Israeli soldiers are killing themselves

[yiostheoy]

Ransacking people's homes performing searches while kids are screaming, mothers are crying and grabbing at you and the father looks on helplessly, causes a lot of stress. More than that of a firefight.

Not exactly.

Exactly the case, having undergone the experience.

You just say "sorry but we are looking for terrorists who are known to be hiding around here someplace -- it's for your own good -- they are using you as human shields."

 

[yiostheoy]

Not many, if any, societies these days maintain a permanent military occupation of a population as large as its own, if not larger. It may seem normal because it has gone on for so long, but it is an abnormal dynamic if you really think about it. Some of the less insensitive soldiers that maintain that occupation must not do well psychologically.

Normally specially picked and specially trained soldiers do the dirty work.

That's what US Marines are for.

That's what Nazi SS were also for.

Perhaps you should complain to Netanyahu.

 

[montelatici]

Not many, if any, societies these days maintain a permanent military occupation of a population as large as its own, if not larger. It may seem normal because it has gone on for so long, but it is an abnormal dynamic if you really think about it. Some of the less insensitive soldiers that maintain that occupation must not do well psychologically.

Normally specially picked and specially trained soldiers do the dirty work.

That's what US Marines are for.

That's what Nazi SS were also for.

Perhaps you should complain to Netanyahu.

No, Marines are not specially trained for maintaining a military occupation.

 

[yiostheoy]

Not many, if any, societies these days maintain a permanent military occupation of a population as large as its own, if not larger. It may seem normal because it has gone on for so long, but it is an abnormal dynamic if you really think about it. Some of the less insensitive soldiers that maintain that occupation must not do well psychologically.

Normally specially picked and specially trained soldiers do the dirty work.

That's what US Marines are for.

That's what Nazi SS were also for.

Perhaps you should complain to Netanyahu.

No, Marines are not specially trained for maintaining a military occupation.

You would be surprised how much they enjoyed burning down hooches in Viet Nam.

But then, when someone like a ghost is sniping at you all day long, you start to like playing with fire.

So the Palestinians are lucky it is not the US Marines that are quartering and searching them.

Otherwise all of Gaza would be in flames a long time ago.

 

[Shusha]

Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

I think being an Israeli soldier is challenging and difficult. (Of course, being neither an Israeli nor a soldier, I don't know, I can only imagine). But I think you misunderstand the "societal expectations". The primary expectation of soldiers, both externally from society and as an internal motivation, is to protect innocent citizens from harm. That is their job. That is what they do.

They wouldn't be forced to DO that job if Israel wasn't under near daily attack from those wishing to bring harm upon her innocent citizens. That's the circus within which the IDF is playing.

The false thinking that is demonstrated time and time again on this board is the idea that Israel is somehow required not to respond to threats and actions against her and her innocent citizens. Here's an idea: why don't we instead require people to stop attacking Israel and Israel's innocent citizens?

The other false thinking is the idea that appeasement of Arab Muslim demands will lead to peace. There is absolutely no evidence that this is true -- and in fact there are plenty of examples that instead, appeasement only fortifies the Arab Muslims belief that continued violence will bring them more of whatever it is they decide to demand.

The way through this is to stop falsely accusing Israel of "brutal polices" and start recognizing Israel's response to constant threat is both legally and morally correct (with some exceptions) and largely measured and restrained. The way through this is to require Arab Palestinians to immediately cease all forms of violence against Israel and her citizens.

 

[Eloy]

Your implication that the stress on a young conscript in the IDF raiding and ransacking Palestinian homes in Hebron in the dead of night is less than the average Israeli, say a boy of 7 in a Haifa primary school or a scientist in a Tel Aviv laboratory strikes me as complacent -- an attitude not conducive to recognizing the problem of suicide in the IDF and a determination to prevent it.

Actually, if you had read the entirety of the link you posted, you would see that Israel does quite a bit to prevent it. You would also know that Israel has been extremely successful at lowering its suicide rate throughout society in the past ten years. AND you would know that even the re-introduction of permitting soldiers to take their weapons home when on leave did not raise the suicide rate.

What your true intent was for this thread was to demonize Israeli soldiers and Israeli society.

Of course I read the article I cited and noted the glaring absence of any analysis of the cause of Israeli soldiers who continue to kill themselves despite being allowed to take their assault weapons home and other interventions.
I suggested one cause which is one more than was offered by the IDF, namely, the depressing dehumanizing operations which IFD soldiers are ordered to do to maintain the brutal occupation of their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people.
Please have the courtesy to quit inventing motivations for my posts which are products of your own suspicious mind.

