How exactly is being pro-capital punishment consistent with being pro-life?

[Conservative65]

Difference is that the murderer has proven him/herself as worthless. The innocent unborn baby has done nothing.

That you don't see the difference is obvious.

It's not so much that I don't understand the difference you're drawing. It's that I don't agree with your essential belief that the inherent value of a life can be lost. I've been through all kinds of shit with the pro-abortion crowd on this too. Life has inherent and inalienable value by mere virtue of being alive. You can't increase the value of your life over that of someone else's. You can't lose the value of your life. Mine will never be more or less valuable or worthy of protection that yours. Supposedly our country was partially founded on this idea of an inalienable right to life, though that isn't now and has never been the case in practice.

Never said I could increase the value of my life over someone else's. My argument is that by their actions, people can lessen the value of their own.

While people have the right to life, when they make choices that go against what being alive involves in the way of personal responsibility, that give up that right by the actions they voluntarily chose to take.

 

[peach174]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

It about protecting innocent life.
Murdering inside the womb or Murdering outside the womb it's still Murder.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But the catholic church doesn't consider it innocent once its born.

1. yes, the issue of value of life is not determined by innocence or guilt
but life is seen as having a positive spiritual value and purpose UNCONDITIONALLY

By whom? It's fascinating that you think "this is my perspective" equals "thus, this is objective reality for everyone". Particularly on a topic like abortion, where the very heart of the conflict is that some people see no value in human life at all, much less unconditionally.

The fact of the matter is that "all life has the same value" is YOUR VIEWPOINT. It is an OPINION, not objective fact. For many people, the amount that a life is valued is very much affected by the innocence or guilt of that life. And since that's an opinion, just as your perspective is, you can really only say you disagree with them, not that they're wrong.

Exactly, this is a religious value that does not judge people's value based on what you do right or wrong,
but the value of life and ability to correct whatever is wrong without having to take life unnaturally.

When did the College of Cardinals elect YOU Pope? I know many Catholics who would tell you the Church is quite interested in innocence or guilt. Also that they're quite invested in the concept of atonement, which would tie in with the idea of forfeiting your life for taking one.

Why do you always try to derail every damn thread? Not everything is about the ACA.

2. The ACA provides proof that liberals are biased in pushing BELIEFS through govt and are
NOT about "separating church and state" since they are willing to establish their own beliefs by law over the beliefs of others. So this ACA now negates any liberal arguments for prochoice as defending "freedom of choice"
but show it is agenda-driven, ie only defending prochoice depending if the choices follow liberal agenda or not.

Now all arguments concerning "political beliefs" can be compared against ACA as the standard for what
liberals showed they are "willing to compromise" by pushing their beliefs through govt against the "free choice" of others.

3.

Your answer is not related to my comment.

Sorry Luddly Neddite please explain what you think is "weird and creepy" then,
if my comment did not explain how the "two are related." Thanks![/QUOTE]

 

[Cecilie1200]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Dewd, you work in stupidity like Rembrandt worked in oils.

Criminals are sentenced to death in this Country for committing a grievous, aggravated murder(s)

What did the baby do wrong that it deserves to die?

moron

This argument continually misses the point. Nobody's claiming that vicious murderers don't deserve to die and when they do, no wrong has been committed. We're arguing that if we have a choice, we ought always to err on the side of life and allow a righteous God to tender final judgment.

The problem comes when you argue that that is the objective truth for everyone, rather than simply your personal perspective. Truth is, the Bible certainly does not indicate that we should go, "Oh, well, we'll just skip it. God'll handle it eventually." Quite the opposite, since when God weighed in on the question of capital punishment, He was for it.

 

[daws101]

Which one of these do you think most likely has killed someone who didn't deserve to die?

This one:

or
this one:

one did and the other one might....

 

[M14 Shooter]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

 

[daws101]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..
if the op is a Christian and not rationalizing it's a big problem...

 

[M14 Shooter]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

 

[daws101]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

sure is ....
Killing
Matthew 5:21 ESV / 135 helpful votes [/paste:font]
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’

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Exodus 20:13 ESV / 97 helpful votes
“You shall not murder.

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Exodus 23:7 ESV / 69 helpful votes
Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.

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Ezekiel 33:8 ESV / 64 helpful votes
If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

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Deuteronomy 5:17 ESV / 43 helpful votes
“‘You shall not murder.

