Zone1 is the Vatican in the bible?

[Cougarbear]

As baptism is not a covenant, whatever point you had hoped to make doesn't pertain or work.

Clueless!

 

[Meriweather]

So, Catholics dunk the infant completely under water? No, they sprinkle water over them. No? Oh but you did. It’s inferred.

Inferred by you, perhaps, not by Catholics. No sprinkling. Let's not go into the weeds of when non-Catholics tell Catholics what Catholics are "really" doing. As I've said in the past, I am not going to pursue these lies.

 

[Meriweather]

Then you don’t know what a covenant is. Your words used the concept of a covenant.

I am telling you Catholic baptism is not a covenant, it is a Sacrament.

Perhaps Mormons believe the baptism constitutes a covenant? Catholics do not.

In Catholicism there is a huge difference between a covenant and a Sacrament. My words used the concept of Sacrament. There is no reason or need to infer any other definition. The Catholic faith lists seven sacraments, of which Baptism, a sacrament of initiation, is the first of the seven.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, partaking of a sacrament or performing an ordinance such as baptism is a covenant by definition.

Your definition perhaps, not ours. Catholics differentiate between the Biblical Covenants and Sacraments. perhaps Mormons don't have this differentiation between Biblical Covenants and their ordinances?

 

[Meriweather]

Clueless!

You asked me about Catholic Baptism. I give you Catholic teaching. You call me clueless and persist in telling me what Catholics are "really" about.

Keep in mind that last night you said something odd about Catholic baptism so I asked you about Mormon baptism so I might better understand how you came to a rather warped understanding of baptism into the Catholic faith. Catholic baptism is clearly different from Mormon baptism. I don't see that as much of a problem.

 

[Cougarbear]

Inferred by you, perhaps, not by Catholics. No sprinkling. Let's not go into the weeds of when non-Catholics tell Catholics what Catholics are "really" doing. As I've said in the past, I am not going to pursue these lies.

Explain how the infants are then baptized. Because you know it’s by sprinkling. They pour or I’d call it sprinkle water.

 

[Cougarbear]

Your definition perhaps, not ours. Catholics differentiate between the Biblical Covenants and Sacraments. perhaps Mormons don't have this differentiation between Biblical Covenants and their ordinances?

You wrote, “With our baptism also comes the remission of sins, or Christ promise that sins are forgiven.”
The word “promise” signifies a covenant. When studying forgiveness, we find that there is a condition that has to be met by mankind when they ask for forgiveness. If “I” do this, then “You” do that.

 

[Meriweather]

You wrote, “With our baptism also comes the remission of sins, or Christ promise that sins are forgiven.”
The word “promise” signifies a covenant. When studying forgiveness, we find that there is a condition that has to be met by mankind when they ask for forgiveness. If “I” do this, then “You” do that.

Okay, then change it to "Christ saying" rather than "Christ's promise" as that bugs you so much.

For some reason you, a Mormon, want a Catholic Sacrament to be a Covenant. Why is that?

Meanwhile, Biblical Covenants are most often signified by blood. The Abraham Covenant, the Noachide Covenant, the New Covenant which is the redemption of the world and the way of salvation being opened to everyone. For Catholics, there is a distinction between Covenants with God and the Sacraments Christ instituted through his life here on earth.

If the Mormon faith wants to teach Mormons differently, I could not care less and I don't see that Mormons need to be disturbed by what another denomination(s) is doing differently.

I simply set forth Catholic teaching and the perspective Catholics have of baptism and its affects on this life, the life we live day to day, day by day.

 

[surada]

Some think the Pope is 666 or will be the anti-Christ.

Sounds like something one of the fringe sects would say.

 

[Cougarbear]

Okay, then change it to "Christ saying" rather than "Christ's promise" as that bugs you so much.

For some reason you, a Mormon, want a Catholic Sacrament to be a Covenant. Why is that?

Meanwhile, Biblical Covenants are most often signified by blood. The Abraham Covenant, the Noachide Covenant, the New Covenant which is the redemption of the world and the way of salvation being opened to everyone. For Catholics, there is a distinction between Covenants with God and the Sacraments Christ instituted through his life here on earth.

If the Mormon faith wants to teach Mormons differently, I could not care less and I don't see that Mormons need to be disturbed by what another denomination(s) is doing differently.

I simply set forth Catholic teaching and the perspective Catholics have of baptism and its affects on this life, the life we live day to day, day by day.

