved her head, gang-raped her and in the end murdered her. Ben-Gurion lists this rape too in his diary but it was censored out by his editors. On 29 October 2003, the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz publicised the story based on the testimonies of the rapists: twenty-two soldiers had taken part in the barbaric torture and execution of the girl. When they were then brought to trial, the severest punishment the court handed down was a prison term of two years for the soldier who had done the actual killing.

Oral recollection also exposed cases of rape throughout the occupation of Palestine’s villages: from the village of Tantura in May, through the village of Qula in June, and ending with one story after another of abuse and rape in the villages seized during Operation Hiram. Many of the cases were corroborated by UN officials who interviewed a number of women from the villages who were willing to come forward and talk about their experiences.

When, many years later, some of these people were interviewed, it was obvious how difficult it still proved for the men and women from the village to talk about names and details in these cases, and the interviewers came away with the impression that they all knew more than they wished or were able to tell.

Eyewitnesses also reported the callous and humiliating way in which women were stripped of all their jewellery, to the very last item. The same women were then harassed physically by the soldiers, which in Tantura ended in rape. Here is how Najiah Ayyub described it: ‘I saw that the troops who encircled us tried to touch the women but were rejected by them. When they saw that the women would not surrender, they stopped. When we were on the beach, they took two women and tried to undress them, claiming they had to search the bodies.’ ("Tantura" Illan Pape)

Tradition, shame, and trauma are the cultural and psychological barriers that prevent us from gaining the fuller picture of the rape of Palestinian women within the general plunder Jewish troops wreaked with such ferocity in both rural and urban Palestine during 1948 and 1949. Perhaps in the fullness of time someone will be able to complete this chapter of the chronicle of Israel's Ethnic cleansing of Palestine."

http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/P/Pa/Pappe_Ilan_-_The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine.pdf
 
main source my ass.

I presented multiple sources.

Sounds like more terrorist supporters hasbara

The facts are simple, the massacre story is a lie.

Stories of mass rapes and the killing of children as they slept are wildly exaggerated

Its all just more Arab Muslim hasbara nonsense

The accusation includes mass rape and murder of children in their beds.

Can you substantiate any other incidence of any Judaic forces having been found unequivocally guilty of mass rape ?

Or of entering homes and killing dozens of children as they sleep ?

take your time ;--)

Again you might find one rogue soldier who's guilty of one or the other but mass rape and murder by entire Judiac oganizations ? , I call BS
'I Saw Fit to Remove Her From the World'
Newly revealed documents obtained by Haaretz tell the long-hidden story of what Ben-Gurion described as a 'horrific atrocity': In August 1949 an IDF unit caught a Bedouin girl, held her captive in a Negev outpost, gang-raped her, executed her at the order of the platoon commander and buried her in a shallow grave in the desert. Twenty soldiers who took part in the episode, including the platoon commander, were court-martialed and sent to prison.
read more: 'I saw fit to remove her from the world'

Thanks for finding the article, it helps corroborate what professor Pappe asserted in my post #. 115:)
 
The Kafr Qasim massacre took place in the Israeli Arab village of Kafr Qasim situated on the Green Line, at that time, the de facto border between Israel and the Jordanian West Bank on October 29, 1956. It was carried out by the Israel Border Police (Magav), who murdered Arab civilians returning from work during a curfew, imposed earlier in the day, on the eve of the Sinai war, of which they were unaware.[1] In total 48 people died, of which 19 were men, 6 were women and 23 were children aged 8–17. Arab sources usually give the death toll as 49, as they include the unborn child of one of the women.[2]

The border policemen who were involved in the shooting were brought to trial and found guilty and sentenced to prison terms, but all received pardons and were released in a year.[3] The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents).[4] The Israeli court found that the command to kill civilians was “blatantly illegal”.[5]

In December 2007, President of Israel Shimon Peres formally apologised for the massacre.
The new curfew regulations were imposed in the absence of the laborers, who were at work and ignorant of the new rules.[8] At 4.30 p.m., the mukhtar (mayor) of Kafr Qasim was informed of the new time. He asked what would happen to the about 400 villagers working outside the village in the fields that were not aware of the new time. An officer assured him that they would be taken care of. When word of the curfew change was sent, most returned immediately, but others did not.