 

[Eloy]

Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

I think being an Israeli soldier is challenging and difficult. (Of course, being neither an Israeli nor a soldier, I don't know, I can only imagine). But I think you misunderstand the "societal expectations". The primary expectation of soldiers, both externally from society and as an internal motivation, is to protect innocent citizens from harm. That is their job. That is what they do.

They wouldn't be forced to DO that job if Israel wasn't under near daily attack from those wishing to bring harm upon her innocent citizens. That's the circus within which the IDF is playing.

The false thinking that is demonstrated time and time again on this board is the idea that Israel is somehow required not to respond to threats and actions against her and her innocent citizens. Here's an idea: why don't we instead require people to stop attacking Israel and Israel's innocent citizens?

The other false thinking is the idea that appeasement of Arab Muslim demands will lead to peace. There is absolutely no evidence that this is true -- and in fact there are plenty of examples that instead, appeasement only fortifies the Arab Muslims belief that continued violence will bring them more of whatever it is they decide to demand.

The way through this is to stop falsely accusing Israel of "brutal polices" and start recognizing Israel's response to constant threat is both legally and morally correct (with some exceptions) and largely measured and restrained. The way through this is to require Arab Palestinians to immediately cease all forms of violence against Israel and her citizens.

Some of us have not swallowed the Israeli bogus claim that their repression of the invaded and massacred Palestinian people has to do with self defense. It is not. Rather the military operations of the IDF are designed to demoralize, destroy, and keep under the Israeli occupation and blockade their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people.

 

[Eloy]

It is reported by The Times of Israel that the top cause of death among the Israel Defense Force (IDF) in 2016 was suicide. "Fifteen IDF soldiers — all of them male — committed suicide last year, the same number as the year before and the year before that, according to a senior official in the IDF’s Manpower Directorate."
Suicide was top cause of death for IDF soldiers in 2016
No explanation for these suicides was offered by the IDF but it stands to reason that some young soldiers might find themselves conscripted and expected to enforce a brutal occupation of of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and this must cause considerable stress especially on those who struggle to resist being dehumanized in the process. Consider that: "Of the soldiers who committed suicide, for instance, 12 were conscripts, two were career soldiers, and one was a reservist."

All soldiers everywhere suffer from higher than normal suicide rates.

Part of the reason is due to the stress from the separation cause by duty.

Part is due to having been taught to solve problems in combat with a gun.

And in some cases it is Susie sending him her Dear John letter.

Your list is not exhaustive, principally by omitting the one I proposed in the case of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Please have the courtesy to quit inventing motivations for my posts which are products of your own suspicious mind.

You are accusing me of inventing motivations? How utterly ironic.

The rate of suicide in the Israeli military forces is exactly on par with the rate of suicide in the general population despite easy, immediate access to an effective method of committing suicide. There is no need to establish any kind of "special" motivation for suicide in the IDF. Its the same as would be found generally in the population.

 

[Shusha]

Some of us have not swallowed the Israeli bogus claim that their repression of the invaded and massacred Palestinian people has to do with self defense. It is not.

So wait, what?

Are you claiming that Israel, and her citizens are not actually being attacked?

Or are you claiming that Israel and her citizens are being attacked but have no right to defend themselves?

 

[montelatici]

Not many, if any, societies these days maintain a permanent military occupation of a population as large as its own, if not larger. It may seem normal because it has gone on for so long, but it is an abnormal dynamic if you really think about it. Some of the less insensitive soldiers that maintain that occupation must not do well psychologically.

Normally specially picked and specially trained soldiers do the dirty work.

That's what US Marines are for.

That's what Nazi SS were also for.

Perhaps you should complain to Netanyahu.

No, Marines are not specially trained for maintaining a military occupation.

You would be surprised how much they enjoyed burning down hooches in Viet Nam.

But then, when someone like a ghost is sniping at you all day long, you start to like playing with fire.

So the Palestinians are lucky it is not the US Marines that are quartering and searching them.

Otherwise all of Gaza would be in flames a long time ago.

Having done a tour in Vietnam with the 196th Light Infantry Brigade (LRRP) I can tell we did not "enjoy burning down hooches". I doubt the Marines did either.

 

[Eloy]

Please have the courtesy to quit inventing motivations for my posts which are products of your own suspicious mind.

You are accusing me of inventing motivations? How utterly ironic.

The rate of suicide in the Israeli military forces is exactly on par with the rate of suicide in the general population despite easy, immediate access to an effective method of committing suicide. There is no need to establish any kind of "special" motivation for suicide in the IDF. Its the same as would be found generally in the population.

