CDZ How Benjamin Netanyahu Freed Me

[Indeependent]

I remember Carter and the gas lines. I remember our people held for 444 days due to this idiot. Iran's beginning as a primary State Sponsor of Terror began on his watch.

He can tout the Camp David Accords were a lasting Peace began with Israel and Egypt. Yet that deal was going down anyway as they had tired from several Wars.

Carter was the worst President until Obama Showed up.

Israel has the right to exist and a right to defend itself..........America hasn't turned it's back on them since the nation was created, and only get fucked with under Liberal Idiot Presidents........They are the only Nation over there we can trust..........the others not so much.

So I stand with Israel. Self Defense Needs No Explanation.

Some explanation might be helpful as the Palestinians also claim self-defense in their struggle against the Israelis. With both sides claiming to own the territory over which both are asserting the right of self defense, surely the question of title to the land has dispositive relevance. Who owns Gaza? Who owns the West Bank? Who owns Jerusalem? Who owns the Bekka Valley? By what legal right are these titles asserted? Has there been a ruling by the prevailing legal authority? Who is that authority anyway?

I am curious to know what answer someone who thinks Israel's claim of self defense needs no explanation would give to these questions which go to the very heart of the matter. Thanks

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

I believe Boston1 did a superb job last night of describing the UN.
And I'm sure your next vacation will be to Syria, Iraq, Libya, Gaza, The West Bank, etc...

 

[Elvis Obama]

I remember Carter and the gas lines. I remember our people held for 444 days due to this idiot. Iran's beginning as a primary State Sponsor of Terror began on his watch.

He can tout the Camp David Accords were a lasting Peace began with Israel and Egypt. Yet that deal was going down anyway as they had tired from several Wars.

Carter was the worst President until Obama Showed up.

Israel has the right to exist and a right to defend itself..........America hasn't turned it's back on them since the nation was created, and only get fucked with under Liberal Idiot Presidents........They are the only Nation over there we can trust..........the others not so much.

So I stand with Israel. Self Defense Needs No Explanation.

Some explanation might be helpful as the Palestinians also claim self-defense in their struggle against the Israelis. With both sides claiming to own the territory over which both are asserting the right of self defense, surely the question of title to the land has dispositive relevance. Who owns Gaza? Who owns the West Bank? Who owns Jerusalem? Who owns the Bekka Valley? By what legal right are these titles asserted? Has there been a ruling by the prevailing legal authority? Who is that authority anyway?

I am curious to know what answer someone who thinks Israel's claim of self defense needs no explanation would give to these questions which go to the very heart of the matter. Thanks

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

It is certainly not a problem that involves only the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are a weapon. They are the most effective weapon the Arabs have to fight against the Great Satan. Palestinian statehood would make the whole region less powerful.

Do I like and approve of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians? No. Do I understand the strategy behind such policy? No. Do I understand the conditions which have given rise to that policy? Yes.

You seem to be denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. You seem to be denying the need and the right of the Israelis to self defense. You seem to be willfully ignorant of the character of the region.

The truth is a simple one. Israel is pragmatic, the Arab states are not.

 

[Fishlore]

I remember Carter and the gas lines. I remember our people held for 444 days due to this idiot. Iran's beginning as a primary State Sponsor of Terror began on his watch.

He can tout the Camp David Accords were a lasting Peace began with Israel and Egypt. Yet that deal was going down anyway as they had tired from several Wars.

Carter was the worst President until Obama Showed up.

Israel has the right to exist and a right to defend itself..........America hasn't turned it's back on them since the nation was created, and only get fucked with under Liberal Idiot Presidents........They are the only Nation over there we can trust..........the others not so much.

So I stand with Israel. Self Defense Needs No Explanation.

Some explanation might be helpful as the Palestinians also claim self-defense in their struggle against the Israelis. With both sides claiming to own the territory over which both are asserting the right of self defense, surely the question of title to the land has dispositive relevance. Who owns Gaza? Who owns the West Bank? Who owns Jerusalem? Who owns the Bekka Valley? By what legal right are these titles asserted? Has there been a ruling by the prevailing legal authority? Who is that authority anyway?

