Is there a third way?

[Nika2013]

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation

The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. MikeK

Excellent...Can we do it? Will it save the system that we have? I think you answered this..

 

[Nika2013]

Do you really believe this is true?....I think they are conservative on many issues, such as national security.....Thank you for the post...I always love the little elf avatar

 

[Nika2013]

""We" see it? who is "we"?

Workers are individuals.
If they fail to see that, then they will be exploited by the capitalist or the socialist - whatever label they decide to give their master.

The third way you are looking for is not in between capitalism and socialism, it is outside of either.

Stop reading philosopher's tripe (philosophy is B.S.)
I recommend thinking for yourself.
Last edited by arKangel; Today at 12:46 AM. ArKangel

Actually, everyone I know in real life thinks that I think for myself more than any others that they know...The "we" that I speak of contains all of those who express discontent with the current system...It appears from your words that you are advocating isolationism. One can be an individual and still care for the feelings of discontent of others in terms of the system. You are saying, "Drop all labels and choose your own path"..but this is not possible for many...As a group...maybe...and that is what this thread is about...I can also read the words of others and pick and choose what is important to my own life...
Give an example of a third way that an entire group can take...not just one person on his own...Ok...I should have said, present a third way without labels...Are you stating that people are individuals first and workers, second and that the work and the system should not define the individual? I find this to be a wholly impossible situation unless one works for one's self (which I do) Sorry...it is late...

 

[Obamanation]

I think the sickness of JEALOUSY is doing far more to hurt America, than the sickness of greed --- but both are sins that can destroy us.

 

[editec]

I can think of no system where the power granted to any form of government ultimately is not abused by those in power.

I suspect that all forms of government really have a shelf life when they aren't so oppressive and unfair, But after that shelf life, the inherent flaws in human nature play on those with power and finally their government is corrupted.

The Libertarains, people I am constantly mocking as being unrealistic, have come up with some plans (like anarcho-capitalism) that SEEM to make sense, but that I think are as doomed as every other system.

They believe that by not centralizing power in government, and by the friction of market forces in an unregulated environment, something like social justice prevails.

I think that outcome is about as unlikely as the MARXIST's concept that organized Soviets will be just because the workers will be by nature impervious to elitism, but hey...what do I know?

Perhaps human nature will change in a society where nobody is really in charge.

But I rather doubt that.

I think in a society where nobody is in charge, ultimately warlordism commences that leads to what?

First to warlordism anarchy, followed by one or some cabal of warlords, who then create their own version of an highly organized government supported by police state oppression.

 

[Votto]

But, they are not working for a lot of people, so there must be something that would work... By this I mean that the Arab Spring is no more an anomaly (as protest) than the anti-austerity movement of Greece...or the Occupy Wall Street movement in America, or the new Marxist movement in Britain and Germany. All, are saying that the systems are not working and if we do not want a Marxian world, we must find something new, or it will fill the vacuum. Or, how do we fix what we have?

What I shy away from are systems that are meant to "work" for all people.

In short, there is no perfect system and there never will be. The more you try to invent such a system the more utopian and Marxist and totalitarian you tend to become. Freedom is your best bet.

Now we are stuck with globalists who want a new world order just like Hitler invisioned, only a kinder gentler one. LOL. They will continue to push for it until they get it, only, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

 

[PratchettFan]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

"The man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]


The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. And here is how to do that.

1) Prohibit accumulation of personal wealth in excess of twenty million dollars.

2) Prohibit the "donating" of money or anything of material value to any political incumbent or candidate for political office. Impose severe criminal penalties for the accepting of any such "donation" and for the offering of any such donation or gift.

3) Establish a federal election tax for the purpose of financing the distribution of an informational booklet outlining the platform of candidates for elected political offices (candidates to be selected by public poll). Require broadcast media to provide, gratis, a reasonable amount of equal time coverage of each candidate's platform.

Individual states must adopt similar policies for state elections.

The amounts collected by all election taxes will be more than compensated by the elimination of corruption. This policy will eliminate politicians by attracting statesmen.

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation.

Neither of your suggestions will work. At best, it will simply provide another avenue of corruption. There is only one way to end corruption and corporate greed. Kill every man, woman and child on the planet.

The problem with every utopian idea is that they never take into account that the people who are going to populate that "perfect society" are human beings - who are not perfect. The people who rise to power within that society are going to be the people who want power, not the people who would use power for the betterment of all. People who desire power tend not to be selfless. The people who would use power for the betterment of all, tend not to seek power.

There is no such thing as a perfect society. No such thing as a society free of corruption and greed. The best you can do is set up a system which keeps those things to a manageable level without crushing the population under a totalitarian regime. I think the United States does a pretty good job with that.

 

[editec]

There is no such thing as a perfect society. No such thing as a society free of corruption and greed. The best you can do is set up a system which keeps those things to a manageable level without crushing the population under a totalitarian regime. I think the United States does a pretty good job with that.

I think the US used to do a pretty good job.

I think we've gone over the event horizon into police state fascism.

I think we're already there and what's more I think its going to get much much worse, too.

