CDZ Is this the way it is or the way that it should be ?

[2aguy]

Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent criminal attack and to save lives....many times stopping mass public shooters.........vs........8,124 gun murders in 2014....

1,500,,000 to 8,124

That is a compelling interest in keeping Americans safe....

Again, bullshit. "Brandishing" a gun is not "using it".

You can bring up all the bullshit NRA statistics you want. The only one that really matters is: Which country has more gun deaths than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

 

[GaryDog]

Again, bullshit. "Brandishing" a gun is not "using it".

You can bring up all the bullshit NRA statistics you want. The only one that really matters is: Which country has more gun deaths than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

 

[Kristian]

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

Not every guys and children.

For then we had certainly not been sitting here in this community.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

We are not killing ourselves with guns....

357,000,000 guns in private hands.....1,500,000 times a year they are used to save lives, stop violent criminal attack and also many times to stop mass shooters........

of the 8,124 gun murders 90% of the killers are already legally banned from buying, owning and carrying guns....you can't stop them with more laws...they are breaking the laws that say they can't buy, own or carry guns now.......so making more laws on law abiding people is just stupid...they are not using guns to commit crimes and murder......

Our non gun murder rate is higher than the murder rate of just about each country in Europe...because of our thugs.....

of the 8,124 gun murders...70-80% are also criminals engaged in crime.......not innocent people living their lives....

so..of the 8,124 gun murders.....that means there are 1,642 innocent people murdered with guns...and of those, many are shot because they are friends or relatives of the actual criminals...like the Ohio family wiped out at the pot farm......the women and children murdered were the only real innocents there.......

so in a country of over 320,000,000 people....1,642 are actually innocent victims of gun murder......

How many people are killed in car accidents....33,000 in 2014......

33,000 vs. all gun murder...8,124

33,000 vs. innocent victims... 1,642

We do not have a gun problem...the numbers don't come any where near supporting your points.....

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

No......our prosecutors and judges....for some unfathomable reason....do not take violent gun criminals seriously...for all of the bitching about gun crime...they do not lock these monsters up..........and that drives our gun crime rate...

The Left’s Phony War on Guns, by Kevin D. Williamson, National Review

Chicago has Wild West levels of homicide.

(Worse, in fact; the criminality and violence of the ungoverned West has been greatly exaggerated, and some of those old cow towns had lower per capita crime rates back when they had no formal government than they do today.)

Do you know what kind of crime illegal possession of a firearm is in the state of Illinois?

It is a misdemeanor.

A 2014 study conducted by the Chicago Sun-Times found that in most cases, Cook County judges handed down the minimum sentence for gun possession, and in most cases, the criminals ended up serving far less than that, doing only a few months.

Those charged with simple possession had an average of four prior arrests; those charged with the more serious crime of being a felon in possession of a firearm had an average of ten previous arrests.
Ten arrests, and the eleventh is for a gun-related crime.
One wonders how many undetected crimes are covered by such criminal careers.
Many in Illinois have argued that, given the state of crime there, stiffer sentences are warranted.
A bill was introduced to that end, and it was opposed by Democrats who argued that stiffer sentences for those actually committing crimes with guns would “unfairly target African-Americans,” as the Sun-Times put it.
The NRA, to its discredit, opposed that bill, too, arguing that the penalties for simple possession in absence of other criminal activity were too stiff.
But that’s an argument for liberalizing Illinois gun laws, not for forgoing the punishment of criminals.
The NRA did support harsher punishment for felons in possession of firearms, and for the use of firearms in crimes. Democrats have generally opposed them.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

Again...we are not locking up our gun criminals.....

