Israel does not exist

[Shusha]

Can you please explain why you think that there are no borders?

I'm curious, because when I was in Jordan there was definitely a border crossing into Israel, a full, and legal border crossing. I know, I used it!

So, I am really interested to try and understand why you believe there are no borders...

Tinmore's argument is interesting because he often mixes completely correct legal concepts with bizarre ones. For example:

There is no border around Gaza. Only the green line. You would think there is a border when you cross it because it is under military control. Israel controls the border between Jordan and the West Bank, (Palestinian occupied territory) but you would think you are entering Israel. Similarly, going from the West Bank into Israel there is a "border crossing" even though there is only the green line. The green line is not a political or territorial border between countries....

This argument is entirely correct. The Green Line (1949 Armistice Line) has absolutely no legal standing as a border. It is NOT a border. Never has been and is explicitly prohibited from being a border. The only thing that can create a border is a treaty between nations delineating a border. And that has not happened within Palestine. Tinmore is perfectly correct when he says that "Palestine" is one sovereign territorial unit.

But where he goes from there is where it gets weird (and wrong).

He claims that the State of Palestine was created in 1922/23 by the Treaty of Lausanne. And then confirmed in 1925 with the Citizenship Order. He claims, therefore, that the State of Palestine ALREADY existed, prior to Israel coming into being. He claims, therefore, that Israel is an illegal entity built within the previously delineated borders of the existing State of Palestine. And since Israel did not declare borders with her Independence -- she has none. That's his argument.

Here is why he is wrong:

1. The Treaty of Lausanne did not create States -- it only delineated territory under the British and the French Mandates and gave labels to geographical territories.

2. The criteria for a State are: a permanent population, a defined territory, a government and the capacity to enter into relations with other States. In 1923 "Palestine" did not meet the criteria of a state, therefore there was no state. (That was the ENTIRE point of the Mandate -- to govern the territories in question until they had the ability to "stand alone".)

3. All of the states which were previously under the Mandate came into being AS they met the criteria listed above. Iraq in 1932, Lebanon in 1943, Syria and Jordan in 1946. "Palestine" ALSO met that criteria in 1948 and declared independence. That created the State of Israel (in Palestine). It was the same procedure for each. Each gained independence over the entirety of the territory and each had border with other States.

4. Even if you want to argue that all those States came into being in 1923, instead of 10-25 years later, but were still held "in trust" by the Mandate -- this does not prohibit or prevent Israel from existing. The concept would apply equally to all the States.

5. The PROOF that Israel became a State at that time is in the treaties and relations Israel had (has) with other States. Peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt (delineating borders); admission and recognition in the UN, diplomatic relations with other States, etc, etc, etc. There is no State of Palestine which demonstrates its capacity -- in 1922 or 1948 or well into the 1990s even -- to enter into relations with other States.

 

[P F Tinmore]

1. The Treaty of Lausanne did not create States -- it only delineated territory under the British and the French Mandates and gave labels to geographical territories.

It is true that the Treaty of Lausanne did not create any states. The allied powers proposed to create successor states. They divided the territory, named each piece, and defined each new state with international borders. However, none of this could take place because all of these proposed new states still fell under Turkish sovereignty.

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

 

[Shusha]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

 

[Shusha]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

JEWS are the native indigenous people of the Land of Israel.
It does not matter if they came from Zurich, Guatemala, Timbuktu, or Rome.

All Palestinians are Arabs and most had come to Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, early 20th Century from Arabia, Europe, North Africa and many other places.

Their indigenous land is called Arabia and to this day it sits in the same area it has always been.

You continue to give phony arguments to attempt to delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, the Jewish People/Nation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the Treaty of Lausanne that ceded the land to the respective new states. It also specified (Following international law.) that all former Turkish citizens would become citizens inside their new states.

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

JEWS are the native indigenous people of the Land of Israel.
It does not matter if they came from Zurich, Guatemala, Timbuktu, or Rome.

All Palestinians are Arabs and most had come to Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, early 20th Century from Arabia, Europe, North Africa and many other places.

Their indigenous land is called Arabia and to this day it sits in the same area it has always been.

You continue to give phony arguments to attempt to delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, the Jewish People/Nation.

Thanks for the Israeli talking points. I have heard them a gazillion times.