Between 5 p.m. and 6:30 p.m., in nine separate shooting incidents, the platoon led by Lt. Gabriel Dahan that was stationed in Kafr Qasim all together killed nineteen men, six women, ten teenage boys (age 14-17), six girls (age 12-15), and seven young boys (age 8-13), who did not make it home before curfew.[9]One survivor, Jamal Farij, recalls arriving at the entrance to the village in a truck with 28 passengers:

'We talked to them. We asked if they wanted our identity cards. They didn't. Suddenly one of them said, 'Cut them down' - and they opened fire on us like a flood.'[10]

One Israeli soldier, Shalom Ofer, later admitted: 'We acted like Germans, automatically, we didn't think', but never expressed remorse or regret for his actions.[11]

The many injured were left unattended, and could not be succoured by their families because of the 24-hour curfew. The dead were collected and buried in a mass grave by Arabs, taken for that purpose, from the nearby village of Jaljuliya. When the curfew ended, the wounded were picked up from the streets and trucked to hospitals.
Kafr Qasim massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel does not target civilians






TRUE, but that does not mean that Jewish individuals don't. And this is where you fall flat on your face every time. You produce individual reports of this happening and claim that this is how all Jews act. Well after seeing Saddam raped and sodomised with a metal pole can I say that this is how all arab muslims act. Or after seeing Palestinians tenderising the bodies of two Jewish youths before eating them can I say this is how all Palestinians act.

Want some more examples of how ALL PALESTINIANS act based on the criteria you are using for ALL JEWS ?
 
As for rape and the IDF, this is what Professor Pappe has to say on the subject:

"We have three kinds of sources that report on rape, and thus know that severe cases of rape did take place. It remains more difficult to form an idea of how many women and young girls were victimised by Jewish troops in this way. Our first source is the international organisations such as the UN and the Red Cross.

They never submitted a collective report, but we do have short and concise accounts of individual cases. Thus, for instance, very soon after Jaffa was taken, a Red Cross official, de Meuron, reported how Jewish soldiers had raped a girl and killed her brother. He remarked in general that as Palestinian men were taken away as prisoners, their women were left at the mercy of the Israelis.

Yitzhak Chizik wrote to Kaplan in the letter mentioned above: ‘And about the rapes, Sir, you probably have already heard.’ In an earlier letter to Ben-Gurion, Chizik reported how ‘a group of soldiers [had] burst into a house, killed the father, injured the mother and raped the daughter.’

We know of course more about cases in places where outside observers were present, but this does not mean women were not raped elsewhere. Another Red Cross report tells of a horrific incident that began on 9 December 1948 when two Jewish soldiers burst into the house of al-Hajj Suleiman Daud, who had been expelled with his family to Shaqara. The soldiers hit his wife and kidnapped his eighteen-year-old daughter. Seventeen days later the father was able to get hold of an Israeli lieutenant, to whom he protested. The rapists appeared to belong to Brigade Seven. It is impossible to know what exactly happened in those seventeen days before the girl was set free; the worst may be presumed. (IDF Archives, 50/121, File 226, report by Menahem Ben-Yossef, Platoon commander, Battalion 102, 26 December 1948.)

The second source is the Israeli archives, which only cover cases in which the rapists were brought to trial. David Ben-Gurion seems to have been informed about each case and entered them into his diary. Every few days he has a sub-section: ‘Rape Cases’. One of these records the incident Chizik had reported to him: ‘a case in Acre where soldiers wanted to rape a girl. They killed the father and wounded the mother, and the officers covered for them. At least one soldier raped the girl.’ (Ben-Gurion’s Diary, 5 July 1948.)

Jaffa seems to have been a hothouse for the cruelty and war crimes of the Israeli troops. One particular battalion, Battalion 3 – commanded by the same person who had been in charge when its soldiers committed massacres in Khisas and Sa‘sa, and cleansed Safad and its environs – was so savage in its behaviour that its soldiers were suspected of being involved in most of the rape cases in the city, and the High Command decided it best to withdraw them from the town. However, other units were no less guilty of molesting women in the first three to four months of the occupation.

The worst period was towards the end of the first truce (July 8) when even Ben-Gurion became so apprehensive about the pattern of behaviour that emerged among the soldiers in the occupied cities, especially the private looting and the rape cases, that he decided not to allow certain army units to enter Nazareth after his troops had taken the town during the ‘ten-day’ war. (Ben-Gurion’s Diary, 15 July 1948.)

Our third source is the oral history we have from both the victimisers and the victims. It is very difficult to get the facts in the former case and almost impossible, of course, in the latter. But their stories have already helped shed light on some of the most appalling and inhuman crimes in the war that Israel waged against the Palestinian people.