I am curious to know what answer someone who thinks Israel's claim of self defense needs no explanation would give to these questions which go to the very heart of the matter. Thanks

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

It is certainly not a problem that involves only the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are a weapon. They are the most effective weapon the Arabs have to fight against the Great Satan. Palestinian statehood would make the whole region less powerful.

Do I like and approve of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians? No. Do I understand the strategy behind such policy? No. Do I understand the conditions which have given rise to that policy? Yes.

You seem to be denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. You seem to be denying the need and the right of the Israelis to self defense. You seem to be willfully ignorant of the character of the region.

The truth is a simple one. Israel is pragmatic, the Arab states are not.

No truth about Israel is simple. The UN Charter, to which all member nations agreed, requires that consent of local inhabitants be obtained before states are created or boundaries changed. This rule was not followed when the UN ratified the creation of the state of Israel, The Arab position in this regard is one of those complicated truths.

Following the 1967 war, Israel announced the annexation of Jerusalem and the occupation of Jordanian territory on the west bank of the River Jordan. No nation, including the USA, as well as the UN accepted these declarations as legal. Subsequently, Israel announced its annexation of the Bekka Valley and a policy of civilian "settlements" along with military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. No nations in the UN including the US accepted the legality of these military conquests. These are pretty simple historical truths.

Now, things get complicated again. The US declared a policy of a "peace process," a treaty negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian authority under the aegis of the USA which would settle the boundaries of the Palestinian state promised by the UN, subject to acceptance of the UN. After decades of stalling, Israel became governed by a right wing coalition led by the Likud Party. The pace of "settlements" increased. Israel backed away from the US brokered agreement on Palestinian borders and land swaps. These are complicated truths.

And that is how we got where we are today. The USA remains committed to a Palestinian state ratified by the UN. Israel declines, yet the USA continues to protect Israel's defiance with its Security Council veto and billions in aid and assistance. The rest of the world is united in refusing to accept the legitimacy of Israel's position.

 

[Elvis Obama]

I remember Carter and the gas lines. I remember our people held for 444 days due to this idiot. Iran's beginning as a primary State Sponsor of Terror began on his watch.

He can tout the Camp David Accords were a lasting Peace began with Israel and Egypt. Yet that deal was going down anyway as they had tired from several Wars.

Carter was the worst President until Obama Showed up.

Israel has the right to exist and a right to defend itself..........America hasn't turned it's back on them since the nation was created, and only get fucked with under Liberal Idiot Presidents........They are the only Nation over there we can trust..........the others not so much.

So I stand with Israel. Self Defense Needs No Explanation.

Some explanation might be helpful as the Palestinians also claim self-defense in their struggle against the Israelis. With both sides claiming to own the territory over which both are asserting the right of self defense, surely the question of title to the land has dispositive relevance. Who owns Gaza? Who owns the West Bank? Who owns Jerusalem? Who owns the Bekka Valley? By what legal right are these titles asserted? Has there been a ruling by the prevailing legal authority? Who is that authority anyway?

I am curious to know what answer someone who thinks Israel's claim of self defense needs no explanation would give to these questions which go to the very heart of the matter. Thanks

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

It is certainly not a problem that involves only the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are a weapon. They are the most effective weapon the Arabs have to fight against the Great Satan. Palestinian statehood would make the whole region less powerful.

Do I like and approve of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians? No. Do I understand the strategy behind such policy? No. Do I understand the conditions which have given rise to that policy? Yes.

You seem to be denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. You seem to be denying the need and the right of the Israelis to self defense. You seem to be willfully ignorant of the character of the region.

The truth is a simple one. Israel is pragmatic, the Arab states are not.

No truth about Israel is simple. The UN Charter, to which all member nations agreed, requires that consent of local inhabitants be obtained before states are created or boundaries changed. This rule was not followed when the UN ratified the creation of the state of Israel, The Arab position in this regard is one of those complicated truths.

Following the 1967 war, Israel announced the annexation of Jerusalem and the occupation of Jordanian territory on the west bank of the River Jordan. No nation, including the USA, as well as the UN accepted these declarations as legal. Subsequently, Israel announced its annexation of the Bekka Valley and a policy of civilian "settlements" along with military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. No nations in the UN including the US accepted the legality of these military conquests. These are pretty simple historical truths.