Please reply to my argument which is that your generalizing from the entire population is a misunderstanding of valid statistics. Sub populations such as conscripted IDF soldiers are under more stress that the "average" Israeli which is why I mentioned a small schoolboy or a lab researcher. I spelled it out for you but you continue to use a statistical fallacy.

 

[Weatherman2020]

It is reported by The Times of Israel that the top cause of death among the Israel Defense Force (IDF) in 2016 was suicide. "Fifteen IDF soldiers — all of them male — committed suicide last year, the same number as the year before and the year before that, according to a senior official in the IDF’s Manpower Directorate."
Suicide was top cause of death for IDF soldiers in 2016
No explanation for these suicides was offered by the IDF but it stands to reason that some young soldiers might find themselves conscripted and expected to enforce a brutal occupation of of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and this must cause considerable stress especially on those who struggle to resist being dehumanized in the process. Consider that: "Of the soldiers who committed suicide, for instance, 12 were conscripts, two were career soldiers, and one was a reservist."

Everyone 18-20 is in the IDF or the police force, an age group prone to suicide.

At least they aren't walking into pizza parlors with rat laced nail bombs doing it.

 

[Eloy]

Some of us have not swallowed the Israeli bogus claim that their repression of the invaded and massacred Palestinian people has to do with self defense. It is not.

So wait, what?

Are you claiming that Israel, and her citizens are not actually being attacked?

Or are you claiming that Israel and her citizens are being attacked but have no right to defend themselves?

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families. You are into statistics a bit. You know the numbers dead and wounded, and the amount of mayhem. No. No reasonable human being believes these are actions of self defence.

What decent IDF soldier could live with himself after this, it must be wondered.

 

[Eloy]

Not many, if any, societies these days maintain a permanent military occupation of a population as large as its own, if not larger. It may seem normal because it has gone on for so long, but it is an abnormal dynamic if you really think about it. Some of the less insensitive soldiers that maintain that occupation must not do well psychologically.

Normally specially picked and specially trained soldiers do the dirty work.

That's what US Marines are for.

That's what Nazi SS were also for.

Perhaps you should complain to Netanyahu.

No, Marines are not specially trained for maintaining a military occupation.

You would be surprised how much they enjoyed burning down hooches in Viet Nam.

But then, when someone like a ghost is sniping at you all day long, you start to like playing with fire.

So the Palestinians are lucky it is not the US Marines that are quartering and searching them.

Otherwise all of Gaza would be in flames a long time ago.

Having done a tour in Vietnam with the 196th Light Infantry Brigade (LRRP) I can tell we did not "enjoy burning down hooches". I doubt the Marines did either.

Please, stay on topic, Montelatici. I realize you have allowed yourself to respond to diversion posts but the OP and topic is about the IDF and why their soldiers might be killing themselves.

 

[Shusha]

Sub populations such as conscripted IDF soldiers are under more stress that the "average" Israeli which is why I mentioned a small schoolboy or a lab researcher. I spelled it out for you but you continue to use a statistical fallacy.

Interesting that this sub-population has NO higher rate of suicide than the general population does, isn't it? This despite an easy access to means of committing suicide.

How would you explain this "normal" rate of suicide, given the extreme stress you appear to believe they are under?

 

[Shusha]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

 

[Eloy]

Sub populations such as conscripted IDF soldiers are under more stress that the "average" Israeli which is why I mentioned a small schoolboy or a lab researcher. I spelled it out for you but you continue to use a statistical fallacy.

Interesting that this sub-population has NO higher rate of suicide than the general population does, isn't it? This despite an easy access to means of committing suicide.

How would you explain this "normal" rate of suicide, given the extreme stress you appear to believe they are under?

This is easy to explain. You are comparing a sub-population of only 2 years eight months to everyone else in Israel from birth to death. It cannot be done.

 

[montelatici]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

Israel is militarily occupying Palestine. How can Israel be under attack? It's like saying that Germany was under attack when it was occupying much of Europe.

 

[Eloy]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

I believe there is very little I can tell you. Also, books and learned journal articles have been written on the disproportionate "response" of the Israeli military to virtually harmless crude firecrackers launched by rogues. Collective and massive punishment of Palestinian families for the antics of some hooligans is completely shocking and immoral. This deserves a thread of its own.

I tried to relate your post to the OP by saying that it must play on a young soldier's mind after he gets involved in such mayhem. I am not an expert; I do not know what research has been done on this. Some IDF might be among those who committed wrong acts when maintaining the occupation and became suicidal. The point is, the release of the IDF document did not tell us of the investigations, if any, into the causes of the suicides or the data relating to depression among IDF conscripts. I suspect they want to keep this Top Secret.