America Should Be Prosecuting Straw Purchasers, Not Gun Dealers

Wisconsin isn’t alone in its nonchalance. California normally treats straw purchases as misdemeanors or minor infractions. Even as the people of Baltimore suffer horrific levels of violence, Maryland classifies the crime as a misdemeanor, too. Straw buying is a felony in progressive Connecticut, albeit one in the second-least-serious order of felonies. It is classified as a serious crime in Illinois (Class 2 felony), but police rarely (meaning “almost never”) go after the nephews and girlfriends with clean records who provide Chicago’s diverse and sundry gangsters with their weapons. In Delaware, it’s a Class F felony, like forging a check. In Oregon, it’s a misdemeanor.

--------

I visited Chicago a few years back to write about the city’s gang-driven murder problem, and a retired police official told me that the nature of the people making straw purchases — young relatives, girlfriends who may or may not have been facing the threat of physical violence, grandmothers, etc. — made prosecuting those cases unattractive. In most of those cases, the authorities emphatically should put the straw purchasers in prison for as long as possible. Throw a few gangsters’ grandmothers behind bars for 20 years and see if that gets anybody’s attention. In the case of the young women suborned into breaking the law, that should be just another charge to put on the main offender.

 

[Divine Wind]

With any rally that is organized or march that is conducted, should anyone be allowed to attend the rally with a loaded weapon without proper authorization? Otherwise to just show up with a weapon brandished upon your person, and claiming a right to do so under the Constitution ? For anyone wanting to attend a rally or march, and wanting to do so with a loaded weapon, (I have to ask), should they have to get a separate permit or a permit specifically stating the reason for having the gun coming along with them ? If the reason is not good enough, then should they be denide the permit for carrying a weapon at the specific rally applied for ? Should a bill be created that addresses the issue if there isn't one already ? If a rally is created or a march that is deemed peaceful by the organizers as just that, and it is stated in the permit being granted as such, then shouldn't there be added (due to the peaceful nature) a rule that states no weapons at all are allowed at the event, and a copy of it is to be given to the local police force in order to enforce the rule ?

Doesn't it depend if the rally, march or whatever is done on private or public property?

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

This guy is going to murder someone in the future...because he has shown a willingness to use a gun in an act of unecessary cruelty.....and he should have been put in jail for 30 years ....that is how you dry up gun crime...

Burglar held by homeowner after shooting family dog

Jones collected four antique pistols, a crossbow, a knife and a machete from the couple’s home. Shadow was still barking, so Jones first threw the knife at the dog, then took one of the pistols he had just stolen and shot Shadow. Soon thereafter, the couple came home.

Sheffield told local media in a recent interview that he immediately knew something was awry when he saw the front door was opened with the storm door closed. He said he knew it shouldn’t be that way, so he entered with caution, his handgun drawn and at the ready.

Once inside, Sheffield came face to face with Jones, who was still armed. Sheffield trained his gun on Jones and told him to get down.

“He hesitated for a second, and I said, ‘Go down or you’re dead.’ And he said, ‘Alright, alright, alright,’” Sheffield recalled.

He held Jones there until police arrived a short time later. He was arrested and charged with burglary, theft by unlawful taking, receiving stolen property and animal cruelty.

However, the couple was rather disappointed to learn that less than a week after the break-in, Jones was released from jail on a $1,000 bond.

“It’s just like a slap on the wrist,” said Sheffield’s wife, obviously irritated about the situation.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

So....tell me we are taking gun crime seriously...when these guys get out of jail so easily...over and over again....

So...this guy is a felon 4x over....he was on the street, again.....and had a gun he wasn't allowed to have...and he committed murder.

In New York......gun control paradise...where normal people can't get concealed carry permits without a lot money and a lawyer..........

He murdered a police officer....

Suspect who fatally shot NY cop had history of violence, 28 prior arrests

However, at the time of Tuesday’s shooting, Howard was already wanted for a previous shooting that occurred in August and, in fact, over the last two months, authorities made 10 unsuccessful attempts to apprehend Howard, the Associated Press reported.

Court documents show Howard has been arrested a total of 28 times over the last 17 years, with his first arrest occurring at just 13-years-old. Howard’s criminal history included four felony drug charges, as well as charges stemming from his involvement in a 2009 shooting that injured an 11-year-old child and a 78-year-old.

