"If the Moscow empire collapses, then the Muscovites " as an ethnic group "may not survive" - Putin

[Litwin]

"If the Moscow empire collapses, then the Muscovites " as an ethnic group "may not survive" - Putin

pootler is wrong as usual , Muscovy ´d do just fine without the colonies , do you agree ?

Muscovy ´d do just fine without the colonies , do you agree ?
Yes, I do agree !
no. putin is right

 

[Litwin]

Baron how is right me or pootler ?

 

[Litwin]

 

[Baron]

Baron how is right me or pootler ?

Litwin,

care better about more important things, waste not so much time for a piece of shit like the Collective Putin and its numerous doubles

 

[occupied]

Hyperbole of course. We hear the same song and dance here all the time as conservative politicians predict utter ruin unless they are allowed to rule without opposition.

 

[Litwin]

Litwin,

care better about more important things, waste not so much time for a piece of shit like the Collective Putin and its numerous doubles

Muscovy ´d do just fine without the colonies , do you agree ?

 

[Litwin]

Hyperbole of course. We hear the same song and dance here all the time as conservative politicians predict utter ruin unless they are allowed to rule without opposition.

 

[Doug1943]

The Russians should grant independence to their Muslim Republics. And then stay out of the ensuing wars.

The Europeans should do everything they can to draw the Russian people within the orbit of European civilization.

The Russians are a great people, part of Europe. Geography (and accidents of history) have kept them from participating fully in the European civilizational advance, just as, to a lesser extent, they hindered the Eastern European nations.

What "accidents of history"?

If you don't know what the Battle of Poltava was, catch up here:
[ Battle of Poltava - Wikipedia ]

Then you can appreciate this Russian joke, set at the time of the Gorbachev 'thaw'.

Three Muscovites are sitting round the kitchen table of one them, drinking, and, in the new atmosphere of relative freedom, discussing where everything had gone wrong.

The first says, "Well, it's obvious. It started to go wrong with Stalin ... that paranoid Georgian. Until he took over, things were hard on the counter-revolutionaries, but good Party members were safe. If only Lenin hadn't died ...."

They all threw back a glass of vodka, and brooded for a while. Then the second one said,
"No comrade ... you are wrong. The problems began with Lenin." (A shocked silence, then he continued.) "Yes ... he overthrow the Provisional Government ... which meant outlawing all the non-Soviet parties ... and then the other Soviet parties ... Stalin just continued the process. I'm afraid we have to blame Comrade Lenin."

Everyone throws back another glass of vodka, and broods in silence for a while longer.

Finally, the third one says, "No ... you're both wrong. Our problems began way before that, long before that." "When?" say the other two.

"With Peter the Great. He's the real culprit here."
"Peter the Great?" exclaims one of the others, "How do you figure that? He was a modernizer."

"Because," the third man said, "if that bastard had just lost the Battle of Poltava .... we'd all be living in Sweden!!!"

 

[Litwin]

The Russians should grant independence to their Muslim Republics.

interesting post , all of them Including Tatarstan ? whats about 4 Japanese islands , South Karelia ?
ps

 

[Doug1943]

interesting post , all of them Including Tatarstan ? whats about 4 Japanese islands , South Karelia ?
ps

Well, if I were the Russian leader, I'd probably let Japan have those islands. The goodwill bought thereby would be worth more than their strategic value -- or so I would guess. I think Putin did something like this with China a decade or so ago -- very wise.

As for 'Tatarstan' -- I assume you mean Tatar Crimea. In the context of a some agreement that gave Russia secure access to its naval base at Sebastopol, I would propose self-determination. Let the Tatars have their own state. But maybe the geography/demographics don't work.

My main points are (1) serious ethnic diversity leads to problems. Why give yourself that headache? I know the Muslims make for cheap labor on Moscow building sites, but Russia could have some sort of equivalent of the 'bracero' program for them. (2) Getting the goodwill of the world is actually worth a lot. The Chinese would make huge gains if they came to a generous agreement with India over those barren mountain peaks they periodically kill each other over ... same with Vietnam and those islands ... same with Japan and that island whose name I forget ... let China propose to turn it into a UN-supervised whale sanctuary or something.