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Romans 13:4 ESV / 35 helpful votes
For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

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Romans 13:8-10 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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Genesis 9:5-6 ESV / 28 helpful votes
And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

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Exodus 21:22-25 ESV / 27 helpful votes
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

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Matthew 26:52-54 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

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Revelation 21:8 ESV / 18 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

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Deuteronomy 28:1-68 ESV / 16 helpful votes
“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. ...

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1 Timothy 6:10 ESV / 12 helpful votes
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

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Proverbs 6:17 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

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James 4:7 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

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Hosea 13:16 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

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Matthew 15:19 ESV / 10 helpful votes
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

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Exodus 21:12-14 ESV / 10 helpful votes
“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

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Hosea 9:11-16 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird— no birth, no pregnancy, no conception! Even if they bring up children, I will bereave them till none is left. Woe to them when I depart from them! Ephraim, as I have seen, was like a young palm planted in a meadow; but Ephraim must lead his children out to slaughter. Give them, O Lord— what will you give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels. ...

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Matthew 22:34-40 ESV / 4 helpful votes
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. ...

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[Cecilie1200]

This argument continually misses the point. Nobody's claiming that vicious murderers don't deserve to die and when they do, no wrong has been committed. We're arguing that if we have a choice, we ought always to err on the side of life and allow a righteous God to tender final judgment.

It's not even really religious though. In the case of a murderer, at least one life has already been lost. The murderer is no longer much of a threat if they've already been caught and found guilty. Why should another life be taken when that threat has been neutralized non-violently? What gives us the right to kill someone who's already locked up under high security? "Justice?" There's no justice in that. None of the lives they took will stop being dead if we kill them. It would just be pointless, petty retribution at that point. If they can mentally handle freedom, then they need to be reformed through the penitentiary system. That's what it was always actually for anyway. If not, then keep them penned up somewhere they can be kept under close supervision and allow them to work for the benefit of society and their own well being from there. That we don't do this and treat prison as an industry and punishment rather than a place to work on your own reform is exactly why the Scandinavian system outpaces our own.

I will definitely tell the nice old couple here in town who were killed by a convicted murderer who escaped from prison that he wasn't a threat after he was caught and found guilty. Oh, wait, I can't, because he KILLED THEM. AFTER being caught and found guilty. Who'da thunk it?

Why should another life be taken? Maybe because the taking of a life is so heinous that only the forfeit of something as valuable as a life can pay for it? What do you think expiates the brutal, deliberate ending of a human life? A couple of years in a cell?

What gives us the right? Who says rights are given? Aren't rights, by definition, simply in existence? I would say that the right to take life in exchange for the outrage of murder originates from the same place as the right to take freedom for that outrage, which you seem to have no problem with. Both life and liberty are among the "inalienable rights" that Thomas Jefferson spoke of, after all.

Who says there's no justice in it? You? Certainly not everyone, or capital punishment wouldn't now be part of the criminal JUSTICE system. Obviously, some people think it's quite just.

Who said the operative point had to be restoring life after death? Where is it written that that is the only standard by which to measure? Locking the murderer up ain't gonna make them stop being dead, either, if that's what you're looking at.

Why do they need to be reformed? Even assuming they can be, which is a large assumption. What purpose is served by reforming them and releasing them? Justice? How is there justice in THAT? And where the hell is it written that the penitentiary system was "always actually for reformation"? Frigging prove it before pompously asserting it and expecting that assertion to serve as proof of something.

In what way is the Scandinavian system "outpacing our own"? Prove it. Then prove that the root cause is what you say it is. Then maybe we'll talk as though this sets a parameter for something. Just because you said it doesn't make me accept it and move on.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

sure is ....
Killing

You fail to understand that you've proven my point.
Killing the innocent is murder. Killing the guilty is not.
I thank you for being honest with your ignorance.

 

[daws101]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

sure is ....
Killing

You fail to understand that you've proven my point.
Killing the innocent is murder. Killing the guilty is not.
I thank you for being honest with your ignorance.

false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.
hey shit head I'm for capital punishment ..the ignorance is all on you
as usual.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How can the OP be so ignorant of the law.

What makes you think the OP has anything to do with the law? He's talking about viewpoints, not laws. Why do you lefties have to run and hide behind the skirts of "The Law" every time you're asked to discuss morality? They aren't the same thing, you know.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

The sheer number of other "pro-life" people who are totally cool with killing people for committing a crime is probably second only to the religiosity of the organized pro-life movement in reasons I try to dissociate myself with it. How can someone justify using this label if they're okay with killing? It kind of seems like trying to say you're a vegan Jew who just happens to reserve and use the right to eat bacon.