The discovery of Howard’s criminal history and lack of incarceration infuriated Police Commissioner William Bratton and prompted state Supreme Court Justice Edward McLaughlin to explain why Howard, who Bratton described as a dangerous criminal, was allowed on the streets. But McLaughlin defended his decision, noting that he recommended Howard, who was arrested for selling crack cocaine to an undercover officer last October, for a diversion program – a treatment-oriented drug court – instead of serving the seven-year prison sentence recommended by the district attorney’s office.


Randolph Holder was a five-year veteran of the force and described as someone who was loved by everyone. (Photo: New York Police Department)

Furthermore, McLaughlin, who was unaware of the 2009 shooting at the time of the recommendation, said since Howard had no prior violent offenses and after reading a social worker’s report on Howard’s troubled home life and longtime drug addiction, he felt the drug treatment program was the better option for Howard.

In February, Howard posted bail, was released from jail and pleaded guilty to the drug charges. He continued to make his regular court appearances up until August, days before the shooting occurred.

**********

Death of Hadiya Pendleton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The death of Hadiya Pendleton occurred on January 29, 2013. Pendleton was a 15-year-old girl from Chicago, who was shot in the back and killed while standing with friends inside Harsh Park in Chicago after taking her final exams.[1]

----------
At the time of the shooting, Ward, the gunman, was on probation.

In January 2012, he had pled guilty to aggravated unlawful use of a weapon, and was sentenced to two years of probation.

Less than three months later, he was arrested and charged with breaking into a car. In July 2012, he was arrested for breaking into a different vehicle. In November 2012, he was arrested for misdemeanor trespassing. During his youth, he had also been arrested numerous times on charges ranging from robbery to battery to marijuana possession, and had spent time on juvenile probation.[7]

 

[2aguy]

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

Let me repeat an important point that you anti gunners do not understand........

Our judges, and our prosecutors are not locking up gun criminals...

Chicago is a shooting gallery every day....every day......the mayor and the police commissioner complain about guns every time their is a shooting......and what happens when criminals with guns are captured....


The Left’s Phony War on Guns, by Kevin D. Williamson, National Review



A 2014 study conducted by the Chicago Sun-Times found that in most cases, Cook County judges handed down the minimum sentence for gun possession, and in most cases, the criminals ended up serving far less than that, doing only a few months.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

FBI homicide table 8 puts it at 8,124 gun murders....

And you don't care about defensive gun uses because they are more than criminal murder uses of guns...of course you have to dismiss them....it shoots to pieces your whole point.........

And then you lie......you mix up people taking their own lives with murder......because that is the only way to get the number higher.....

And suicide does not count since non gun suicide is just about as high as gun suicide...and in other countries where they only allow criminals and cops to have guns, their suicide rates are higher than ours too.....


We have 357,000,000 guns in private hands......

1,500,000 defensive gun uses where lives are saved, crimes,stopped...even some mass shootings....

8,124 gun murders...90% of which are committed by people already legally banned from buying, owning or carrying guns....and 70-80% of their victims are also criminals....

So no...we don't have a gun problem......tell me we have 500,000 gun murders a year and I will get back to you

357,000,000 to. 8,124

Not a problem....

The real problem.......our justice system doesn't want to keep violent gun criminals,off of the streets....that is the problem........not normal gun owners


But you guys are obsessed with the people who don't use guns for crime...to the point you won't direct your energy at actual criminals and keeping them in jail?.

Cherry picking stats for purposes of confirmation bias.

Guns. Are. Killing. Us.

How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

And lol @ our justice system not keeping people in jail. Where are you from? We have about 5% of the world's population and 25% of its jail population. In raw numbers, we imprison more people than anyplace on earth, third world or otherwise. China and India can't touch us.

You're utterly clueless.

Let me repeat an important point that you anti gunners do not understand........

Our judges, and our prosecutors are not locking up gun criminals...