 

[Votto]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

"The man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]


The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. And here is how to do that.

1) Prohibit accumulation of personal wealth in excess of twenty million dollars.

2) Prohibit the "donating" of money or anything of material value to any political incumbent or candidate for political office. Impose severe criminal penalties for the accepting of any such "donation" and for the offering of any such donation or gift.

3) Establish a federal election tax for the purpose of financing the distribution of an informational booklet outlining the platform of candidates for elected political offices (candidates to be selected by public poll). Require broadcast media to provide, gratis, a reasonable amount of equal time coverage of each candidate's platform.

Individual states must adopt similar policies for state elections.

The amounts collected by all election taxes will be more than compensated by the elimination of corruption. This policy will eliminate politicians by attracting statesmen.

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation.

Neither of your suggestions will work. At best, it will simply provide another avenue of corruption. There is only one way to end corruption and corporate greed. Kill every man, woman and child on the planet.

The problem with every utopian idea is that they never take into account that the people who are going to populate that "perfect society" are human beings - who are not perfect. The people who rise to power within that society are going to be the people who want power, not the people who would use power for the betterment of all. People who desire power tend not to be selfless. The people who would use power for the betterment of all, tend not to seek power.

There is no such thing as a perfect society. No such thing as a society free of corruption and greed. The best you can do is set up a system which keeps those things to a manageable level without crushing the population under a totalitarian regime. I think the United States does a pretty good job with that.

But the mantra is always to surrender a little more of your freedom in the pursuit of social justice. Just lay down your arms, surrender your right to due process if need be, pay more of your fair share etc. There is no end to it, nor will there be an end to our freedoms being usurped.

 

[PratchettFan]

There is no such thing as a perfect society. No such thing as a society free of corruption and greed. The best you can do is set up a system which keeps those things to a manageable level without crushing the population under a totalitarian regime. I think the United States does a pretty good job with that.

I think the US used to do a pretty good job.

I think we've gone over the event horizon into police state fascism.

I think we're already there and what's more I think its going to get much much worse, too.

And I think that is an absurd assertion. Complete and utter nonsense. Case in point, you're not in jail for saying what you just said. Try doing that in an actual police state and see what happens.

 

[PratchettFan]

"The man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]


The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. And here is how to do that.

1) Prohibit accumulation of personal wealth in excess of twenty million dollars.

2) Prohibit the "donating" of money or anything of material value to any political incumbent or candidate for political office. Impose severe criminal penalties for the accepting of any such "donation" and for the offering of any such donation or gift.

3) Establish a federal election tax for the purpose of financing the distribution of an informational booklet outlining the platform of candidates for elected political offices (candidates to be selected by public poll). Require broadcast media to provide, gratis, a reasonable amount of equal time coverage of each candidate's platform.

Individual states must adopt similar policies for state elections.

The amounts collected by all election taxes will be more than compensated by the elimination of corruption. This policy will eliminate politicians by attracting statesmen.

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation.

Neither of your suggestions will work. At best, it will simply provide another avenue of corruption. There is only one way to end corruption and corporate greed. Kill every man, woman and child on the planet.

The problem with every utopian idea is that they never take into account that the people who are going to populate that "perfect society" are human beings - who are not perfect. The people who rise to power within that society are going to be the people who want power, not the people who would use power for the betterment of all. People who desire power tend not to be selfless. The people who would use power for the betterment of all, tend not to seek power.

There is no such thing as a perfect society. No such thing as a society free of corruption and greed. The best you can do is set up a system which keeps those things to a manageable level without crushing the population under a totalitarian regime. I think the United States does a pretty good job with that.

But the mantra is always to surrender a little more of your freedom in the pursuit of social justice. Just lay down your arms, surrender your right to due process if need be, pay more of your fair share etc. There is no end to it, nor will there be an end to our freedoms being usurped.

Is that the mantra? Funny I've never heard that mantra. At least not from anyone who was actually suggesting it.

The only law I can think of which even comes close to what you are talking about is the Patriot Act. Funny name for something so clearly unpatriotic. Bad law. It needs to go. But it had tremendous support at the time because everyone was terrified. However, what is happening to the people who are opposing the law now? How many of them have been arrested for treason?

 

[MikeK]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

"The man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]


The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. And here is how to do that.

1) Prohibit accumulation of personal wealth in excess of twenty million dollars.

2) Prohibit the "donating" of money or anything of material value to any political incumbent or candidate for political office. Impose severe criminal penalties for the accepting of any such "donation" and for the offering of any such donation or gift.

3) Establish a federal election tax for the purpose of financing the distribution of an informational booklet outlining the platform of candidates for elected political offices (candidates to be selected by public poll). Require broadcast media to provide, gratis, a reasonable amount of equal time coverage of each candidate's platform.

Individual states must adopt similar policies for state elections.

The amounts collected by all election taxes will be more than compensated by the elimination of corruption. This policy will eliminate politicians by attracting statesmen.

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation.

Neither of your suggestions will work.

Why?

At best, it will simply provide another avenue of corruption.

