Justice for the Palestinians

[Shusha]

VERY interesting map. Also, how do I calculate the 4 states in it? Do I guess that what you are describing with it would make the 4 states like
-- gaza, Arabic,
-- south Israel with Hebron, Jewish,
-- West Bank with Jordan river and Dead Sea shores, Arabic,
-- and north Israel with west Ramallah, Jewish?

Jordan. Gaza. Israel. Palestine (formerly West Bank, possibly divided into two sections).

 

[anotherlife]

VERY interesting map. Also, how do I calculate the 4 states in it? Do I guess that what you are describing with it would make the 4 states like
-- gaza, Arabic,
-- south Israel with Hebron, Jewish,
-- West Bank with Jordan river and Dead Sea shores, Arabic,
-- and north Israel with west Ramallah, Jewish?

Jordan. Gaza. Israel. Palestine (formerly West Bank, possibly divided into two sections).

You mentioned two Palestinian cities to transfer under Jewish state control. Which Jewish cities will do the same and go under Palestinian control?

 

[Shusha]

You mentioned two Palestinian cities to transfer under Jewish state control. Which Jewish cities will do the same and go under Palestinian control?

I did? I believe you are mistaken.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't understand how you can even remotely say this. While the Allied Arab Forces (Hashemite) and the early zionist understood and even agreed to cooperate towards the mutual "national aspirations" of the other; the enemy Arabs of Palestine formerly under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) were not as astute.

Indeed, those are Palestine's international borders.

The Jewish National Home was to allow Jews to get Palestinian citizenship and live in Palestine with the Palestinians.

Nowhere in the post war treaties will you find Israel, Jewish state, or exclusive. Those things were never mentioned.

(COMMENT)

By the same token, the "Nowhere in the post war treaties will you find exclusive to the Arab Palestinians. I assume that YOU DO NOT consider the Mandate (owning it's framework to the 1920 San Remo Conference being the first international recognition of the right of the Jewish people to a "national home.") as sufficiently authoritative.

• Article 2

“The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic
conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home (JNH), as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions,
​

In fact, Article two is exceptionally interesting as for what is not said --- as for what it does says:

• What it says in plain text:

(i) the creation of conditions which would secure the establishment of the JNH;

(ii) the creation of conditions which would secure the development of self-governing institutions; and

(iii) the safeguarding of the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants.
​

• What it DOES NOT SAY, but maybe implied:

(i) the creation of a Jewish national home is undefined; it puts no limitation on the meaning.

(ii) the creation of self-governing institutions does not preclude the JHN from being self-governing.

(iii) the safeguarding of the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants; suggests that there was an intent to insure the inhabitance should be protected against possible abuses by JNH Self-Governing Institution
​

This lack of insight on the part of the Arab Palestinians was found that the probable causes of the Arab-Jewish conflict had three aspects to t, depending on the perspective:

(a) The profound disappointment the Arabs (West of the Jordan River) at the lack of fulfillment of the promises of independence --- they thought were their due. The Arabs West of the Jordan thought themselves separate and distinct from the Arabs East of the Jordan River (three-quarters of the Mandate) that became the Article 25 Transjordan cut-out.

(b) The misinterpretation of the facts leading to a belief that the Balfour Declaration implied a denial of the Arab right of self-determination, and:

(i) There was a growing and mistaken understanding that the Article 2 establishment of the JNH would mean a great increase in Jewish immigration; and

(ii) That there would be an economic and political dominance by the Jews over the Arab inhabitance.
​

(c) There was an incitement of discontent through external propaganda (from outside Palestine) associated with a disgruntled Emir Faisal;​

Just as the Allied Powers left the boundaries to which the Mandate Applied flexible, so it was that the definition of the JNH was left in in-determinant. What we do know is that the JNH did not include a
create a wholly Jewish Palestine; as was stipulated in the Article 25 carveout. The Mandatory expressed the opinion that:

"In order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide an opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance. That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon ancient historic connexion.
History of the UK Establishment of British Administration Section I, The White Paper of 1922, Paragraph 15,
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The Arabs West of the Jordan thought themselves separate and distinct from the Arabs East of the Jordan River​

Probably because that was where they lived and they did not want to get bounced by a colonial project.

