Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[RoccoR]

Bumberclyde, et al,

"Do" I hate Arabs? Or, are the observations I made "false and misleading?"

Rocco hates arabs, that much is plain to see.

(COMMENT)

There is no culture, and no country of power, that does not have dark parts in their past that haunts their history.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

The al-Qassam followers often speak about "natural rights" of the Palestinian, and the fact that they are ignored by the greater body of the UN. That these rights should be recognized and accepted as the Palestinian interprets them. The cling to the notion of being deprived, and displaced --- not being afforded some rights behind their cause. This idea is rooted in nearly every basic theme the Palestinian put forth; whether we speak of the original reasons they declined the portion of their partition in Resolution 181 (II), or their Declaration of Independence.

​

Angry?

And rightly so. They are correct.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The disenfranchised nearly always jump to say: "We had every right to be angry."

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

The al-Qassam followers often speak about "natural rights" of the Palestinian, and the fact that they are ignored by the greater body of the UN. That these rights should be recognized and accepted as the Palestinian interprets them. The cling to the notion of being deprived, and displaced --- not being afforded some rights behind their cause. This idea is rooted in nearly every basic theme the Palestinian put forth; whether we speak of the original reasons they declined the portion of their partition in Resolution 181 (II), or their Declaration of Independence.

​

Angry?

And rightly so. They are correct.

(COMMENT)

It is important to remember that, no matter what agreements are made (if any) from the talks underway at this moment, the Arab-Palestinian is going to walk away with (essentially) less than they were offered in GA Resolution 181(II); had they accepted those initial conditions. So, no matter how badly they thought they were treated them (an unfounded perception), the consequence of their actions is still not fully comprehended.

What was the cost of the conflict? Whether we talk about the territory before Israeli independence, or after Israeli independence, the ultimate goal of the Arab Palestinian was to take totally control of all the territory under the former Mandate (less the Hashemite Kingdom). It is a goal that some Arab Palestinians still hold today; a concept is still held over in the basic principles noted in both the HAMAS Covenant and the PNA Charter. And that failed bid to achieve that, either by the insurgency before Israeli independence, or by war after Israeli independence, is the consequence they have to live with today. Yes, they probably have a right to be angry, but who should they by angry with (how about themselves)? (Yes, the criminal is always angry at the police that arrests them. Is that a justification for more crime?)

Your response: "Angry? And rightly so. They are correct" -- merely shows that my description is correct. It is not a justification for their actions --- right or wrong.

Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts.

SOURCE: Secretary-General SG/SM/14764 SC/10883

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The disenfranchised nearly always jump to say: "We had every right to be angry."

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

The al-Qassam followers often speak about "natural rights" of the Palestinian, and the fact that they are ignored by the greater body of the UN. That these rights should be recognized and accepted as the Palestinian interprets them. The cling to the notion of being deprived, and displaced --- not being afforded some rights behind their cause. This idea is rooted in nearly every basic theme the Palestinian put forth; whether we speak of the original reasons they declined the portion of their partition in Resolution 181 (II), or their Declaration of Independence.

​

Angry?

And rightly so. They are correct.

(COMMENT)

It is important to remember that, no matter what agreements are made (if any) from the talks underway at this moment, the Arab-Palestinian is going to walk away with (essentially) less than they were offered in GA Resolution 181(II); had they accepted those initial conditions. So, no matter how badly they thought they were treated them (an unfounded perception), the consequence of their actions is still not fully comprehended.

What was the cost of the conflict? Whether we talk about the territory before Israeli independence, or after Israeli independence, the ultimate goal of the Arab Palestinian was to take totally control of all the territory under the former Mandate (less the Hashemite Kingdom). It is a goal that some Arab Palestinians still hold today; a concept is still held over in the basic principles noted in both the HAMAS Covenant and the PNA Charter. And that failed bid to achieve that, either by the insurgency before Israeli independence, or by war after Israeli independence, is the consequence they have to live with today. Yes, they probably have a right to be angry, but who should they by angry with (how about themselves)? (Yes, the criminal is always angry at the police that arrests them. Is that a justification for more crime?)

Your response: "Angry? And rightly so. They are correct" -- merely shows that my description is correct. It is not a justification for their actions --- right or wrong.

Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts.

SOURCE: Secretary-General SG/SM/14764 SC/10883

Most Respectfully,
R

You seem to miss the fact that the Palestinians were at home minding their own business when the criminals came down from Europe and kicked therm off their land.

The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression."

Rump-Palestine (the few disconnected slivers of land that are still under Palestinian control) is like a chicken with its head freshly cut off...