Sigh.
Killing the innocent v killing the guilty.
Not sure why it is hard for you to see the difference.

I can. Christianity states flat out killing is a sin..

This is a lie.

sure is ....
Killing

You fail to understand that you've proven my point.
Killing the innocent is murder. Killing the guilty is not.
I thank you for being honest with your ignorance.

To be clear.. I don't support either. But neither is actually murder.

"Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human"

Since both are lawful, they cannot be murder. But again, I don't support abortion or the death penalty.

 

[daws101]

How can the OP be so ignorant of the law.

What makes you think the OP has anything to do with the law? He's talking about viewpoints, not laws. Why do you lefties have to run and hide behind the skirts of "The Law" every time you're asked to discuss morality? They aren't the same thing, you know.

best false assumption of the week...

 

[M14 Shooter]

]false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.

You apparently did not read your post, where it talks about killing the innocent, murder, etc.
Nothing you posted states that killing people is wrong, period, and nothing in your post indicates that killing the guilty, killing in self defense, or killing in war violates the tenets of Christianity.
Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

 

[Cecilie1200]

They don't get it. They equate the punishment of putting someone away as murder.

Putting someone who committed a crime of that nature into confinement away from the free body of society is necessary. That doesn't mean we should revel in it. There's a reason we don't let the often fickle and bloodthirsty crowd decide who lives and who dies. Justice would stop being an applicable concept in our society. Properly served justice has been since the criminal "justice" system became an industry with a public spectacle arm.

While none of the lives the murderer took will stop being dead if the murderer gets what he/she deserves, they won't come back to life if we let the murderer live. When the guilty murderer continuing to live brings the innocent ones back, I'll support letting them live.
And it's our right to decide who lives and who dies? How does that make us any better than the pro-abortion crowd? At least they're admitting that they believe themselves the final arbiters of whether someone is worthy not to be killed. Yes, the murderer is guilty. Yes, the murderer should be punished. Society and justice would be better served with a punishment that doesn't remove yet another life from society and allows the the chance of reforming the guilty into a healthy, productive member of society once again. That was what the penitentiary system was for: penitence. The victims aren't coming back. They don't even exist anymore. Killing the guilty won't allow any reform or penitence because they won't either.

Why is it necessary? Why do you assume anyone's "reveling" in it? You have a very narrow and biased view of what constitutes "justice", as far as I can see.

What makes us better than the pro-abortion crowd? I wasn't aware that was actually the goal, but how about our reasons? Criteria tends to be pretty important in this argument.

WHY would society and justice be better served with a non-lethal punishment? It isn't to keep them in society, because locking them up removes them from society, anyway. Why do we WANT to reform them, even assuming that's possible, which is hardly 100% certain? Is there anything they're going to provide society that's so desperately in need that it mitigates the horror of their act? When did "penitence" and "reformation" become synonyms, and why didn't I get the memo?

Have you considered the possibility that we don't WANT their reformation, and the only remorse we're interested in them feeling is whatever time they have to do so before the needle slides in?

 

[daws101]

]false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.

You apparently did not read your post, where it talks about killing the innocent, murder, etc.
Nothing you posted states that killing people is wrong, period, and nothing in your post indicates that killing the guilty, killing in self defense, or killing in war violates the tenets of Christianity.
Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

excellent rationalizing......

 

[HenryBHough]

Show me an unborn infant who killed a prison guard.

Can't do it?

Than how many spared-the-death-penalty "lifers" have killed prison guards?

Don't rush, you can take off your shoes to count but unless you're a centipede spare yo'self the grouble.

 

[M14 Shooter]

]false I understand completely .....
the bible say that killing is wrong no equivocation...it does not make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent...
there in lies the problem for the OP.

You apparently did not read your post, where it talks about killing the innocent, murder, etc.
Nothing you posted states that killing people is wrong, period, and nothing in your post indicates that killing the guilty, killing in self defense, or killing in war violates the tenets of Christianity.
Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

excellent rationalizing......

Why do you lie to yourself?.

Nothing you quoted states that killing, in toto, violates the tenets of Christianity
Nothing you posted states that killing criminals violates the tenets of Christianity
Nothing you posted states that killing in wartime violates the tenets of Christianity
Nothing you posted states that killing in self defense violates the tenets of Christianity

You're wrong, in spades.