 

[Sixties Fan]

And there you go! You have provided your own answer to the question you continually ask, "Where did Palestine (Israel) get her territory?" She got it in the exact same way everyone else did. Ceded from Turkey through the Treaty of Lausanne. Thanks.

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?

By the Treaty of Lausanne. Exactly like you said. The exact same way as every other State in the area was created.

Why wouldn't it have been?

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

JEWS are the native indigenous people of the Land of Israel.
It does not matter if they came from Zurich, Guatemala, Timbuktu, or Rome.

All Palestinians are Arabs and most had come to Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, early 20th Century from Arabia, Europe, North Africa and many other places.

Their indigenous land is called Arabia and to this day it sits in the same area it has always been.

You continue to give phony arguments to attempt to delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, the Jewish People/Nation.

Thanks for the Israeli talking points. I have heard them a gazillion times.

And you will be reading and hearing the truth a gazillion times more,
you can absorb it or not.

Israel is the sovereign country of the indigenous people of the Land of Israel/Judea (which the Romans changed the name to humiliate the Jews and NOBODY else)

The Jews can live with having 80% of their ancient homeland being taken by foreigners, those foreigners need to get used to living next to the sovereign country of the Jewish People.

Israel will never have a majority Arabs/Muslims.

Israel is Palestine.
Jordan is Palestine.
Gaza is Palestine.
Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria can be Palestine if the Arabs can only want peace with the Jews.

That is the reality many have come to understand.

It does not depend on you.
It never has depended on you.

 

[Shusha]

The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

A foreign government? Don't be absurd. The only foreign governments which used military force in order to prevent the legal and practical formation of the State of Palestine (Israel) were the governments of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon. Those governments were foreign to the territory, had NO sovereignty over Palestine and illegally used military force outside their own borders. There were no other foreign governments or States involved.

 

[Shusha]

You are STILL trying to find some argument for why the State of Israel CAN'T exist because ....... Jooooooooos. It won't work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that a specific ethnic group can't form a government and a State. Neither will trying to disguise it as "foreigners" work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that only "natives" can be part of State formation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but Israel is a foreign entity in Palestine. How was that land transferred?
The native population was removed and a foreign government was imposed by military force.

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

JEWS are the native indigenous people of the Land of Israel.
It does not matter if they came from Zurich, Guatemala, Timbuktu, or Rome.

All Palestinians are Arabs and most had come to Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, early 20th Century from Arabia, Europe, North Africa and many other places.

Their indigenous land is called Arabia and to this day it sits in the same area it has always been.

You continue to give phony arguments to attempt to delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, the Jewish People/Nation.

Thanks for the Israeli talking points. I have heard them a gazillion times.

And you will be reading and hearing the truth a gazillion times more,
you can absorb it or not.

Israel is the sovereign country of the indigenous people of the Land of Israel/Judea (which the Romans changed the name to humiliate the Jews and NOBODY else)

The Jews can live with having 80% of their ancient homeland being taken by foreigners, those foreigners need to get used to living next to the sovereign country of the Jewish People.

Israel will never have a majority Arabs/Muslims.

Israel is Palestine.
Jordan is Palestine.
Gaza is Palestine.
Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria can be Palestine if the Arabs can only want peace with the Jews.

That is the reality many have come to understand.

It does not depend on you.
It never has depended on you.

And you will be reading and hearing the truth a gazillion times more,

Still doesn't make it true.

 

[Hollie]

Stop with your endless BS.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

The Native population has taken back sovereignty over their ancient homeland, even if 77% was disgracefully given by one foreign government (England) to another foreign people, the Hashemites of Arabia.

Military force is what 7 Arab foreign countries used to try to destroy Israel in various wars after its Independence.

Jews are the Natives.

Arabs, aka Palestinians or not, are the foreigners.

Get used to it or not, you do know that That is how it has always been.

Israel is not a "foreign government" to the Land of Israel/Palestine.

Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

JEWS are the native indigenous people of the Land of Israel.
It does not matter if they came from Zurich, Guatemala, Timbuktu, or Rome.

All Palestinians are Arabs and most had come to Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, early 20th Century from Arabia, Europe, North Africa and many other places.

Their indigenous land is called Arabia and to this day it sits in the same area it has always been.

You continue to give phony arguments to attempt to delegitimize the indigenous people of the land, the Jewish People/Nation.