It runs frantically about the barnyard, flapping its wings, making a great deal of noise, and spouting great geysers of blood, but, after a little while, it figures-out that it's dead, it lies down decently, and is still...

The score is: Israel 65, Palestine 0 --- loser walks --- and we're down to the last two minutes on the game-clock...

Tick... tick... tick...

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression."

Rump-Palestine (the few disconnected slivers of land that are still under Palestinian control) is like a chicken with its head freshly cut off...

It runs frantically about the barnyard, flapping its wings, making a great deal of noise, and spouting great geysers of blood, but, after a little while, it figures-out that it's dead, it lies down decently, and is still...

The score is: Israel 65, Palestine 0 --- loser walks --- and we're down to the last two minutes on the game-clock...

Tick... tick... tick...

Israel is shooting itself in the foot. The more it steals, the more the world turns against it.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Rocco hates arabs, that much is plain to see.

Better than being an Arab lover, I'm sure...

Then again, most folks who take-up the Israeli side in this long-standing 'contest' don't hate Arabs...

They just don't like 'em very much, or just don't think very highly of them...

Big difference...

And quite an understandable perception, when compared side-by-side against the vitality and culture and courage and industry of the Jews of Israel...

Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another unique perspective held by Palestinians.

P F Tinmore, et al,

The disenfranchised nearly always jump to say: "We had every right to be angry."

Angry?

And rightly so. They are correct.

(COMMENT)

It is important to remember that, no matter what agreements are made (if any) from the talks underway at this moment, the Arab-Palestinian is going to walk away with (essentially) less than they were offered in GA Resolution 181(II); had they accepted those initial conditions. So, no matter how badly they thought they were treated them (an unfounded perception), the consequence of their actions is still not fully comprehended.

What was the cost of the conflict? Whether we talk about the territory before Israeli independence, or after Israeli independence, the ultimate goal of the Arab Palestinian was to take totally control of all the territory under the former Mandate (less the Hashemite Kingdom). It is a goal that some Arab Palestinians still hold today; a concept is still held over in the basic principles noted in both the HAMAS Covenant and the PNA Charter. And that failed bid to achieve that, either by the insurgency before Israeli independence, or by war after Israeli independence, is the consequence they have to live with today. Yes, they probably have a right to be angry, but who should they by angry with (how about themselves)? (Yes, the criminal is always angry at the police that arrests them. Is that a justification for more crime?)

Your response: "Angry? And rightly so. They are correct" -- merely shows that my description is correct. It is not a justification for their actions --- right or wrong.

Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts.

SOURCE: Secretary-General SG/SM/14764 SC/10883

Most Respectfully,
R

You seem to miss the fact that the Palestinians were at home minding their own business when the criminals came down from Europe and kicked therm off their land.

The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression.

(COMMENT)

The venerated Izz al-Qassam, the Syrian namesake for today's rocket and the armed Palestinian Brigade, was very active anti-Zionist and anti-Mandate movement in the 1930's; and he was the first. Sheikh al-Qassam not only preached Jihad, but participated in attacks on Jewish Settlers. Together with Hajj Amin al-Husseini, Prince Rashed Al Khuzai, Sheikh Methkal Al-Fayez, and Sheikh Hadeetha Al-Kraisha --- Sheikh al-Qassam all were involved in the emergence of the Palestinian Liberation movements, even well before the rise of the counter force --- The Irgun; which splintered off from the "The Watchman" of the Haganah.

(Palestinians were at home minding their own business)

It is disingenuous to suggest that the peaceful Arabs of the territory were just quietly sitting at home, not bothering anyone, and were suddenly and most violently set upon by the wicked Jews. No, that is not quite how it was. Even before the Balfour Declaration (1917), the Bar-Giora (1907) [Jewish defense force of the Second Aliyah, and forerunner of the Hashomer] and the Hashomer ["The Watchman" (1909) forerunner of the Haganah] were set up to protect the Jewish communities in Palestine against growing Arab aggression. The character of (what we called today) the Arab Palestinian was set many decades before. This stylized profile of the everlasting and eternal victim is just the latest in a string of attempts to gain sympathy.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Rocco hates arabs, that much is plain to see.

Better than being an Arab lover, I'm sure...

Then again, most folks who take-up the Israeli side in this long-standing 'contest' don't hate Arabs...

They just don't like 'em very much, or just don't think very highly of them...

Big difference...

And quite an understandable perception, when compared side-by-side against the vitality and culture and courage and industry of the Jews of Israel...

Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?