UTTER BULLSHIT

They were the same people and mixed openly being nomadic people. They followed the seasons and harvests across that part of the M.E. The LoN treaty stated that Palestine would be split into two parts at the request of the British and the smaller part be given to the Jews as their NATIONal home, the larger was to go to the arab muslims of the area under the rule of a Hashemite king.

Just read the contemporary history books and stop relying on islamonazi propaganda and lies for your evidence.

 

[Phoenall]

You mentioned two Palestinian cities to transfer under Jewish state control. Which Jewish cities will do the same and go under Palestinian control?

I did? I believe you are mistaken.

I know he is and he is trying to deflect because he is losing the arguments

 

[Phoenall]

View attachment 78975

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.​

When I heard about that island I thought it was too good to be true. I was right. There is one giant clunker in that project. The island itself will be in Israel's territorial waters with a long bridge to Gaza.

Since Israel has the "right" to determine what enters Israel, it will have complete control of persons and goods in and out of Gaza. Israel is not spending all that money to be nice. it is to keep its boot on Gaza's neck.

Well the arab muslims could always try talking peace and follow the UN resolutions, or would that be too much for them to take in at this time. The problem has always lain at the arab muslims feet as they are the ones that refuse to talk unless it is on their terms. Now they suffer greatly because they don't have the power on the international stage to back up their words.

 

[Phoenall]

View attachment 78975

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

they have fish farms,​

The entire west side of Gaza is on the Mediterranean.

Why would they have fish farms?

That's crazy.

Shows how intelligent you are then doesn't it, as fish stocks will soon be depleted from those grounds if they are not managed. Look at the Atlantic cod stocks that were nearly wiped out because of modern methods and overfishing, the world governments had to introduce quotas to safeguard the stocks depleted by over 90% since the 1970's. Same with Sea Bass stocks that the French and Spanish decimated in just 5 years. So the EU ploughed money into Sea Bass fish farms to allow the stocks to build back up. The Atlantic cod are protected in certain areas and so have started to make a comeback. Most Trout and Salmon commercially used come from fish farms.
A fish farm is close to shore and so the owners are not shot at because they are not near the borders or in deep water where smuggles drop illegal weapons. Gaza is only 29 miles long and the borders slope in towards each other on the east and west ends, I think you mean the north side of gaza as the west is the border with Egypt.

 

[Phoenall]

So. On another thread someone said, "In all negotiations, justice (for the Palestinians) has been off the table".

Let's discuss. What does "justice" mean? What would justice for the Palestinians look like?

Here is another model for the Palestine question you are asking. This one doesn't require justifications with various versions of history. The Jews created an identity about themselves. Creating identities, and also demolishing identities is a standard tool of international power politics. The Palestinians created an identity about themselves too, to match the Jew identity. This match is unacceptable from the Jew point of view, even if it is this simple and logical.

So what identity did the Jews create about themselves, how about a link that is unbiased and non partisan ?

 

[Phoenall]

View attachment 78975

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB​

And I bet that you have no idea why that is.

One thing is for certain you don't as you blame everyone else but the arab muslims.

They both want the power to control the aid money flowing into Palestine, and they both want to cream the top. How much illicit money have the two leaders managed to felt away in Swiss bank accounts that was meant to support the Palestinian people ?

 

[Phoenall]

So. On another thread someone said, "In all negotiations, justice (for the Palestinians) has been off the table".

Let's discuss. What does "justice" mean? What would justice for the Palestinians look like?

Well, for starters, The Palestinians should be allowed to go back to their homes.

So tell that to Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Yemen and all the other nations they originate from. When they point to the toilet window of a new complex built in the last 5 years and say that was my bedroom window 20 years ago you know they are LYING. All they have are pictures of Jewish built homes and rusty keys claiming that they fit the doors of those homes.

They should have stayed put and not volunteered to fight a war of annihilation against the Jews, then we would not have the problems we face today.