Chicago is a shooting gallery every day....every day......the mayor and the police commissioner complain about guns every time their is a shooting......and what happens when criminals with guns are captured....


The Left’s Phony War on Guns, by Kevin D. Williamson, National Review



A 2014 study conducted by the Chicago Sun-Times found that in most cases, Cook County judges handed down the minimum sentence for gun possession, and in most cases, the criminals ended up serving far less than that, doing only a few months.

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

 

[FA_Q2]

Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent criminal attack and to save lives....many times stopping mass public shooters.........vs........8,124 gun murders in 2014....

1,500,,000 to 8,124

That is a compelling interest in keeping Americans safe....

Again, bullshit. "Brandishing" a gun is not "using it".

You can bring up all the bullshit NRA statistics you want. The only one that really matters is: Which country has more gun deaths than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Yes, it is.

To deny that is asinine. You are attempting to define 'use' in a way that essentially precludes any possible position but your own. That is not going to fly.

Drawing a weapon in self defense that causes a criminal to flee is using a weapon. Not only is such the best case scenario for a self defense event, it also happens to be the most common by far.

Yeah, and the "survey" was done by alleged gun owners with alleged fantasy stories to tell about how they saved the day.

No motive to lie there at all.

Multiple studies have been done by multiple sources with differing backgrounds.

IOW, you reject this not because the studies are flawed but because you do not like the results. Then you wonder why your argument is so weak.

I don't CARE about defensive gun uses. What is unimpeachable truth is that we kill each other with guns in this country FAR more than in any civilized country in the world. You don't think that's a problem. You think 12,000 homicides per year are a fair price to pay so you can feel cool with your gun.

Personally, for me, if my recreational activity killed 30,000 people per year, I'd give it up and lobby for it to be banned. But that's just me. I'm not a selfish prick like you.

I already posted the facts that show gun restrictions dies not change the number of people that are killed thus showing that the guns are not the problem.

You have made an assumption that the 'recreational activity' is what is killing people. That is false. We have a high homicide rate in this nation for other reasons.

You claim I am selfish because I want to 'feel cool with my gun' (a blatant ad ad hominem fallacy as that is false but whatever) but as I see it you are the one being selfish here in using tragedy to push a political agenda that will solve nothing at all. Gun control will accomplish nothing in the way of stopping homicides or killing and that is the crux of the problem - a feel good measure that limits rights without results is unacceptable. The facts show that you will get no results from gun control measures.

 

[320 Years of History]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

 

[GaryDog]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

 

[2aguy]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

Wrong.....The Bill of Rights needs protection from people like you.....right now the 2nd Amendment is one of the most openly attacked...and just as if not more important than the others...since the others mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them......

Don't worry.....people like you are also going after the 1st and all the others.......

 

[beagle9]

With any rally that is organized or march that is conducted, should anyone be allowed to attend the rally with a loaded weapon without proper authorization? Otherwise to just show up with a weapon brandished upon your person, and claiming a right to do so under the Constitution ? For anyone wanting to attend a rally or march, and wanting to do so with a loaded weapon, (I have to ask), should they have to get a separate permit or a permit specifically stating the reason for having the gun coming along with them ? If the reason is not good enough, then should they be denide the permit for carrying a weapon at the specific rally applied for ? Should a bill be created that addresses the issue if there isn't one already ? If a rally is created or a march that is deemed peaceful by the organizers as just that, and it is stated in the permit being granted as such, then shouldn't there be added (due to the peaceful nature) a rule that states no weapons at all are allowed at the event, and a copy of it is to be given to the local police force in order to enforce the rule ?

Doesn't it depend if the rally, march or whatever is done on private or public property?

. Of course it does... Any rally, march, large gathering and/or event on public streets and/or on public property, should adhere to the codes, rules and guidelines that are set forth by the town, city or state for any activities such as what is mentioned above to be conducted in. Guns should be included in those rules and/or guidelines as pertaining too.