Kondor isn't Jewish, and the opinions he's expressing about the situation on the ground are his own. The sad reality is that Jews have to travel in bullet-proof busses to visit Abraham's or Rachel's Tombs. Rachel's Tomb, once a beautiful little dome, now has an ugly fortress built over it. Joseph's Tomb had been destroyed. 500,000 Jews live among almost 3 million hostile Arabs in the West Bank, Israel's ancestral heartland.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Better than being an Arab lover, I'm sure...

Then again, most folks who take-up the Israeli side in this long-standing 'contest' don't hate Arabs...

They just don't like 'em very much, or just don't think very highly of them...

Big difference...

And quite an understandable perception, when compared side-by-side against the vitality and culture and courage and industry of the Jews of Israel...

Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?

Kondor isn't Jewish, and the opinions he's expressing about the situation on the ground are his own. The sad reality is that Jews have to travel in bullet-proof busses to visit Abraham's or Rachel's Tombs. Rachel's Tomb, once a beautiful little dome, now has an ugly fortress built over it. Joseph's Tomb had been destroyed. 500,000 Jews live among almost 3 million hostile Arabs in the West Bank, Israel's ancestral heartland.

You don't need to be Jewish to think that they are the best. Personally, I wouldn't live on stolen land surrounded by people who want to wipe you off the face of the earth. And you'd think that the Jews had had enough off that shit with Hitler. Guess not...

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another unique perspective held by Palestinians.

P F Tinmore, et al,

The disenfranchised nearly always jump to say: "We had every right to be angry."


(COMMENT)

It is important to remember that, no matter what agreements are made (if any) from the talks underway at this moment, the Arab-Palestinian is going to walk away with (essentially) less than they were offered in GA Resolution 181(II); had they accepted those initial conditions. So, no matter how badly they thought they were treated them (an unfounded perception), the consequence of their actions is still not fully comprehended.

What was the cost of the conflict? Whether we talk about the territory before Israeli independence, or after Israeli independence, the ultimate goal of the Arab Palestinian was to take totally control of all the territory under the former Mandate (less the Hashemite Kingdom). It is a goal that some Arab Palestinians still hold today; a concept is still held over in the basic principles noted in both the HAMAS Covenant and the PNA Charter. And that failed bid to achieve that, either by the insurgency before Israeli independence, or by war after Israeli independence, is the consequence they have to live with today. Yes, they probably have a right to be angry, but who should they by angry with (how about themselves)? (Yes, the criminal is always angry at the police that arrests them. Is that a justification for more crime?)

Your response: "Angry? And rightly so. They are correct" -- merely shows that my description is correct. It is not a justification for their actions --- right or wrong.



Most Respectfully,
R

You seem to miss the fact that the Palestinians were at home minding their own business when the criminals came down from Europe and kicked therm off their land.

The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression.

(COMMENT)

The venerated Izz al-Qassam, the Syrian namesake for today's rocket and the armed Palestinian Brigade, was very active anti-Zionist and anti-Mandate movement in the 1930's; and he was the first. Sheikh al-Qassam not only preached Jihad, but participated in attacks on Jewish Settlers. Together with Hajj Amin al-Husseini, Prince Rashed Al Khuzai, Sheikh Methkal Al-Fayez, and Sheikh Hadeetha Al-Kraisha --- Sheikh al-Qassam all were involved in the emergence of the Palestinian Liberation movements, even well before the rise of the counter force --- The Irgun; which splintered off from the "The Watchman" of the Haganah.

(Palestinians were at home minding their own business)

It is disingenuous to suggest that the peaceful Arabs of the territory were just quietly sitting at home, not bothering anyone, and were suddenly and most violently set upon by the wicked Jews. No, that is not quite how it was. Even before the Balfour Declaration (1917), the Bar-Giora (1907) [Jewish defense force of the Second Aliyah, and forerunner of the Hashomer] and the Hashomer ["The Watchman" (1909) forerunner of the Haganah] were set up to protect the Jewish communities in Palestine against growing Arab aggression. The character of (what we called today) the Arab Palestinian was set many decades before. This stylized profile of the everlasting and eternal victim is just the latest in a string of attempts to gain sympathy.

Most Respectfully,
R

Indeed, the Balfour declaration and the mandate ushered the third Aliyah. The Zionist invasion was decades old by then.

Why do you blame the Palestinians for that?

 

[MHunterB]

Actually there can be up to 7 Aliyot - but that's part of the Torah service in shul.

As far as returning to the Land to rebuild our home - that's been going on throughout the centuries. Starting with the 'going up' out of Egypt. Since Torah Judaism didn't exist (well, was not revealed to us) until Sinai, one could say that the entire history of the Jewish People has been one sustained Aliyah.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?"

If, by that, you mean judging...