It’s why Catholic teachings are false. Oh, they certainly teach Christ. The Catholics at the school I taught at were wonderful people. The kids were great as well. But, these errors in doctrine are the craftiness that blind men (and women). Doctrines of men mingled with scripture. It’s why the authority was lost centuries ago by the fallen Bishops especially of Rome. Losing the meaning of baptism and confirmation.
Gratefully, the rests of the Church and priesthood authority has been restored as prophesied by OT and NT Apostles and Prophets. The true meaning, understanding is again known to mankind. At least for those who take advantage of this. This truly is the time of restitution of all things of God. Doctrine, covenants, sacraments and commandments. Oh, and Temples again.

 

[Cougarbear]

Sounds like something one of the fringe sects would say.

The Book of Revelation

 

[Votar Roja]

is the Vatican in the bible?

A total load of bull crap

 

[Votar Roja]

(A brief excerpt from the booklet “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”)[/B]

QUOTE:

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

EXCERPT SOURCE: Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

 

[surada]

It’s why Catholic teachings are false. Oh, they certainly teach Christ. The Catholics at the school I taught at were wonderful people. The kids were great as well. But, these errors in doctrine are the craftiness that blind men (and women). Doctrines of men mingled with scripture. It’s why the authority was lost centuries ago by the fallen Bishops especially of Rome. Losing the meaning of baptism and confirmation.
Gratefully, the rests of the Church and priesthood authority has been restored as prophesied by OT and NT Apostles and Prophets. The true meaning, understanding is again known to mankind. At least for those who take advantage of this. This truly is the time of restitution of all things of God. Doctrine, covenants, sacraments and commandments. Oh, and Temples again.

But, your doctrine relies on the writings Joseph Smith!

 

[surada]

The Book of Revelation

Revelation was written as a letter to seven churches in the first century. Most of the symbolism is understandable to us in that context. They understood it perfectly. I love that it starts out with I John, your brother in tribulation...

 

[zaangalewa]

Obviously I have no intention answering all this garbage. But, I will pick out certain ones for your edification.
1. Of course I'm not Catholic.

Aha. This suspicion I had from the beginning - specially because you are an anti-Catholic.

It's a great an abominable church that has distorted the everlasting ordinances of Jesus Christ.

Eh?

But,

¿But?

I did teach math,

You did teach math? ... Whoow ... Ever heard something from "logic"?

PE and coached basketball at St. Bonaventure High School in Ventura, California.

Aha. What a fortunate coincidence.

I was there for 16 years. Took over for my dad teaching math when he died. He was Jewish.

Your father was a Jew and you was a teacher in a Catholic school who not understands what Catholics (and Jews) say? Which form of absurdity is this now?

2. Actually, I'm not a "Mormon." I'm a Latter-day Saint in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ufff ... what a luck that I am not an US-American. I guess this means something.

Now, what would a Church have to do with Christianity when named by the Savior's name, Jesus Christ?

Counterquestion: What has scientology to do with science except less than nothing? Scientology has not even anything to do with religion. Scientology is only a criminal organisation - nothing else.

In the New Testament, the members of the Lord's Church called themselves "Saints." They did not call themselves Christians.

Exactly. We have been called "Christians" from others. But we overtook this name immediatelly. It was very clear. Saints exist in all religions.

In fact, it was those who hated Christians that started calling them Christians.

I don't know now whether they hated us or not - and whether this had been a deprecating expressionsor not - but what can I say? The expression "Christians" is today not unknown - and some think this comes from "criminals" and other think this comes from "saints".

1. We teach that there is a Godhead of three personages, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?

Not all Christians believe(d) this. Theoderic rex for example had been an Arian. The Vandals - nice people by the way but sometimes a little rough - also had been Arians.

2. We teach that Jesus Christ came to this earth through a virgin birth. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?

Yea. Mary is Mary. Nothing compares to her.

3. We teach that Jesus Christ atoned for our sins when we repent of our sins. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?

Hmm ... hmhmhm ... hmhmhmhmhmhmhm ... I would say first of all is important to see that the allmighty god suffered in Jesus Christ helpless with us.

4. We believe through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all mankind will be resurrected as well. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?
5. We believe that through baptism of the dead, the dead will rise. 1Cor. 15:29. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?

You like to baptize a dead person? How? ... Sorry ... You are really spooky. ... When I take the picture of a baptized baby and compare it with the picture of ... no no ... no. I prefer such pictures:

6. We believe that mankind can be saved by grace after all we do (Faith and faith without works is dead). Doesn't the Catholic Church teach this? Don't all Christians teach this?