Nobody would see this as weakness or cowardice on China's part.

Modern warfare is also a war for 'hearts and minds' ... and it's worth while not being seen as an international bully or expansionist.

And while we're on this subject: why doesn't China tell the Taiwanese, "we want you to rejoin the family, but we won't force you. In the meantime, let's get rich together while the roundeyes watch us in envy". In another generation or two, assuming China doesn't suffer a horrible demographic collapse, the Taiwanese will be begging to join ... especially if the post-Xi Chinese government lightens up and becomes more like Singapore, with at least the trappings of democracy, an opposition party, etc.

War used to make sense. If you won, you got something: a piece of someone else's country (Canada!), or you accomplished some political goals, like Bismarck did. But today ... they're stupid.

Our species needs to start working on getting a colony on the moon, finding out how to prevent cancer, raising babies in bottles, exploring the bottom of the oceans, getting close-to-room-temperature superconductivity, making a working more-out-than-in fusion reactor ... how stupid to fight over territory now.

 

[Litwin]

'Tatarstan' -- I assume you mean Tatar Crimea.

No, the larger Moscow´s colony

ps

 

[Doug1943]

No, the larger Moscow´s colony

ps

I don't know enough about the ethnic distribution in the Russian Federation to comment. If the Tatars are a large group (in numbers), concentrated into a single area, and if they don't seem to be assimilating into the Russian nation, then they should be offered independence.

 

[Litwin]

I don't know enough about the ethnic distribution in the Russian Federation to comment. If the Tatars are a large group (in numbers), concentrated into a single area, and if they don't seem to be assimilating into the Russian nation, then they should be offered independence.

Muscovy must return back to its 15c borders ! time of empires has gone !

 

[luiza]

You can see TitLoser is wetting his pants .

Post after post , all senseless crap invariably using the same maps -- one of which you have used over100 times this year .

What a beginner -- complete amateur

 

[Litwin]

You can see TitLoser is wetting his pants .

Post after post , all senseless crap invariably using the same maps -- one of which you have used over100 times this year .

What a beginner -- complete amateur

 

[Doug1943]

Muscovy must return back to its 15c borders ! time of empires has gone !

You're right. Empires who had overseas colonies, with just a thin layer of administrators from the home country, had a pretty easy time disposing of their colonies. They could just leave.

The real problem comes where there was substantial settlement into the colony, as with the French in Algeria. Or where the colony consists of interpenetrated peoples, as with the British Raj, where Churchill correctly predicted that British withdrawal would mean mass murders. Or in Uganda, where Indians had come in under the British, and had become the mercantile class. (So the Africans slaughtered them and destroyed their businesses.)

The Russians' problem is that their empire was contiguous with their homeland, not overseas. So there are plenty of ethnic Russians living outside their ethnic homeland. In the civilized countries that broke loose -- the Baltics -- this is not much of a problem, at least for the moment. The Russians are a distinct minority, but the cold-blooded Baltics know better than to start persecuting them.

In places like Kazakhstan, I wouldn't be so sure. Same for the potentially-independent Muslim areas. Russians should get out.

And Ukraine is a special situation with its own complexities, where questions of Russian military security override formal democratic self-determination. (When California becomes majority-Hispanic, would the national government let it go, if the majority of people there wanted to break away from the mother country and, say, make a close alliance with China? )

 

[Litwin]

The Russians' problem is that their empire was contiguous with their homeland, not overseas.

between Moscow and Vladivostok (dont remember China's´s name of this non- Muscovite city) A single-track railway, which means that European empires were far better connected, still they have gone . dont forget that Muscovites in 1917 were in minority , much like they are in minority today , Ural , Siberians are not Muscovites


I´d recommend you this video : Preparing for the Dissolution of the Moscow empire, Hudson Institute





sources :
The Rise of Siberian Nationalism



ps

 

[Litwin]

You're right. Empires who had overseas colonies, with just a thin layer of administrators from the home country, had a pretty easy time disposing of their colonies. They could just leave.