...a large bloc of disorganized, rootless, shiftless people who lived in tents and mud-huts and played the semi-nomadic herders and who drifted from one Ottoman province to another and who really didn't do shit with the land for centuries, versus...

...comparing and judging another large bloc of people who had a direction and goals and unity of purpose and history and who took some of the worst real estate in the region and transformed it into productive and richly yielding agricultural and industrial real estate...

...well, uhhhh, yeah, that's probably spot-on.

Nobody is labeling either Jews or Arabs as superior to one another, genetically or with respect to capacity or capabilities, or as human beings, in the broadest metaphorical and philosophical sense.

But it's entirely legitimate to label one or the other as far more vibrant and energetic and industrious and purposeful and historically-aware of themselves and militarily competent and culturally superior and more valuable and important to the world stage and the world economy and world politics and international relationships than then other.

You're just sore 'cause your boys come out on the short end of the stick in any such analysis...

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is still another unique perspective.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another unique perspective held by Palestinians.

You seem to miss the fact that the Palestinians were at home minding their own business when the criminals came down from Europe and kicked therm off their land.

The Palestinians have still not surrendered to that continuing aggression.

(COMMENT)

The venerated Izz al-Qassam, the Syrian namesake for today's rocket and the armed Palestinian Brigade, was very active anti-Zionist and anti-Mandate movement in the 1930's; and he was the first. Sheikh al-Qassam not only preached Jihad, but participated in attacks on Jewish Settlers. Together with Hajj Amin al-Husseini, Prince Rashed Al Khuzai, Sheikh Methkal Al-Fayez, and Sheikh Hadeetha Al-Kraisha --- Sheikh al-Qassam all were involved in the emergence of the Palestinian Liberation movements, even well before the rise of the counter force --- The Irgun; which splintered off from the "The Watchman" of the Haganah.

(Palestinians were at home minding their own business)

It is disingenuous to suggest that the peaceful Arabs of the territory were just quietly sitting at home, not bothering anyone, and were suddenly and most violently set upon by the wicked Jews. No, that is not quite how it was. Even before the Balfour Declaration (1917), the Bar-Giora (1907) [Jewish defense force of the Second Aliyah, and forerunner of the Hashomer] and the Hashomer ["The Watchman" (1909) forerunner of the Haganah] were set up to protect the Jewish communities in Palestine against growing Arab aggression. The character of (what we called today) the Arab Palestinian was set many decades before. This stylized profile of the everlasting and eternal victim is just the latest in a string of attempts to gain sympathy.

Most Respectfully,
R

Indeed, the Balfour declaration and the mandate ushered the third Aliyah. The Zionist invasion was decades old by then.

Why do you blame the Palestinians for that?

(COMMENT)

The idea that Jewish immigration was an invasion.

That is also disingenuous. There was no invasion. That is just inflammatory language to gain additional sympathy as a perpetual victim.

Several Sultans of the Ottoman Empire not only invited the Jewish People to immigrate back into the empire, but went so far as to retrieve them. Under Sultan Bayezid II, the Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis was sent to Europe and take Jewish refugees under his protection and bring them back to the Empire. Sultan Suleiman "The Magnificent" also went along way to incorporating the Jewish communities into the Empire.

Suleiman, possessed of a remarkable religious tolerance for his time, also stressed the inclusion of the holy sites of all Jerusalem's faiths within his city plan. When he learned that his architects had left Mount Zion, holy to the city's Jews and Christians, outside the confines of the new wall, he had them executed (the sultan was somewhat less tolerant of failure).

SOURCE: http://www.gojerusalem.com/article_1457/Suleiman-the-Magnificient-Builder-of-Ottoman-Jerusalem

Under Sultan Mahmut I, the Jewish were given Ottoman Citizenship and all the right thereto. And as I mentioned before, the Sultan Abdul Aziz created the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" and allocated 2600 dunams of land for the establishment of the University and granted permission for importing tools and machinery absent duty free.

During the Ottoman Empire, there was no "invasion." And certainly, that brings us up to the end of WWI and the Treaty of Sevres (1920). Post-War immigration was merely a continuation of the policy established by the Sovereign for the past 800 years.

What we call today, the Palestinians, never had sovereignty over the territory once under Mandate. The Palestinian never experienced an "invasion;" at least not from the Jewish Community. There was a war, and the post-War repercussions.

Now do I expect any of this to make an impression on you? NO! Why do I say that? Because I expect you to follow the Covenant:

Article Twenty-Five:

Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues.

SOURCE: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Decades old!

The Zionist invasion was decades old by then.