The perpetrators can only talk, it seems, shielded by the safe distance of years. This is how a particularly appalling case came to light just recently. On 12 August 1949, a platoon of soldiers in the Negev, based in Kibbutz Nirim not far from Beit Hanun, on the northern edge of today’s Gaza Strip, captured a twelve-year-old Palestinian girl and locked her up for the night in their military base near the kibbutz. For the next few days she became the platoon’s sex slave as the soldiers shaved her head, gang-raped her and in the end murdered her. Ben-Gurion lists this rape too in his diary but it was censored out by his editors. On 29 October 2003, the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz publicised the story based on the testimonies of the rapists: twenty-two soldiers had taken part in the barbaric torture and execution of the girl. When they were then brought to trial, the severest punishment the court handed down was a prison term of two years for the soldier who had done the actual killing.

Oral recollection also exposed cases of rape throughout the occupation of Palestine’s villages: from the village of Tantura in May, through the village of Qula in June, and ending with one story after another of abuse and rape in the villages seized during Operation Hiram. Many of the cases were corroborated by UN officials who interviewed a number of women from the villages who were willing to come forward and talk about their experiences.

When, many years later, some of these people were interviewed, it was obvious how difficult it still proved for the men and women from the village to talk about names and details in these cases, and the interviewers came away with the impression that they all knew more than they wished or were able to tell.

Eyewitnesses also reported the callous and humiliating way in which women were stripped of all their jewellery, to the very last item. The same women were then harassed physically by the soldiers, which in Tantura ended in rape. Here is how Najiah Ayyub described it: ‘I saw that the troops who encircled us tried to touch the women but were rejected by them. When they saw that the women would not surrender, they stopped. When we were on the beach, they took two women and tried to undress them, claiming they had to search the bodies.’ ("Tantura" Illan Pape)

Tradition, shame, and trauma are the cultural and psychological barriers that prevent us from gaining the fuller picture of the rape of Palestinian women within the general plunder Jewish troops wreaked with such ferocity in both rural and urban Palestine during 1948 and 1949. Perhaps in the fullness of time someone will be able to complete this chapter of the chronicle of Israel's Ethnic cleansing of Palestine."

http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/P/Pa/Pappe_Ilan_-_The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine.pdf






Hardly a valid source of evidence due to his political views is it. He would make a good commissar in the Ukraine
 
main source my ass.

I presented multiple sources.

Sounds like more terrorist supporters hasbara

The facts are simple, the massacre story is a lie.

Stories of mass rapes and the killing of children as they slept are wildly exaggerated

Its all just more Arab Muslim hasbara nonsense

The accusation includes mass rape and murder of children in their beds.

Can you substantiate any other incidence of any Judaic forces having been found unequivocally guilty of mass rape ?

Or of entering homes and killing dozens of children as they sleep ?

take your time ;--)

Again you might find one rogue soldier who's guilty of one or the other but mass rape and murder by entire Judiac oganizations ? , I call BS
'I Saw Fit to Remove Her From the World'
Newly revealed documents obtained by Haaretz tell the long-hidden story of what Ben-Gurion described as a 'horrific atrocity': In August 1949 an IDF unit caught a Bedouin girl, held her captive in a Negev outpost, gang-raped her, executed her at the order of the platoon commander and buried her in a shallow grave in the desert. Twenty soldiers who took part in the episode, including the platoon commander, were court-martialed and sent to prison.
read more: 'I saw fit to remove her from the world'

Thanks for finding the article, it helps corroborate what professor Pappe asserted in my post #. 115:)






It also shows that using your criteria all Palestinians are mass murdering rapists and psychopathic child killers because of the actions of a few ?
 
The myth of the Dier Yassin massacre

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj_wILZ_YbMAhXFkoMKHfghCL4QFggcMAA&url=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12304&usg=AFQjCNGaT9A8Dlhj1On_1ymbTb34wAkrjQ&sig2=zD7LAppz9VklKyB2duXSHQ&bvm=bv.119028448,d.amc

Quote

For 64 years, since 1948, the recollection of the so-called "massacre" of the Arab village of Deir Yassin has been a crucible and a formative experience in Arab Jewish relations, in Israel in particular, but also throughout the whole Arab world.

The massacre story has been an important factor in establishing the idea of a Palestinian nation.

The so-called massacre has also been exploited by Israel’s left to undermine acceptance of and confidence in the Zionist state.
Op-Ed: Book Review... oh a book review






Does that make it ant worse than your islamonazi sourced wiki entries ?
 
Well just look at all those off topic posts.

BEST WE FORGET

Is remembering a lie even worth it. I say we forget all about the nonsense being spewed 65 years ago and move on.
 

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