I have sympathy for a Toronto cop convicted of attempted murder (and the person did die)? Yes, I explain why.

[shockedcanadian]

So, this guy made International news as he was recorded shooting a kid who was alone on a streetcar with a knife. There was outrage at the time in Toronto and rightfully so. As it were, many years later, I share some sympathy for him based on his recent comments.

At the time as he was going through the court process he seemed smug and very sure of his decision. That was the impression I and others saw through the media lens. He defended his decision, fine.

It was also expressed through the media at the time that he was somewhere in the top 1% of cops who pulled his firearm and his superiors did NOT address it with him. This is a massive failure of leadership but it is more than that, it is their culture and they don't want to ever accept responsibility for his actions and the effort of correcting them. He was a member of this culture, if he wasn't before he would have been post-hire obviously and whether it was his nature or not, it would impact how he acts and responds, especially when superiors do not address it.

Per this article:

James Forcillo told the inquest into the death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim that whenever an officer uses force — which includes drawing a firearm — they have to fill out and submit a form, but they typically "never hear about it again."

"It would be good if they were reviewed with the officer sometimes," to highlight things that were done well, as well as any mistakes or areas of improvement, he said.

The inquest has previously heard Forcillo had five instances were he drew a firearm between April and December 2012, and one in 2013 about two weeks before Yatim's death. Forcillo said he was not given any feedback on any of those incidents.

Forcillo, who was a constable at the time, also said no one approached him to check on his well-being after any of those incidents.

So basically, the higher up were passively encouraging these actions. They probably condoned it, while this guy had to suffer alone without advice to correct his actions. As he stated: "Police officer mental health is not something that is ever really brought up because if you express that you're not doing well, they're going to take you off the road," he said. "You bottle it and you push it down and everything's fine."

So they and their culture, from the Chief of police on down share a responsibility for not helping this cop out. In the end they also betrayed the city and country by not working with the office.

Now, I always say that such decisions are made in the Human Resources Department. Was he the right person for the job? Perhaps. Though perhaps not in such a vicious, uncaring culture. The best cops are compassionate, but they won't be if the culture punishes them for being so.

I know fully three cops today who were the WORST people in our community when they were kids. Why were they hired? In my opinion precisely because of these actions as kids in which they "manufactured threats". If not, why weren't they ever rounded up and charged with a crime? In fact, I know for sure one of these cops was arrested in a stolen car. How could he become a cop?

Now it is all coming full circle. I encourage Mr. Forcillo to expose the bad apples in this culture and how it has impacted his life. It may save future officers, the agencies themselves and even some lives in the future.

Perhaps a few other courageous people will out other agencies as well...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sammy-yatim-inquest-forcillo-1.7092406

 

[sealybobo]

So, this guy made International news as he was recorded shooting a kid who was alone on a streetcar with a knife. There was outrage at the time in Toronto and rightfully so. As it were, many years later, I share some sympathy for him based on his recent comments.

At the time as he was going through the court process he seemed smug and very sure of his decision. That was the impression I and others saw through the media lens. He defended his decision, fine.

It was also expressed through the media at the time that he was somewhere in the top 1% of cops who pulled his firearm and his superiors did NOT address it with him. This is a massive failure of leadership but it is more than that, it is their culture and they don't want to ever accept responsibility for his actions and the effort of correcting them. He was a member of this culture, if he wasn't before he would have been post-hire obviously and whether it was his nature or not, it would impact how he acts and responds, especially when superiors do not address it.

Per this article:

James Forcillo told the inquest into the death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim that whenever an officer uses force — which includes drawing a firearm — they have to fill out and submit a form, but they typically "never hear about it again."

"It would be good if they were reviewed with the officer sometimes," to highlight things that were done well, as well as any mistakes or areas of improvement, he said.

The inquest has previously heard Forcillo had five instances were he drew a firearm between April and December 2012, and one in 2013 about two weeks before Yatim's death. Forcillo said he was not given any feedback on any of those incidents.

Forcillo, who was a constable at the time, also said no one approached him to check on his well-being after any of those incidents.

So basically, the higher up were passively encouraging these actions. They probably condoned it, while this guy had to suffer alone without advice to correct his actions. As he stated: "Police officer mental health is not something that is ever really brought up because if you express that you're not doing well, they're going to take you off the road," he said. "You bottle it and you push it down and everything's fine."

So they and their culture, from the Chief of police on down share a responsibility for not helping this cop out. In the end they also betrayed the city and country by not working with the office.

Now, I always say that such decisions are made in the Human Resources Department. Was he the right person for the job? Perhaps. Though perhaps not in such a vicious, uncaring culture. The best cops are compassionate, but they won't be if the culture punishes them for being so.

