If socialists actually understood socialism

[Robert W]

First my introduction to this topic. Mises means the Austria form of economics. Fredrich Hayek was a famous figure that explained it clearly. Socialists, once you get it, you will run from socialism.

If Socialists Actually Understood Socialism | Mises Institute

Hayek once remarked, “If socialists understood economics, they wouldn’t be socialists.” Building on this, if socialists understood socialism, they wouldn’t be

mises.org

09/22/2025•Mises Wire•Emric Egbert
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In light of recent developments in New York City, specifically on the recent primary elections and the emergence of self-described democratic socialist Zohran Mamdani as a potential mayoral candidate, as well as the increasingly aggressive public engagement of Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in their tour around the United States, and the fact that AOC’s chances of becoming the 2028 Democratic presidential nominee have doubled within one week, it has become clear to me that socialist rhetoric is gaining momentum in American political discourse.

This trend is further reflected in survey data from the Pew Research Center, which shows that approximately 36 percent of U.S. adults aged 18 to 29 now view socialism positively. In response to these developments, it is imperative to contribute to the proper education and clarification of what these socialists are actually advocating for, or even what true socialism truly advocates for.

Friedrich von Hayek, Nobel laureate and one of the most influential economists and political philosophers of the 20th century, once remarked, “If socialists understood economics, they wouldn’t be socialists.” Building on his erudition, I would add: If socialists understood socialism, they wouldn’t be socialists.

The true definition of socialism is a social and economic doctrine that advocates for public, rather than private, ownership or control of property and natural resources—the means of production. It is both a political and economic system in which the means of production are owned and controlled collectively by the community or the state, rather than by private individuals. In other words, in practice, the means of production are controlled by a minority political elite.

 

[Donald H]

No system of governing when taken to the extreme, can work well. This resulted in Trump's opportunity to take down America's corrupt one-party system. It can happen to a socialist system just as easily.

If this is serious, we should talk about it.

Just a warning though If this becomes a target for the extremist spammers, ya'all can do it without my input.

 

[whitehall]

The same goes for "fascism". Ignorant Gen Xers and other alphabet factions who were educated by the socialist dominated federal education system grew up with a latent hatred for their own Country and the Constitution and it persists today. Socialism failed in every experiment in the 20th century in the world but the modern left claims it could do better. We saw evidence of fascism during the Biden/Fauci regime but pop socialists seem to think that there is "good" fascism if the media goes along with it.

 

[Robert W]

No system of governing when taken to the extreme, can work well. This resulted in Trump's opportunity to take down America's corrupt one-party system. It can happen to a socialist system just as easily.

If this is serious, we should talk about it.

Just a warning though If this becomes a target for the extremist spammers, ya'all can do it without my input.

The USA when founded governed slightly so that the citizens believed they were in charge. Democrats brought us socialism where the state is in full charge. I left them in time to vote for President Reagan.

 

[Robert W]

The same goes for "fascism". Ignorant Gen Xers and other alphabet factions who were educated by the socialist dominated federal education system grew up with a latent hatred for their own Country and the Constitution and it persists today. Socialism failed in every experiment in the 20th century in the world but the modern left claims it could do better. We saw evidence of fascism during the Biden/Fauci regime but pop socialists seem to think that there is "good" fascism if the media goes along with it.

For a government to actually be the real Fascist state there must be a King over all.

Most posters are not aware that during the early 1920s through the end of WW2, Italy that was Fascist had a king. HE fired Mussolini in fact.

 

[task0778]

I think it boils down to people that want a lot of free stuff: education, healthcare, housing, etc., but they want somebody else to pay for it. They want a redistribution of wealth from the rich guys, like Robin Hood. Those people look to Scandanavian countries like Sweden as an example of the society they want, but those countries have a very broad income tax base (everybody pays) and high consumption taxes. Which leads to a problem: in America, people believe they should keep as much of what they have earned as possible, while the socialists believe the gov't should take as much of their money as needed to fund all the free stuff to everybody. Which isn't politically accceptable, at least for now. I'm not sure that all those people that want socialism actually know what they're advocating for.

 

[Donald H]

The USA when founded governed slightly so that the citizens believed they were in charge.

That's an interesting concept. Are you suggesting that the gov only wanted the people to believe?

Democrats brought us socialism where the state is in full charge. I left them in time to vote for President Reagan.

Socialism was never brought. Some social (ist) policies were adopted right from the beginning and are still accepted, even within a capitalist system or a capitalist system under a fascist dictator.

Can you expand on your claims of socialism enhanced by the Demos?

What are you imagining they brought that wasn't accepted?