Now, things get complicated again. The US declared a policy of a "peace process," a treaty negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian authority under the aegis of the USA which would settle the boundaries of the Palestinian state promised by the UN, subject to acceptance of the UN. After decades of stalling, Israel became governed by a right wing coalition led by the Likud Party. The pace of "settlements" increased. Israel backed away from the US brokered agreement on Palestinian borders and land swaps. These are complicated truths.

And that is how we got where we are today. The USA remains committed to a Palestinian state ratified by the UN. Israel declines, yet the USA continues to protect Israel's defiance with its Security Council veto and billions in aid and assistance. The rest of the world is united in refusing to accept the legitimacy of Israel's position.

No truth about Israel is simple. We can agree about that. Nonetheless, Israel is considerably more pragmatic than the people they are forced to try to negotiate with.

The question of Israel's legitimacy is a valid one, and the contradiction of a representative democracy being founded for the benefit of a single religious group is a problem that represents an existential threat to them. Still, there they are. A country full of gurgling babies and productive industries. Whatever shall we do with them? Of course, that's a legitimate question to ask about any of the cesspools that claim legitimacy as nations in that region. In fact, it seems incredibly obvious to me that the neighbors are the bigger problem.

 

[Fishlore]

Some explanation might be helpful as the Palestinians also claim self-defense in their struggle against the Israelis. With both sides claiming to own the territory over which both are asserting the right of self defense, surely the question of title to the land has dispositive relevance. Who owns Gaza? Who owns the West Bank? Who owns Jerusalem? Who owns the Bekka Valley? By what legal right are these titles asserted? Has there been a ruling by the prevailing legal authority? Who is that authority anyway?

I am curious to know what answer someone who thinks Israel's claim of self defense needs no explanation would give to these questions which go to the very heart of the matter. Thanks

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

It is certainly not a problem that involves only the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are a weapon. They are the most effective weapon the Arabs have to fight against the Great Satan. Palestinian statehood would make the whole region less powerful.

Do I like and approve of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians? No. Do I understand the strategy behind such policy? No. Do I understand the conditions which have given rise to that policy? Yes.

You seem to be denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. You seem to be denying the need and the right of the Israelis to self defense. You seem to be willfully ignorant of the character of the region.

The truth is a simple one. Israel is pragmatic, the Arab states are not.

No truth about Israel is simple. The UN Charter, to which all member nations agreed, requires that consent of local inhabitants be obtained before states are created or boundaries changed. This rule was not followed when the UN ratified the creation of the state of Israel, The Arab position in this regard is one of those complicated truths.

Following the 1967 war, Israel announced the annexation of Jerusalem and the occupation of Jordanian territory on the west bank of the River Jordan. No nation, including the USA, as well as the UN accepted these declarations as legal. Subsequently, Israel announced its annexation of the Bekka Valley and a policy of civilian "settlements" along with military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. No nations in the UN including the US accepted the legality of these military conquests. These are pretty simple historical truths.

Now, things get complicated again. The US declared a policy of a "peace process," a treaty negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian authority under the aegis of the USA which would settle the boundaries of the Palestinian state promised by the UN, subject to acceptance of the UN. After decades of stalling, Israel became governed by a right wing coalition led by the Likud Party. The pace of "settlements" increased. Israel backed away from the US brokered agreement on Palestinian borders and land swaps. These are complicated truths.

And that is how we got where we are today. The USA remains committed to a Palestinian state ratified by the UN. Israel declines, yet the USA continues to protect Israel's defiance with its Security Council veto and billions in aid and assistance. The rest of the world is united in refusing to accept the legitimacy of Israel's position.

No truth about Israel is simple. We can agree about that. Nonetheless, Israel is considerably more pragmatic than the people they are forced to try to negotiate with.

The question of Israel's legitimacy is a valid one, and the contradiction of a representative democracy being founded for the benefit of a single religious group is a problem that represents an existential threat to them. Still, there they are. A country full of gurgling babies and productive industries. Whatever shall we do with them? Of course, that's a legitimate question to ask about any of the cesspools that claim legitimacy as nations in that region. In fact, it seems incredibly obvious to me that the neighbors are the bigger problem.