Joseph Smith was once asked what our Church believes and teaches. He gave a list of 13 Articles of Faith. Here they are:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance, ; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Why spoke Mr. Joseph Smith in this text "we"? Point 2 for example makes in my form to think not a big sense at all - specially is not punishment the centre. The centre is to come home to god father in the best of all possible ways. In point 3 I have not any idea what the word "saved" means and why all mankind should be saved - and what for heavens sake means to obey laws when Paulus said the opposite? And what is ordinance of the gospel? Means ordinance sacrament? Then it would be nonsense. A Gospel is a text - and not a sacrament. Sense makes to say to follow the spirit of the gospels. ... Whatever ... When I read all this stuff which you say here then I do not understand why you have a problem to be called "Mormon" when you believe the "book of Mormon" - whatever this could be - is the word of god. ... We made the bible exactly on reason to be sure that the books in this "book of the books" are authentic. The 'book of Mormon' is not part of the bible - so it is not authentic.

 

[Meriweather]

It’s why Catholic teachings are false. Oh, they certainly teach Christ. The Catholics at the school I taught at were wonderful people. The kids were great as well. But, these errors in doctrine are the craftiness that blind men (and women). Doctrines of men mingled with scripture. It’s why the authority was lost centuries ago by the fallen Bishops especially of Rome. Losing the meaning of baptism and confirmation.
Gratefully, the rests of the Church and priesthood authority has been restored as prophesied by OT and NT Apostles and Prophets. The true meaning, understanding is again known to mankind. At least for those who take advantage of this. This truly is the time of restitution of all things of God. Doctrine, covenants, sacraments and commandments. Oh, and Temples again.

1. I was confused by how you perceived Catholic baptism, so to better understand your perception, I asked you about Mormon baptism. When you responded, the fog cleared. Mormons and Catholics may use the same word, "Baptism", but to each it means something entirely different from the other. I thanked you for this information. For me, that would be the end.

2. Your request for me to explain Catholic baptism, opened things up again. I'll note, to me, your post asking about Catholic baptism came across as a rather haughty demand that did not bode well. Shrugged that aside, because the printed word often comes across differently than it would if spoken with a smile.

3. I clearly laid out the Catholic view of baptism, and you dare to tell me that is not what Catholics are "really" doing or "really" believe.

4. A college journalism course covering propaganda, noted to beware any person or group who feels they must start by denigrating or tearing down what came before. They are terrified of the strength of the older tradition and their own frailty in comparison. So throw a lot of mud and do a lot of sneering. The Catholic faith withstands this and more from Mormons.

5. Another propagandist strategy is to build a straw man and claim that is what the older/stronger institution/business is "really" about or "really" doing. This is exactly what you did/are doing with Catholic baptism. You (or Mormons) come across as absolutely desperate that another, older purpose of baptism be proven wrong with the Mormon claim Catholics "lost the priesthood" and that God even took it away from them. Always gives me a chuckle.

6. By comparison, note the strength of Islam stands without a need to tear down older traditions. They stand along side them.

Here's the deal: Catholics recognize and accept we are a part of a broken humanity. As such, we realize even as a Church, we will stumble. We also have a powerful faith that as we walk with God, as we walk in the Way of Christ, the Holy Spirit will lead us to repentance and correction. Further, the Church has never been one person (Pope or Bishop) doing wrong. The Church is the entire Body of Christ while we as individuals acknowledge that we, individually are part of a broken humanity. It is why we value the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So, when you gleefully point to a Pope and chortle, "They lost the priesthood!" we simply smile, shake our heads, and move on. Our priesthood is not in a pope or any single individual. Our priesthood is Christ, and with our baptism, each of us (as much as any pope) enter into becoming and being priest, prophet, king in the Body of Christ. Our great Popes understand this. After all, when they are no more, the Church still is. As it ever will be for Christ is our cornerstone.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

John 16:16 - Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will ...

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”... Read verse in New International Version

www.biblestudytools.com

In Revelation Jesus says it will be soon within a generation..

How did you confound scripture with the book of Nephi, Cyrus Schofield and Hal Lindsey?

The foreign garrisons that fought under Vespasian and Titus assembled at Megiddo in 67 AD.

greetings
I don't know this book, but I'm familiar with some of Hal Lindsey's teachings about Islam, they are a key player as you see.
The Vatican is sleeping with the enemy, Islam this I know to be true, but I see many skeptics.
I need time to look into this.

 

[Cougarbear]

But, your doctrine relies on the writings Joseph Smith!

No, the doctrine relies on the testimony and witness of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet exactly as taught. It's the same Holy Ghost that testifies that Jesus Christ lives and is the head of his Church, atoned for our sins and gave us hope of life after death in the resurrection. Only through prophets will God speak to his children on earth. He has spoken.

 

[Cougarbear]

Revelation was written as a letter to seven churches in the first century. Most of the symbolism is understandable to us in that context. They understood it perfectly. I love that it starts out with I John, your brother in tribulation...

John was in tribulation as he was in prison. The rest of the church was falling into apostasy which is tribulation. Revelation was written to anyone who would read and understand that he was speaking of the end of days.