 

[Donald H]

The same goes for "fascism". Ignorant Gen Xers and other alphabet factions who were educated by the socialist dominated federal education system grew up with a latent hatred for their own Country and the Constitution and it persists today. Socialism failed in every experiment in the 20th century in the world but the modern left claims it could do better. We saw evidence of fascism during the Biden/Fauci regime but pop socialists seem to think that there is "good" fascism if the media goes along with it.

Nobody should disagree on the US public education's failure.

But other countries' education systems have succeeded and they're practically all more socialist oriented than America.

Can we conclude anything from that?

Especially now that Trump is being supported in throwing out the corruption?

It has been an experiment in extremist capitalism under the previous Biden regime and those that came before Biden.

 

[Robert W]

That's an interesting concept. Are you suggesting that the gov only wanted the people to believe?


Socialism was never brought. Some social (ist) policies were adopted right from the beginning and are still accepted, even within a capitalist system or a capitalist system under a fascist dictator.

Can you expand on your claims of socialism enhanced by the Demos?

What are you imagining they brought that wasn't accepted?

Though this country stayed true to the founding until President Wilson took charge, he only touch the surface of introducing socialism. FDR managed to hit the homerun. It was war and he pushed socialism into the USA due to war and also depression. He converted the citizen from being in charge of government as Democrats like to say, to Government taking charge of our lives causing misery. Such as the national debt. Even in charge of health. Means of production was under the control of FDR. To get goods, my parents were issued ration cards and all they could get thanks to FDR was the limits placed on them using the cards at the time.

Rationing in the United States​

Rationing is the controlled distribution of scarce resources, goods, or services, or an artificial restriction of demand. Rationing controls the size of the ration, which is one person's allotted portion of the resources being distributed on a particular day or at a particular time. Rationing in the United States was introduced in stages during World War II, with the last of the restrictions ending in June 1947. In the wake of the 1973 Oil Crisis, gas stations across the country enacted different rationing policies and standby rationing plans were introduced. Wikipedia

 

[Donald H]

Though this country stayed true to the founding until President Wilson took charge, he only touch the surface of introducing socialism. FDR managed to hit the homerun. It was war and he pushed socialism into the USA due to war and also depression. He converted the citizen from being in charge of government as Democrats like to say, to Government taking charge of our lives causing misery. Such as the national debt. Even in charge of health. Means of production was under the control of FDR. To get goods, my parents were issued ration cards and all they could get thanks to FDR was the limits placed on them using the cards at the time.

Rationing in the United States​

Rationing is the controlled distribution of scarce resources, goods, or services, or an artificial restriction of demand. Rationing controls the size of the ration, which is one person's allotted portion of the resources being distributed on a particular day or at a particular time. Rationing in the United States was introduced in stages during World War II, with the last of the restrictions ending in June 1947. In the wake of the 1973 Oil Crisis, gas stations across the country enacted different rationing policies and standby rationing plans were introduced. Wikipedia

View attachment 1165747

Why did your parents have to use ration cards? Here's a couple of answers:

1. Limited resources needed to be rationed.

2. to prevent starvation and even worse.

3. Do have any other ideas?

 

[Robert W]

Nobody should disagree on the US public education's failure.

But other countries' education systems have succeeded and they're practically all more socialist oriented than America.

Can we conclude anything from that?

Especially now that Trump is being supported in throwing out the corruption?

It has been an experiment in extremist capitalism under the previous Biden regime and those that came before Biden.

If one takes the economy of Alaska as an example, citizins there actually get paid for being citizens of thatg state. It is a net positive to live in Alaska.

Why did your parents have to use ration cards? Here's a couple of answers:

1. Limited resources needed to be rationed.

2. to prevent starvation and even worse.

3. Do have any other ideas?

You appear to be persuaded that FDR dragged us into socialism.

 

[Donald H]

If one takes the economy of Alaska as an example, citizins there actually get paid for being citizens of thatg state. It is a net positive to live in Alaska.

It's a wealthy state. It's the reason why countries are formed out of several state. But you already know that.

You appear to be persuaded that FDR dragged us into socialism.

I have no idea either way.

Why were there ration cards?

Ration cards are an indication that a country is socially responsible to its people..

 

[Robert W]

It's a wealthy state. It's the reason why countries are formed out of several state. But you already know that.

I have no idea either way.

Why were there ration cards?

Ration cards are an indication that a country is socially responsible to its people..

Statism again. My major points are the entire economy was not managed by the public, but by FDR.