You are right that the neighbors are the problem. If Israel were located on the border between Norway and Sweden things would be quite different indeed. Of course, the Arabs suggested that Northern Europe would be a more suitable location as a homeland for Polish and German Jews displaced by WWII, but that is another story.

Your post does point to an important aspect of the Israeli-Palestinian problem: it is a problem in the ecology not the ideology. Jews will be Jews and Muslims will be Muslims and nothing that we can do is going to change that. Ecologically speaking, European Zionism is an invasive species that has taken root on the banks of the Jordan. It isn't Torah which causes the terrorism and the air strikes, it is the distinctly European form of the Zionist sect within Judaism which got us into this mess. But what to do?

The original European Zionists Chaim Weizmann, David Ben Gurion etc. saw this ecological challenge very clearly. Their answer was to strengthen the non-European (Sephardic) side of Jewish tradition. The currency is the shekel, not the pound. Israel speaks Hebrew with a Sephardic, not Ashkenazi accent etc. The second principle was mutually profitable economic integration, an alliance with Muslim neighbors in which the European capital of the new Israel would profit the entire economy, making the Zionist Jews valuable neighbors. A similar sort of partnership existed at the time in neighboring Lebanon where Marionite Christians, Alawites etc. performed valuable activities in banking, medicine, recreation etc. for the larger Muslim region.

That rather shrewd strategy of the first Israelis was gradually undermined by outside Arab hostility fanned by Muslim Rage and the Cold War. The aggressive "Never Again!" response of American Jews didn't help much either. With the rise of Likud and its Revisionist Zionism ideology under the son of Benzion Netanyahu, the original strategy, now recast as "the road to peace," was finally laid to rest.

The big problem is that nobody has a workable substitute.

 

[Elvis Obama]

The fact that there are "Palestinians" demonstrates how well Israel treats those which with they have a conflict.

The last time Israel had a conflict it was with "Romans" back in 70 CE.

It is a great mistake to think that Israel is in conflict only with "Palestinians," a relatively small group of well-educated and pro-
Western Arab Muslim. The Palestinian group is the hero of some four hundred million Arabs and the favorite of a billion Muslims around the world.

The Palestinian cause has the overwhelming support of the United Nations. The United States has recognized that the West Bank settlements are illegal. The USA has never recognized the seizure of all of Jerusalem and the Bekka Valley either.

Likud believes it can just keep shooting until the world gives up and recognizes its illegal land grab. It ain't never gonna happen because the rest of the world has too much invested in the UN to let a few million Zionists reduce ti the old League of Nations.

It is certainly not a problem that involves only the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are a weapon. They are the most effective weapon the Arabs have to fight against the Great Satan. Palestinian statehood would make the whole region less powerful.

Do I like and approve of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians? No. Do I understand the strategy behind such policy? No. Do I understand the conditions which have given rise to that policy? Yes.

You seem to be denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. You seem to be denying the need and the right of the Israelis to self defense. You seem to be willfully ignorant of the character of the region.

The truth is a simple one. Israel is pragmatic, the Arab states are not.

No truth about Israel is simple. The UN Charter, to which all member nations agreed, requires that consent of local inhabitants be obtained before states are created or boundaries changed. This rule was not followed when the UN ratified the creation of the state of Israel, The Arab position in this regard is one of those complicated truths.

Following the 1967 war, Israel announced the annexation of Jerusalem and the occupation of Jordanian territory on the west bank of the River Jordan. No nation, including the USA, as well as the UN accepted these declarations as legal. Subsequently, Israel announced its annexation of the Bekka Valley and a policy of civilian "settlements" along with military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. No nations in the UN including the US accepted the legality of these military conquests. These are pretty simple historical truths.

Now, things get complicated again. The US declared a policy of a "peace process," a treaty negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian authority under the aegis of the USA which would settle the boundaries of the Palestinian state promised by the UN, subject to acceptance of the UN. After decades of stalling, Israel became governed by a right wing coalition led by the Likud Party. The pace of "settlements" increased. Israel backed away from the US brokered agreement on Palestinian borders and land swaps. These are complicated truths.