I know fully three cops today who were the WORST people in our community when they were kids. Why were they hired? In my opinion precisely because of these actions as kids in which they "manufactured threats". If not, why weren't they ever rounded up and charged with a crime? In fact, I know for sure one of these cops was arrested in a stolen car. How could he become a cop?

Now it is all coming full circle. I encourage Mr. Forcillo to expose the bad apples in this culture and how it has impacted his life. It may save future officers, the agencies themselves and even some lives in the future.

Perhaps a few other courageous people will out other agencies as well...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sammy-yatim-inquest-forcillo-1.7092406

I watch real crime shows where the murderer or rapist only gets 10 years. A part of me says I wouldn't convict a person if they tracked this person down in 11 or 15 years and killed them. But it would be murder. Justified? Absolutely. I'm not talking about someone who drunk drove and killed your love one. That I could possibly forgive. I mean someone who murdered my love one on purpose.

I wonder if I could do it. They'd be crying and saying sorry. I do have a big heart. But not for someone who murdered my relative. I think I could do it.

Or shoot him in both feet and both hands and the dick. 5 shot gun. But he lives. The only thing is dead men can't testify against you. I'd wear a mask.

 

[Rigby5]

So, this guy made International news as he was recorded shooting a kid who was alone on a streetcar with a knife. There was outrage at the time in Toronto and rightfully so. As it were, many years later, I share some sympathy for him based on his recent comments.

At the time as he was going through the court process he seemed smug and very sure of his decision. That was the impression I and others saw through the media lens. He defended his decision, fine.

It was also expressed through the media at the time that he was somewhere in the top 1% of cops who pulled his firearm and his superiors did NOT address it with him. This is a massive failure of leadership but it is more than that, it is their culture and they don't want to ever accept responsibility for his actions and the effort of correcting them. He was a member of this culture, if he wasn't before he would have been post-hire obviously and whether it was his nature or not, it would impact how he acts and responds, especially when superiors do not address it.

Per this article:

James Forcillo told the inquest into the death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim that whenever an officer uses force — which includes drawing a firearm — they have to fill out and submit a form, but they typically "never hear about it again."

"It would be good if they were reviewed with the officer sometimes," to highlight things that were done well, as well as any mistakes or areas of improvement, he said.

The inquest has previously heard Forcillo had five instances were he drew a firearm between April and December 2012, and one in 2013 about two weeks before Yatim's death. Forcillo said he was not given any feedback on any of those incidents.

Forcillo, who was a constable at the time, also said no one approached him to check on his well-being after any of those incidents.

So basically, the higher up were passively encouraging these actions. They probably condoned it, while this guy had to suffer alone without advice to correct his actions. As he stated: "Police officer mental health is not something that is ever really brought up because if you express that you're not doing well, they're going to take you off the road," he said. "You bottle it and you push it down and everything's fine."

So they and their culture, from the Chief of police on down share a responsibility for not helping this cop out. In the end they also betrayed the city and country by not working with the office.

Now, I always say that such decisions are made in the Human Resources Department. Was he the right person for the job? Perhaps. Though perhaps not in such a vicious, uncaring culture. The best cops are compassionate, but they won't be if the culture punishes them for being so.

I know fully three cops today who were the WORST people in our community when they were kids. Why were they hired? In my opinion precisely because of these actions as kids in which they "manufactured threats". If not, why weren't they ever rounded up and charged with a crime? In fact, I know for sure one of these cops was arrested in a stolen car. How could he become a cop?

Now it is all coming full circle. I encourage Mr. Forcillo to expose the bad apples in this culture and how it has impacted his life. It may save future officers, the agencies themselves and even some lives in the future.

Perhaps a few other courageous people will out other agencies as well...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sammy-yatim-inquest-forcillo-1.7092406

Obvious first degree murder.
No one can shoot someone who it not in the process of attacking them.
There was no attack or threat.
Holding a knife is not threatening.
So this is then 1st degree murder.
If this was an ordinary person, it might only be 2nd degree murder, since an ordinary person could be upset and emotional about the knife.
But a cop is supposed to be trained to not be so easily frightened.

 

[MayorQuimby]

Obvious first degree murder.
No one can shoot someone who it not in the process of attacking them.
There was no attack or threat.
Holding a knife is not threatening.
So this is then 1st degree murder.
If this was an ordinary person, it might only be 2nd degree murder, since an ordinary person could be upset and emotional about the knife.
But a cop is supposed to be trained to not be so easily frightened.