 

[GaryDog]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

Wrong.....The Bill of Rights needs protection from people like you.....right now the 2nd Amendment is one of the most openly attacked...and just as if not more important than the others...since the others mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them......

Don't worry.....people like you are also going after the 1st and all the others.......

The 2nd Amendment is meaningless in an era where our government has intercontinental ballistic missiles.....unless you think the ICBMs should be available for public purchase. They are, after all, just inanimate objects, right?

The 2nd Amendment is now purely a relic of the 18th century, used to justify the unrestrained participation in sporting activities.

 

[beagle9]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

Wrong.....The Bill of Rights needs protection from people like you.....right now the 2nd Amendment is one of the most openly attacked...and just as if not more important than the others...since the others mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them......

Don't worry.....people like you are also going after the 1st and all the others.......

The 2nd Amendment is meaningless in an era where our government has intercontinental ballistic missiles.....unless you think the ICBMs should be available for public purchase. They are, after all, just inanimate objects, right?

The 2nd Amendment is now purely a relic of the 18th century, used to justify the unrestrained participation in sporting activities.

WRONG.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

Wrong.....The Bill of Rights needs protection from people like you.....right now the 2nd Amendment is one of the most openly attacked...and just as if not more important than the others...since the others mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them......

Don't worry.....people like you are also going after the 1st and all the others.......

The 2nd Amendment is meaningless in an era where our government has intercontinental ballistic missiles.....unless you think the ICBMs should be available for public purchase. They are, after all, just inanimate objects, right?

The 2nd Amendment is now purely a relic of the 18th century, used to justify the unrestrained participation in sporting activities.

That may actually be true, but the wonderful thing about the COTUS is that it gives you a method of repealing portions of itself if you get enough votes.

Go get those votes.

 

[GaryDog]

Bingo. Five years in prison for every illegal weapon regardless of why you came in contact with police would cut down on gun crime more than any other single law.

But no, instead we have things like guy gets caught with a bag of weed and a gun. liberals scream "it's just weed" and the guy gets probation.

Stupid.

Red:
Can you please explain how that policy approach should be executed?

• FOURTH AMENDMENT-SEARCH AND SEIZURE
  
• The Evolution of Search-and-Seizure Law: How New Hampshire and Federal Law Differ
  
• Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure-A Second Class Constitutional Right?
  
• The Federal Search and Seizure Exclusionary Rule Its Origin, Development, Present Status and Trend

Please be sure to explain how to do so without violating one's 4th Amendment rights as well as addressing how the citizenry and your specified policy approach(s) mitigate or do not introduce "states rights" issues of their own and that merely trade one existing such "issue" for a different one.

Blue:
??? Well, if the gun is legally owned, it is "just weed," and it's only that, barring extenuating circumstances, if the "guy" is caught by state law enforcement personnel in a state that hasn't legalized weed sales, use, and/or possession. Now if states pass laws that say one cannot be in proximate possession of weed and guns simultaneously, that's a different matter.

Obviously, the only amendment that matters is the 2nd amendment. What is this 4th amendment you speak of??? /sarcasm

Wrong.....The Bill of Rights needs protection from people like you.....right now the 2nd Amendment is one of the most openly attacked...and just as if not more important than the others...since the others mean nothing if the government chooses to ignore them......

Don't worry.....people like you are also going after the 1st and all the others.......

The 2nd Amendment is meaningless in an era where our government has intercontinental ballistic missiles.....unless you think the ICBMs should be available for public purchase. They are, after all, just inanimate objects, right?

The 2nd Amendment is now purely a relic of the 18th century, used to justify the unrestrained participation in sporting activities.

That may actually be true, but the wonderful thing about the COTUS is that it gives you a method of repealing portions of itself if you get enough votes.

Go get those votes.

Votes do not matter when the NRA has bought and paid for nearly every member of Congress. What hope do votes have?

Oh I see, you're under the impression this is a Democracy.