And that is how we got where we are today. The USA remains committed to a Palestinian state ratified by the UN. Israel declines, yet the USA continues to protect Israel's defiance with its Security Council veto and billions in aid and assistance. The rest of the world is united in refusing to accept the legitimacy of Israel's position.

No truth about Israel is simple. We can agree about that. Nonetheless, Israel is considerably more pragmatic than the people they are forced to try to negotiate with.

The question of Israel's legitimacy is a valid one, and the contradiction of a representative democracy being founded for the benefit of a single religious group is a problem that represents an existential threat to them. Still, there they are. A country full of gurgling babies and productive industries. Whatever shall we do with them? Of course, that's a legitimate question to ask about any of the cesspools that claim legitimacy as nations in that region. In fact, it seems incredibly obvious to me that the neighbors are the bigger problem.

You are right that the neighbors are the problem. If Israel were located on the border between Norway and Sweden things would be quite different indeed. Of course, the Arabs suggested that Northern Europe would be a more suitable location as a homeland for Polish and German Jews displaced by WWII, but that is another story.

Your post does point to an important aspect of the Israeli-Palestinian problem: it is a problem in the ecology not the ideology. Jews will be Jews and Muslims will be Muslims and nothing that we can do is going to change that. Ecologically speaking, European Zionism is an invasive species that has taken root on the banks of the Jordan. It isn't Torah which causes the terrorism and the air strikes, it is the distinctly European form of the Zionist sect within Judaism which got us into this mess. But what to do?

The original European Zionists Chaim Weizmann, David Ben Gurion etc. saw this ecological challenge very clearly. Their answer was to strengthen the non-European (Sephardic) side of Jewish tradition. The currency is the shekel, not the pound. Israel speaks Hebrew with a Sephardic, not Ashkenazi accent etc. The second principle was mutually profitable economic integration, an alliance with Muslim neighbors in which the European capital of the new Israel would profit the entire economy, making the Zionist Jews valuable neighbors. A similar sort of partnership existed at the time in neighboring Lebanon where Marionite Christians, Alawites etc. performed valuable activities in banking, medicine, recreation etc. for the larger Muslim region.

That rather shrewd strategy of the first Israelis was gradually undermined by outside Arab hostility fanned by Muslim Rage and the Cold War. The aggressive "Never Again!" response of American Jews didn't help much either. With the rise of Likud and its Revisionist Zionism ideology under the son of Benzion Netanyahu, the original strategy, now recast as "the road to peace," was finally laid to rest.

The big problem is that nobody has a workable substitute.

What you've been writing thus far has been kind of standard boiler-plate anti-Zionism. This is not. I don't know what to make of this analysis.

European versus non-European Zionism? Spain is in Europe, last I checked. The Sephardim are Jews. The Sephardim are very successful and powerful. They were not "imported" by Chaim Weizmann. The mix which existed in Palestine was the result of combing the globe for every single power that could help Zionist goals. The Sephardim were in the mix from the start. For their money and influence.

Shrewd strategy? Gradually undermined by Arab hostility? Of course the Zionists sought economic integration into the region. As opposed to what? Arab hostility grew as Zionism became more and more successful and their own efforts at international influence were taken less seriously, but the nation of Israel has never known anything but war.

Never Again created Israel. It crystallized world opinion. It didn't create Zionism but it pushed it over the goal line. If only the Arabs had the sophistication required to have made their agenda front and center. They didn't. That's the difference between them and the "European invaders" you rail on about. All of human history is a diaspora. People are constantly migrating or being displaced, by war or UN fiat. Big deal.

Maybe it was all a mistake. Maybe the location was ill chosen. Still, there they are, and there is no workable solution in sight for their woes. There never was, because the people they are forced to deal with as neighbors are not like European folks. They have not achieved that level of social sophistication. They are untouched by the Enlightenment principles which we try, often unsuccessfully, to implement. We try and fail in Israel and the US and France and England, but we still try, and what we are trying to do is important. I will never understand the mindset that tries to create a false equivalency between all cultures.