 

[Phoenall]

If you are brave enough to eat fish from water off the coast of gaza.......be my guest. Don't expect flowers at your funeral

gaze dumps live sewage into their sea water. You want them to eat what they shit?

Good point. Israel destroyed their sewage plant and will not allow it to be rebuilt.

That's crazy.

WRONG as the Palestinians destroyed it by stealing all the steel pipes to make illegal weapons with. Then they used the vicinity to fire those illegal weapons at Israel.

Did you know that hamas refused to accept plastic pipes to repair the sewage plants as they cant be made into illegal weapons, and so the Palestinians are left to suffer again by their leadership.

 

[Phoenall]

How about this map?

Green = Palestine. But join Jericho to Ramallah. And make the security zone along the Jordan border temporary. Israel keeps a corridor into Hebron, though. To protect her holy places there.

VERY interesting map. Also, how do I calculate the 4 states in it? Do I guess that what you are describing with it would make the 4 states like
-- gaza, Arabic,
-- south Israel with Hebron, Jewish,
-- West Bank with Jordan river and Dead Sea shores, Arabic,
-- and north Israel with west Ramallah, Jewish?

No gaza, west bank, Israel and Jordan

 

[P F Tinmore]

View attachment 78975

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB​

And I bet that you have no idea why that is.

One thing is for certain you don't as you blame everyone else but the arab muslims.

They both want the power to control the aid money flowing into Palestine, and they both want to cream the top. How much illicit money have the two leaders managed to felt away in Swiss bank accounts that was meant to support the Palestinian people ?

That's what I thought. You don't have a clue.

Israeli propaganda will not tell you such things. And since that is your only source...

 

[Phoenall]

View attachment 78975

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB​

And I bet that you have no idea why that is.

One thing is for certain you don't as you blame everyone else but the arab muslims.

They both want the power to control the aid money flowing into Palestine, and they both want to cream the top. How much illicit money have the two leaders managed to felt away in Swiss bank accounts that was meant to support the Palestinian people ?

That's what I thought. You don't have a clue.

Israeli propaganda will not tell you such things. And since that is your only source...

WRONG AGAIN TINNY as historical records and first hand experience tells you the facts, and I have been around longer than this problem has been going on. My news is not filtered to the extent yours is, so I get better informed of the reality. I don't have an Israeli propaganda source I have a media controlled by left wing neo Marxists and islamonazi's for my source and they put the blame on the Palestinians. How many times have we heard of a possible deal between hamas and fatah only for the west bank to blow up and Israeli civilians getting killed to illicit a response from Israel. If they were serious they would call a halt to all the violence until the talks were over and agreement reached.but they learnt from Arafat how to pull Israel's strings and force a halt to any peace talks.

How would you feel if the UN passed a security council resolution forcing the Palestinians to meet at a neutral venue and work out peace and mutual borders OR ELSE

 

[P F Tinmore]

Does this mean that the actual exports are a little piddle of what was agreed?

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB​

And I bet that you have no idea why that is.

One thing is for certain you don't as you blame everyone else but the arab muslims.

They both want the power to control the aid money flowing into Palestine, and they both want to cream the top. How much illicit money have the two leaders managed to felt away in Swiss bank accounts that was meant to support the Palestinian people ?

That's what I thought. You don't have a clue.

Israeli propaganda will not tell you such things. And since that is your only source...

WRONG AGAIN TINNY as historical records and first hand experience tells you the facts, and I have been around longer than this problem has been going on. My news is not filtered to the extent yours is, so I get better informed of the reality. I don't have an Israeli propaganda source I have a media controlled by left wing neo Marxists and islamonazi's for my source and they put the blame on the Palestinians. How many times have we heard of a possible deal between hamas and fatah only for the west bank to blow up and Israeli civilians getting killed to illicit a response from Israel. If they were serious they would call a halt to all the violence until the talks were over and agreement reached.but they learnt from Arafat how to pull Israel's strings and force a halt to any peace talks.

How would you feel if the UN passed a security council resolution forcing the Palestinians to meet at a neutral venue and work out peace and mutual borders OR ELSE

You are just blowing smoke.