While demand had been building in the years prior, when the US joined the war, demand for materials and supplies skyrocketed. Among these were the metals needed for tin cans. The military needed to be able to can foods for military rations – both for the US and for the other Allies. Also needed by the military in huge quantities were the ingredients that went into the rations. Meat, chocolate, coffee, Girl Scout cookies, and other foods either disappeared or were highly restricted from the consumer market.[1]

Coffee, cooking oils, and sugar was limited not just by their use to feed the military, but also because of the war itself. All shipments were limited by the transition of civilian cargo vessels to military transport use. In addition, shipments of coffee from Central and South America were disrupted by enemy submarine attacks.[2] As Japan captured places across the Pacific, they cut the US off from our main source of cooking oils.[3] In December 1941, Japan cut the US off entirely from its main sugar supply when they captured the Philippines. Sugar crops from elsewhere in the US (Hawai’i, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands) couldn’t make up the difference. Crops in these areas were lower due to poor weather, lack of fertilizer, and a shortage of agricultural labor.[4]

Across the US, agricultural workers were drafted into the military or moved from the farms to industrial centers to work. At the same time, the need for food was booming: America was both the arsenal and the bread basket of democracy.[5] The resulting shortage of labor risked the American food supply – for the military and for civilians. In response, the government formed the Crop Corps, the Women’s Land Army, and established the Bracero Program.[6] They also leased out prisoners of war as farm labor, gave work passes to incarcerated Japanese Americans, and encouraged civilians to plant Victory Gardens to provide their own produce. The result was that agricultural production in the US did not collapse during World War II, but there were still supply and demand issues for certain categories of foods.

Rationing was overseen by the federal Office of Price Administration (OPA), assisted by information from other wartime agencies. Using their nation-wide overview of supply, demand, and the economy, the OPA dictated which items to ration, set ceiling prices, and allocated available supply. These limits both ensured a fair distribution of goods, and helped to keep inflation in check. Rationing was managed at the local level by volunteer rationing boards. By the end of the war, over 100,000 citizen volunteers were managing the program organized into about 5,600 local boards.[7]

 

[Donald H]

Statism again. My major points are the entire economy was not managed by the public, but by FDR.

While demand had been building in the years prior, when the US joined the war, demand for materials and supplies skyrocketed. Among these were the metals needed for tin cans. The military needed to be able to can foods for military rations – both for the US and for the other Allies. Also needed by the military in huge quantities were the ingredients that went into the rations. Meat, chocolate, coffee, Girl Scout cookies, and other foods either disappeared or were highly restricted from the consumer market.[1]

Coffee, cooking oils, and sugar was limited not just by their use to feed the military, but also because of the war itself. All shipments were limited by the transition of civilian cargo vessels to military transport use. In addition, shipments of coffee from Central and South America were disrupted by enemy submarine attacks.[2] As Japan captured places across the Pacific, they cut the US off from our main source of cooking oils.[3] In December 1941, Japan cut the US off entirely from its main sugar supply when they captured the Philippines. Sugar crops from elsewhere in the US (Hawai’i, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands) couldn’t make up the difference. Crops in these areas were lower due to poor weather, lack of fertilizer, and a shortage of agricultural labor.[4]

Across the US, agricultural workers were drafted into the military or moved from the farms to industrial centers to work. At the same time, the need for food was booming: America was both the arsenal and the bread basket of democracy.[5] The resulting shortage of labor risked the American food supply – for the military and for civilians. In response, the government formed the Crop Corps, the Women’s Land Army, and established the Bracero Program.[6] They also leased out prisoners of war as farm labor, gave work passes to incarcerated Japanese Americans, and encouraged civilians to plant Victory Gardens to provide their own produce. The result was that agricultural production in the US did not collapse during World War II, but there were still supply and demand issues for certain categories of foods.

Rationing was overseen by the federal Office of Price Administration (OPA), assisted by information from other wartime agencies. Using their nation-wide overview of supply, demand, and the economy, the OPA dictated which items to ration, set ceiling prices, and allocated available supply. These limits both ensured a fair distribution of goods, and helped to keep inflation in check. Rationing was managed at the local level by volunteer rationing boards. By the end of the war, over 100,000 citizen volunteers were managing the program organized into about 5,600 local boards.[7]

Major point taken.

Were ration cards not necessary? A lot of whet you say indicates that you know they were.

Don't consider ration cards as socialism. They only represented responsible socialist policy. Capitalism in America adopted that policy.

 

[Robert W]

Major point taken.

Were ration cards not necessary? A lot of whet you say indicates that you know they were.

Don't consider ration cards as socialism. They only represented responsible socialist policy. Capitalism in America adopted that policy.

As a kid at the time, I recall my parents lives controlled by FDR and he used ration cards at the time. I notice a lot of the time the friends of socialism argue in the way you argue.

 

[Donald H]

As a kid at the time, I recall my parents lives controlled by FDR and he used ration cards at the time. I notice a lot of the time the friends of socialism argue in the way you argue.

It's enough that you've made a call for help. You want a discussion with me.

We're finished.

 

[Robert W]

It's enough that you've made a call for help. You want a discussion with me.

We're finished.

I don't blame you one bit for quitting.