Such as? (Be specific.)

There is only one way to end corruption and corporate greed. Kill every man, woman and child on the planet.

You are fatalistically mistaken. Greed and corruption are rampant in our society because we have allowed them to be. And we have allowed it because we've been gradually conditioned to do so by clever political manipulation. But the indoctrination can easily be reversed by decisive political action. All it will take is to recognize the evil and to purge it via the force of Law.

The problem lies in convincing the defeatists among us of how simple the solution is.

 

[MikeK]

I think the sickness of JEALOUSY is doing far more to hurt America, than the sickness of greed --- but both are sins that can destroy us.

In spite of the fact that greed is a malignancy which is slowly and quite obviously destroying the fabric and spirit of this Nation, every time a voice is raised in opposition to the effects of greed in our social structure and the influence of money on our political system, some water-carrier for the emerging corporatocracy attributes the opposition to jealousy -- an idea which is comparable to suspecting jealousy as the motive for wishing to eradicate organized crime.

Those who are sufficiently naive as to believe that jealousy is behind the wish to purge the cancers of greed and political corruption from our society need to understand the difference between wealth and excessive wealth.

Twenty million dollars is wealth. With it one can own two fine, nicely furnished homes, several fine cars, fine clothing, pay for several university educations, afford the best medical insurance, and lead a life of comfortable leisure. To not be satisfied with that level of wealth is manifest greed. It is perversion. And left to flourish it quickly becomes infectious and destructive.

Personal assets in excess of twenty million dollars is excessive wealth -- and another word for excessive wealth is power! It is the kind of power which eventually will result in enslavement of the 99% majority of the American population. This will occur incrementally, via an insidious process which we presently are watching take place. Not to recognize this is to be willfully blind to the obvious and/or to be intimidated by the prospect of taking the necessary action to correct the situation. The first step toward correction is becoming aware and accepting the obvious.

Envy is natural and is not the same as jealousy. It is natural to envy wealth, but to envy excessive wealth is perverse and reveals a troubling sense of personal inadequacy and the sickness of greed.

The formula is quite simple: Wealth is good. Excessive wealth is bad.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

…is there a third way?

Yes, pragmatism.

But Americans hate the ‘p’ word, and insist on clinging blindly to comforting, but failed, political and economic doctrine and dogma.

 

[Michelle420]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

I really don't know how we can as a group form a 3rd system because people are driven by fear not idealism and anything born out of fear is going to be problematic.

 

[PaulS1950]

It used to be that if you wanted to "get ahead" you used your skills to do so. Fewer people today seem interested in working to get ahead and would rather work just hard enough to maintain their "comfort level" which for some is very low by my standards.

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

Eisenhower Republicanism is about as close as the United States ever got to moving in the right direction across the board. Republicans weren't the party of crazy religious freaks and microdicked neocon warmongers; Democrats hadn't become the party of life's physical losers and still understood the need for fiscal responsibility. Business understood and accepted accountability to communities. Private sector unions were still on the right side of reason, federal workers were not unionized, women and minorities were making headway toward full legal enfranchisement, citizens were respected by government; things were getting better for all Americans.

Then came Johnson and Nixon. Just when it seemed like it couldn't get any worse, a bobbleheaded corporate puppet seduced Halfwit America into believing what he said while what he did was triple the national debt in peacetime, pioneer bailouts for banks and Wall Street, and shadow box a bankrupt empire. By the end of the 1980s, the servant had become the master; government came to control more of America under Reagan than it had in peacetime in US history. His heirs, the mama's boy Clinton and the mama's boy and scumball inheritor Junebug Bush, sold out the middle class, and Junebug took big government into new territory, founding a "ministry of fear", titling it with the Nazi sounding moniker "Homeland Security", and now citizens suck hind tit while corporations and human potential enthusiasts celebrate the destruction of the greatest culture since The Raj collapsed.

Now everyone has to pay the price for being asleep at the wheel for the 28 years leading up to 2008.

Good. That is how it should be.

For now. And there is a "third way"...

The minute a new political party achieves critical mass (critical mass defined as, "too big to ignore") America makes the turn forward toward better government. Triangulation works. Corporations own both major parties today. A third party could be bought, but that will take time. Until it is bought a third party would force both existing parties to recognize citizens rights and do something to advance economic prospects at the grassroots instead of at just the top - where political bribes (now legal thanks to corruption in both major parties) come from.

 

[cutter]

Who's John Gault?

 

[PaulS1950]

There is no "one, right way" to make an economy work for all individuals.
some folks like to "dicker" while others want a price quoted and if it seems fair then they will pay it. Some want low prices regardless of quality and others want name brands regardless of price. I want a level of quality and a good price and name brands mean little to me.
No matter what your personal catagory it will never fit everyone else. The freedom to choose is of paramount importance.

 

[dblack]

…is there a third way?

Yes, pragmatism.

But Americans hate the ‘p’ word, and insist on clinging blindly to comforting, but failed, political and economic doctrine and dogma.

The problem with appeals to "pragmatism" is that they assume a common goal. Which is of course the purpose of ideology.