Thanks for the Israeli talking points. I have heard them a gazillion times.

And you will be reading and hearing the truth a gazillion times more,
you can absorb it or not.

Israel is the sovereign country of the indigenous people of the Land of Israel/Judea (which the Romans changed the name to humiliate the Jews and NOBODY else)

The Jews can live with having 80% of their ancient homeland being taken by foreigners, those foreigners need to get used to living next to the sovereign country of the Jewish People.

Israel will never have a majority Arabs/Muslims.

Israel is Palestine.
Jordan is Palestine.
Gaza is Palestine.
Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria can be Palestine if the Arabs can only want peace with the Jews.

That is the reality many have come to understand.

It does not depend on you.
It never has depended on you.

And you will be reading and hearing the truth a gazillion times more,

Still doesn't make it true.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are STILL trying to find some argument for why the State of Israel CAN'T exist because ....... Jooooooooos. It won't work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that a specific ethnic group can't form a government and a State. Neither will trying to disguise it as "foreigners" work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that only "natives" can be part of State formation.

You need to read up on the basic rights of a people.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You are STILL trying to find some argument for why the State of Israel CAN'T exist because ....... Jooooooooos. It won't work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that a specific ethnic group can't form a government and a State. Neither will trying to disguise it as "foreigners" work. There is absolutely no basis in international law for claiming that only "natives" can be part of State formation.

You need to read up on the basic rights of a people.

You need to read on the basic rights of ALL people.

Jews are people, too.

Jews Exist.

Israel Exists.

Arabs/Muslims cannot change that.
Arabs /Muslims cannot continue to deny Jews their basic rights.

 

[Shusha]

You need to read up on the basic rights of a people.

You mean like the basic rights of a people to re-constitute their national homeland, as provided for by treaty (international law)?

You need a better understanding of human rights law. First of all, the rights of one people do not PROHIBIT the rights of another people from existing. If one group of people have basic rights, then the other group of people ALSO have human rights. Its a fairly simple concept. You should be able to grasp it.

Anyone who claims that the Jewish people have no "basic human rights" are antisemitic, plain and simple. Anyone who believes that the Jewish people are not a people, not a cultural or ethnic group or nothing but Europeans fall into this category. Is this where I should put you? Or will you acknowledge that the Jewish people ALSO have basic right?

You have never outwardly said that the Jewish people don't have basic rights of a people (you tend to abandon the argument or create a diversion instead) but you argue as though you don't believe that they do or that they should somehow be treated differently. I'm not sure yet if its because you are trying to hide what you know sounds (is) antisemitic or if your idea of basic rights is a bit fuzzy.

So let's ask some objective questions about your general framework for "basic rights of a people".

1. Is it a basic right for a people to form a sovereignty in their homeland?

2. If a people are prevented from self-determination in their homeland, do they have a right to resist?

3. If a people are removed from that homeland, do they have a right to return?

4. If they have a right to return to they have a right to constitute or re-constitute their national home?

 

[Shusha]

You need to read up on the basic rights of a people.

You need to be careful what you are claiming here. It sounds to me like you are claiming that possession of a territory grants superior or exclusive rights, regardless of how that possession was obtained. This argument is problematic on a number of levels, if you look at the laws surrounding international sovereignty, not the least of which is that Israel is currently in possession of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You need to read up on the basic rights of a people.

You need to be careful what you are claiming here. It sounds to me like you are claiming that possession of a territory grants superior or exclusive rights, regardless of how that possession was obtained. This argument is problematic on a number of levels, if you look at the laws surrounding international sovereignty, not the least of which is that Israel is currently in possession of Palestine.

You have a basic misunderstanding of international law. One of the basics is that the people are "married" to the land.

We see this in the rule of nationality and state succession. When there is a change in governance, the people become citizens of the new state. They cannot be separated from their land.

The people have the right of territorial integrity. Land cannot be acquired through the threat or use of force. It is illegal to annex occupied territory. In other words, it is illegal to steal land.

The people are the sovereigns in a territory. People from another territory have no sovereignty there. Occupying powers do not acquire sovereignty in a territory. Whenever rights are mentioned, it is always the right of the people. It is never mentioned that states or governments have rights.

Governments derive their legitimacy by the consent of the governed. Governments established through coups or other military force are illegitimate.

Israel violates most or all of these legal principles.