The real problem comes where there was substantial settlement into the colony, as with the French in Algeria. Or where the colony consists of interpenetrated peoples, as with the British Raj, where Churchill correctly predicted that British withdrawal would mean mass murders. Or in Uganda, where Indians had come in under the British, and had become the mercantile class. (So the Africans slaughtered them and destroyed their businesses.)

The Russians' problem is that their empire was contiguous with their homeland, not overseas. So there are plenty of ethnic Russians living outside their ethnic homeland. In the civilized countries that broke loose -- the Baltics -- this is not much of a problem, at least for the moment. The Russians are a distinct minority, but the cold-blooded Baltics know better than to start persecuting them.

In places like Kazakhstan, I wouldn't be so sure. Same for the potentially-independent Muslim areas. Russians should get out.

And Ukraine is a special situation with its own complexities, where questions of Russian military security override formal democratic self-determination. (When California becomes majority-Hispanic, would the national government let it go, if the majority of people there wanted to break away from the mother country and, say, make a close alliance with China? )

ps Moscow KGB -church must be kicked back to asia from Europe , USA , and the rest of the world

 

[luiza]

THE ACTUAL TRUTH . IT'S A MASSACRE Today , March 6
Front line comments made by fighters today , reported by Kyiv Independent
The soldiers lack about everything that would support their defense:They say that Russian artillery, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers are often allowed to strike Ukrainian positions for hours or days without being shut down by Ukrainian heavy weapons. Some complained of poor coordination and situational awareness, allowing this to happen or making it even worse.Mortarmen spoke of extreme ammunition scarcity and having to use weapons dating back to World War II. Drones that are supposed to provide critical reconnaissance information are also scarce and are being lost at very high rates in some parts of the battlefield.All this leads to terrifying casualties of both dead and wounded. "The battalion came in in the middle of December… between all the different platoons, there were 500 of us," says Borys, a combat medic from Odesa Oblast fighting around Bakhmut. "A month ago, there were literally 150 of us."“When you go out to the position, it’s not even a 50/50 chance that you’ll come out of there (alive),” says the older Serhiy. “It’s more like 30/70.”

 

[Doug1943]

between Moscow and Vladivostok (dont remember China's´s name of this non- Muscovite city) A single-track railway, which means that European empires were far better connected, still they have gone . dont forget that Muscovites in 1917 were in minority , much like they are in minority today , Ural , Siberians are not Muscovites


I´d recommend you this video : Preparing for the Dissolution of the Moscow empire, Hudson Institute





sources :
The Rise of Siberian Nationalism



ps

The ethnic Russians would be far better off, considering what's coming in the future, if their nationality corresponded pretty closely with their borders. Let the non-Russians go. By being slaves to the irrational 'sacredness of boundaries', they're storing up trouble for themselves later.

Let them follow Lenin, and his admirable support for 'the right of nations to self-determination'.

But here are our differences: I admire the Russian people. I lived for a while in Soviet Ukraine, and have several good Russian and Ukainian, and Russian-Ukrainian friends and acquaintances. They're lovely people -- give you the shirt off their back.

And I agree with Richard Nixon that 'the Russians are a great nation'. Anyone who knows anything about mathematics, physics, music, or literature will agree with me.

But you seem to have a hatred for Russians as such. We can learn a lot from Marx and Engels, whose ideals were not wrong. It was their deductions from their theory that were wrong, i.e. that socialism would prove even more productive than capitalism.

For instance, they believed that 'the workers have no country'. But they could not escape their German nationalism, and there are some nasty racist quotes made by them about Blacks, Jews, Slavs, etc, some of them in the justifiable context of wanting to see all mankind advance out barbarism into modernity, others just out of exasperation at the foolish romantic choice of a certain daughter.

(It's really funny to see the folks at Marxists.org, which is a kind of online archive of writings by Marx/Engels and other Marxists, say the sensible thing about these embarrassing quotes -- ie "they were men of their time" -- when Leftists refuse to apply this commonsense judgement to the Founding Fathers.)

Really, you ought to meet some of my Russian friends. It might change your mind about Russians as whole, who are not different from the rest of us: easily swayed by patriotic fervor. Group-think is generally bad for any nationality.