No matter when you start the timeline, you can go back to the time of Saladin, first Sultan of Egypt and Syria; leader of the Islamic Forces against the Crusaders in the Levant and captured Jerusalem in the name of Islam; and you will not find a record of a Jewish Invasion.

What you will find is immigration at the invitation of the Sovereign over the territory, and later, the Protectorate over the territory (UK as Mandatory).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?"

If, by that, you mean judging...

...a large bloc of disorganized, rootless, shiftless people who lived in tents and mud-huts and played the semi-nomadic herders and who drifted from one Ottoman province to another and who really didn't do shit with the land for centuries, versus...

...comparing and judging another large bloc of people who had a direction and goals and unity of purpose and history and who took some of the worst real estate in the region and transformed it into productive and richly yielding agricultural and industrial real estate...

...well, uhhhh, yeah, that's probably spot-on.

Nobody is labeling either Jews or Arabs as superior to one another, genetically or with respect to capacity or capabilities, or as human beings, in the broadest metaphorical and philosophical sense.

But it's entirely legitimate to label one or the other as far more vibrant and energetic and industrious and purposeful and historically-aware of themselves and militarily competent and culturally superior and more valuable and important to the world stage and the world economy and world politics and international relationships than then other.

You're just sore 'cause your boys come out on the short end of the stick in any such analysis...

Indeed, some worship mammon and some do not.

 

[Bumberclyde]

"...Ah! A Jewish supremacist! But then again, aren't you all?"

If, by that, you mean judging...

...a large bloc of disorganized, rootless, shiftless people who lived in tents and mud-huts and played the semi-nomadic herders and who drifted from one Ottoman province to another and who really didn't do shit with the land for centuries, versus...

...comparing and judging another large bloc of people who had a direction and goals and unity of purpose and history and who took some of the worst real estate in the region and transformed it into productive and richly yielding agricultural and industrial real estate...

...well, uhhhh, yeah, that's probably spot-on.

Nobody is labeling either Jews or Arabs as superior to one another, genetically or with respect to capacity or capabilities, or as human beings, in the broadest metaphorical and philosophical sense.

But it's entirely legitimate to label one or the other as far more vibrant and energetic and industrious and purposeful and historically-aware of themselves and militarily competent and culturally superior and more valuable and important to the world stage and the world economy and world politics and international relationships than then other.

You're just sore 'cause your boys come out on the short end of the stick in any such analysis...

Not my "boys", I'm for peace with a negotiated settlement, or Israel getting nuked, whichever comes first.

PS Your side gave us 9/11, is that what you mean by more " important to the world stage"? As for them being more valuable period, it shows your true colors.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What we call today, the Palestinians, never had sovereignty over the territory once under Mandate. Blah, blah, blah.

Typical BS excuse to kick people out of their homeland.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Kondor isn't Jewish..."

Correct. An Irish-German American mutt, and a long-lapsed and non-practicing Roman Catholic.

"...and the opinions he's expressing about the situation on the ground are his own..."

Correct again. I am not a stakeholder. That makes it easier to discuss such things, and even to take sides, without the religious and emotional baggage. And, of course, from time to time, to say something that would make an Israeli government public-relations officer cringe; even if what is being said is commonly held to be true by both friends and enemies.

"...The sad reality is that Jews have to travel in bullet-proof busses to visit Abraham's or Rachel's Tombs..."

That will change when Israel completes the process of annexing that land.

"...Rachel's Tomb, once a beautiful little dome, now has an ugly fortress built over it. Joseph's Tomb had been destroyed..."

No surprise there. Both historically and in our own modern age, Muslims EXCEL at acting like swine and either taking-over and re-tasking, or destroying, or building on top of, the historical and cultural and religious shrines and monuments and statuary of others who do not think like they do, rather than doing the upstanding and righteous thing and holding such sites IN TRUST for all of mankind. There is an overwhelming body of evidence to support such sad and incontrovertible conclusions.

"...500,000 Jews live among almost 3 million hostile Arabs in the West Bank, Israel's ancestral heartland."

Again... that will change, and that, soon enough, as the annexation and expelling process reaches its finale.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Indeed, some worship mammon and some do not."

Like your Saudi oil barons?

Yeah, right, Tinny.

To paraphrase one of your own, just a few minutes ago...

Typical BS excuse for Under-Performers...

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Remember the basics.

What we call today, the Palestinians, never had sovereignty over the territory once under Mandate. Blah, blah, blah.

Typical BS excuse to kick people out of their homeland.

(COMMENT)

Who started the conflict between the Jewish and the Arab Palestinian?

Don't take a swing at someone and then cry because they beat the snot out of you. If I ever did that, my father would give me a second licking.

Most Respectfully,
R