I think this one is iffy. Was the teen holding the knife "normally"? Or was he kind of like, brandishing it menacingly? Also, the fact someone carries a weapon in public is cause for alarm. He could start slashing people if he wanted to, and there are quite a few crazy people like that in our world. And certainly cops have dealt with a lot of crazy people and as a result they are always on high alert when they see someone handle a weapon in a public space.

Also, if the officer in question told the teen to put down the knife but he refused, then I could see why he would think the teen was a threat.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I think this one is iffy. Was the teen holding the knife "normally"? Or was he kind of like, brandishing it menacingly? Also, the fact someone carries a weapon in public is cause for alarm. He could start slashing people if he wanted to, and there are quite a few crazy people like that in our world. And certainly cops have dealt with a lot of crazy people and as a result they are always on high alert when they see someone handle a weapon in a public space.

Also, if the officer in question told the teen to put down the knife but he refused, then I could see why he would think the teen was a threat.

He was alone on a streetcar, surrounded outside by literally 20-24 cops. No other cop pulled their gun.

Also, as his body lay dead he was tasered. If there wasn't video the argument would have been "we tried to tase him and he wouldnt stop so we had to shoot him".

He was shot basically because he called the cop a p**sy. The man either should never have been a cop or the culture helped mold him into that kind of cop.

 

[MayorQuimby]

He was alone on a streetcar, surrounded outside by literally 20-24 cops. No other cop pulled their gun.

Also, as his body lay dead he was tasered. If there wasn't video the argument would have been "we tried to tase him and he wouldnt stop so we had to shoot him".

He was shot basically because he called the cop a p**sy. The man either should never have been a cop or the culture helped mold him into that kind of cop.

If he wasn't a threat and was shot dead simply for insulting a cop, then of course the cop is in the wrong. However, it's just an incredibly dumb thing to do to a cop. Especially if someone is from an immigrant culture and is male, and is carrying a knife. All of these factors can make a cop more willing to draw weapon.

In the US, it is a felony to lie to the FBI. We should consider making it some type of crime or infraction for people to provoke cops like that. Police officers work hard to keep our communities safe, they shouldn't be verbally abused like that.

 

[shockedcanadian]

If he wasn't a threat and was shot dead simply for insulting a cop, then of course the cop is in the wrong. However, it's just an incredibly dumb thing to do to a cop. Especially if someone is from an immigrant culture and is male, and is carrying a knife. All of these factors can make a cop more willing to draw weapon.

In the US, it is a felony to lie to the FBI. We should consider making it some type of crime or infraction for people to provoke cops like that. Police officers work hard to keep our communities safe, they shouldn't be verbally abused like that.

Yes, he wasn't the smartest kid obviously. He was 18, had mental problems and he didn't even stab anyone when the streetcar was full, he pulled it out and someone said "he has a knife" and it emptied.

He had mental problems and asked for someone to call his dad. Look, being provoked with a few nasty names is not the end of the world and shouldn't require a death. We have single mothers working two jobs who have to take B.S all day for $15. an hour not $150k a year.

 

[sealybobo]

Obvious first degree murder.
No one can shoot someone who it not in the process of attacking them.
There was no attack or threat.
Holding a knife is not threatening.
So this is then 1st degree murder.
If this was an ordinary person, it might only be 2nd degree murder, since an ordinary person could be upset and emotional about the knife.
But a cop is supposed to be trained to not be so easily frightened.

Not 1st degree unless you can prove he got up that morning with a plan to kill someone. So 2nd degree for sure. And I watch crime tv all the time. Too many cold blooded ruthless evil murderers get out in 5, 10, 18 or 20 years. So as a cop, I would tend to air on the side of the guy abused his power, should never be a cop again, but unless I found out he was raping people he was pulling over, or if I found out he had a couple other suspect kills, I'd probably go a little lighter on him. Because he was a cop.

But sometimes the judge goes the other way because he abused his power.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Not 1st degree unless you can prove he got up that morning with a plan to kill someone. So 2nd degree for sure. And I watch crime tv all the time. Too many cold blooded ruthless evil murderers get out in 5, 10, 18 or 20 years. So as a cop, I would tend to air on the side of the guy abused his power, should never be a cop again, but unless I found out he was raping people he was pulling over, or if I found out he had a couple other suspect kills, I'd probably go a little lighter on him. Because he was a cop.

But sometimes the judge goes the other way because he abused his power.

To think that American police are helping Canadian police to ruin my career.

I've scratched Florida off my list of places to live. I can't live among chicken shytes who assist Canadian chicken shytes . Texas or Arizona produce citizens worthy of being around.