You have no clue.

 

[aris2chat]

They have to produce enough to actually export out of gaza. Most food is consumed in gaza and this is not the season for flowers or fruit.
they have fish farms, they raise chickens, sheep and some cows. Furniture and textiles are their main industries for export beside agriculture. Even tough their exports are up 67%, a third or more goes to the WB.

Their main product is tunnels and rockets.

Maybe if hamas was not venomously at war with Israel, more stability would mean more trade and more foreign investment.
Gaza has to fix their own problems and stop depending on handouts from the world.
Stability and peace I the key. That would bring tourism as well.
If the island is built, it will mean air flight in and out and shipping would also benefit their economy.
Nothing will get better if they can't create a stable state.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB, let alone with Israel

Why don't they have more exports? Because hamas prefers attacking Israel than building their economy.

right now they can't even form a unity with the WB​

And I bet that you have no idea why that is.

One thing is for certain you don't as you blame everyone else but the arab muslims.

They both want the power to control the aid money flowing into Palestine, and they both want to cream the top. How much illicit money have the two leaders managed to felt away in Swiss bank accounts that was meant to support the Palestinian people ?

That's what I thought. You don't have a clue.

Israeli propaganda will not tell you such things. And since that is your only source...

WRONG AGAIN TINNY as historical records and first hand experience tells you the facts, and I have been around longer than this problem has been going on. My news is not filtered to the extent yours is, so I get better informed of the reality. I don't have an Israeli propaganda source I have a media controlled by left wing neo Marxists and islamonazi's for my source and they put the blame on the Palestinians. How many times have we heard of a possible deal between hamas and fatah only for the west bank to blow up and Israeli civilians getting killed to illicit a response from Israel. If they were serious they would call a halt to all the violence until the talks were over and agreement reached.but they learnt from Arafat how to pull Israel's strings and force a halt to any peace talks.

How would you feel if the UN passed a security council resolution forcing the Palestinians to meet at a neutral venue and work out peace and mutual borders OR ELSE

You are just blowing smoke.

You have no clue.

You talking to the mirror?

 

[anotherlife]

You mentioned two Palestinian cities to transfer under Jewish state control. Which Jewish cities will do the same and go under Palestinian control?

I did? I believe you are mistaken.

I thought that Ramallah and Hebron were Palestinian cities, but I may be wrong. In any case, based on your map, I think it would be practical, if the 4 states come together in a single common corner, somewhere half distance between Jerusalem and gaza. This would indeed put Jewish cities into Palestinian Territories and Palestinian cities into Jewish territories. But that should be okay, If mutual agreements are achieved like we discussed yesterday. By the way, we have a 4 state corner in the USA too, check the borders of Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, and New Mexico, all coming together in a single shared point. We call it the 4 corners. Wouldn't it be practical to do the same with the 4 states of Israel-Palestine too?

 

[aris2chat]

Ramallah is the capital for the Palestinians.

Hebron is a holy site ,the tomb of the patriarches

Palestinians are supposed to share the site with jews.

WB, G and Israel do not meet at any corner. No fourth state. Jordan became independent before Israel

 

[Shusha]

I thought that Ramallah and Hebron were Palestinian cities, but I may be wrong.

There is no such thing as "Palestinian cities". Ramallah is a city which is primarily inhabited by Arabs. Hebron is divided and inhabited by both Jews and Arabs.

What I said was that Ramallah would be contiguous with Jericho (no Israel in between) and that the Jewish portion of Hebron would remain under sovereign Israel in order to protect the Jewish holy sites which would also be under Israeli sovereignty.

In any case, based on your map, I think it would be practical, if the 4 states come together in a single common corner, somewhere half distance between Jerusalem and gaza.

You entirely misunderstand. There is no common corner between Gaza, Israel, Palestine (West Bank) and Jordan.

 

[Shusha]

WB, G and Israel do not meet at any corner. No fourth state. Jordan became independent before Israel

Four state solution meaning the four states which would or have come into being from the partition of the territory delineated as the Mandate of Palestine.