Help: to explain animal vs human free will

[AmericanFirst]

HELP! can ANYONE help me with this one:

I got stuck with a friend on the free will issue.

I said that the will/consciousness/conscience of human beings is DIFFERENT from the sentient ability of animals.

He disagrees.

He keeps talking about the spiritual connection with all life, which I agree with.

When he separates humans from animals, he uses the terms "intelligence" to confirm that people are more "intelligent" than animals; and he also says people have made bad or worse mistakes/choices and that is why we have that responsibility to fix them. but he says animals have equal responsibility for their destructive or productive actions, and I disagree, that animal instinct is not on the same level of human consciousness and free will. (I believe the mistakes/lessons by humanity are already on a different/higher level than animals who do not carry karma/sin like humans carry into future generations until these are resolved. So there is a REASON we make mistake with more global impact, and it is NOT just by our intelligence but by our spiritual level of connection by conscience that is different. He thinks the spiritual connection of animals/plants is equal; I agree it is equally important in the sense of the whole creation, but the free will and knowledge that man carries has a higher responsibility or path than nature/knowledge animals have.)

YIKES!

My point is that human nature has a higher component to it BY DESIGN and not like animals do; it is NOT that we are "more important than animals because we are human" it is our spiritual nature and responsibility we have as humans that makes us different that is more important to use correctly.

Can anyone help me, I must be miscommunicating and maybe he uses "intelligence" to say what I am trying to say. But even there he thinks it is possible for animal intelligence to change the same as human intelligence to change, but that is NOT the same!

Can ANYONE give an analogy an example that would explain
how humans have a different spiritual level and it is not just intelligence
but by the design of human nature?

HELP HELP HELP thanks!

God gave man dominion over all animals. We are not equal in any way. We are not connected spiritually or any other way.

 

[tonystewart1]

Good and evil are concepts invented by man to help him decide what to do with his absurd situation.
We have no clear purpose for even existing other than to procreate more of our own kind.
We are aware of ourselves but have no real idea what we are supposed to do or why we are supposed to do it.
All we can do is make things up and try to convince ourselves and others that we know what we're doing.

Sorry brother but that is dark. Where does that come from?

Observation. Do you think our mankind has a loftier or maybe brighter purpose ? I know a lot of people have come along since the beginning of time to try to convince us all of higher purposes and noble causes but how realistic are they ?

I dont know about noble causes but as far as higher purposes we have those. To love and be loved by God and to love those around you.

Even if you dont beileve in God what about love. Love for a spouse, brother, sister, child. Developing relationships in life that make your life fuller.

 

[tonystewart1]

HELP! can ANYONE help me with this one:

I got stuck with a friend on the free will issue.

I said that the will/consciousness/conscience of human beings is DIFFERENT from the sentient ability of animals.

He disagrees.

He keeps talking about the spiritual connection with all life, which I agree with.

When he separates humans from animals, he uses the terms "intelligence" to confirm that people are more "intelligent" than animals; and he also says people have made bad or worse mistakes/choices and that is why we have that responsibility to fix them. but he says animals have equal responsibility for their destructive or productive actions, and I disagree, that animal instinct is not on the same level of human consciousness and free will. (I believe the mistakes/lessons by humanity are already on a different/higher level than animals who do not carry karma/sin like humans carry into future generations until these are resolved. So there is a REASON we make mistake with more global impact, and it is NOT just by our intelligence but by our spiritual level of connection by conscience that is different. He thinks the spiritual connection of animals/plants is equal; I agree it is equally important in the sense of the whole creation, but the free will and knowledge that man carries has a higher responsibility or path than nature/knowledge animals have.)

YIKES!

My point is that human nature has a higher component to it BY DESIGN and not like animals do; it is NOT that we are "more important than animals because we are human" it is our spiritual nature and responsibility we have as humans that makes us different that is more important to use correctly.

Can anyone help me, I must be miscommunicating and maybe he uses "intelligence" to say what I am trying to say. But even there he thinks it is possible for animal intelligence to change the same as human intelligence to change, but that is NOT the same!

Can ANYONE give an analogy an example that would explain
how humans have a different spiritual level and it is not just intelligence
but by the design of human nature?

HELP HELP HELP thanks!

God gave man dominion over all animals. We are not equal in any way. We are not connected spiritually or any other way.

I agree. Animals can not sin they have no soul. They are creatures that basically run on programming that helps them survive. Humans have a divine spark, an awarness of God, and an ability to have a realtionship with Him.

 

[dilloduck]

Sorry brother but that is dark. Where does that come from?

Observation. Do you think our mankind has a loftier or maybe brighter purpose ? I know a lot of people have come along since the beginning of time to try to convince us all of higher purposes and noble causes but how realistic are they ?

I dont know about noble causes but as far as higher purposes we have those. To love and be loved by God and to love those around you.

Even if you dont beileve in God what about love. Love for a spouse, brother, sister, child. Developing relationships in life that make your life fuller.

They are only higher because someone claims them to be. There are all sorts of things we can do to make our lives more emotional or dramatic but the truth is still that we don't know what we are destined to do or why.

 

[tonystewart1]

Observation. Do you think our mankind has a loftier or maybe brighter purpose ? I know a lot of people have come along since the beginning of time to try to convince us all of higher purposes and noble causes but how realistic are they ?

I dont know about noble causes but as far as higher purposes we have those. To love and be loved by God and to love those around you.

Even if you dont beileve in God what about love. Love for a spouse, brother, sister, child. Developing relationships in life that make your life fuller.

They are only higher because someone claims them to be. There are all sorts of things we can do to make our lives more emotional or dramatic but the truth is still that we don't know what we are destined to do or why.

I am destined to server the Lord with all my heart and to go to heaven for eternity when I die.

I dont beileve that because it make the bitter pill of life easier to swallow. I beileve it because I have absolute faith that it is true. An awareness I came into on my own accord.

I guess I cant concieve of living life beileving it is all meaninless.

To each his own but it would probably not hurt you to explore you spiritual side and seek meaning for life. Try reading the bible or going to church. Meditate. There is more to it than you seem to realize.

 

[midcan5]

The only distinction I see is humans have more choices, does that mean they have free will while other animals do not? Do choices equate to freedom, I don't think so because freedom always involves a context for all animals. The argument that instinct drives animals other than humans, and that humans reason, strikes me as idealistic. Lots of things go before an act and at the moment of decision the idea that any option is open to the agent seems naive. But debates on free will often strike me as meaningless, in the end it is the pudding that matters. If humans acted like humans are idealized to act, I could see distinctions but given our history there is not lots to be proud of. If you or your friend would like to read a fascinating read on this topic check out Derrick Jensen's 'A langauge older than Words.'

"And what brings my deliberations on this matter to a close? This blog post must end sometime—and now I find that I want to get lunch. Am I free to resist this feeling? Well, yes, in the sense that no one is going to compel me at gunpoint to eat lunch this minute—but I’m hungry, and I want to eat it. Can I resist this feeling for a moment longer? Yes, of course—and for an indeterminate number of moments thereafter. But I am in no position to know why I make the effort in this instance but not in others. And why do my efforts cease precisely when they do? Now I feel that it is time for me to leave in any case. I’m hungry, yes, but it also seems like I’ve made my point. In fact, I can’t think of anything else to say on the subject. And where is the freedom in that?" The Blog : You Do Not Choose What You Choose : Sam Harris

 

[dilloduck]

I dont know about noble causes but as far as higher purposes we have those. To love and be loved by God and to love those around you.

Even if you dont beileve in God what about love. Love for a spouse, brother, sister, child. Developing relationships in life that make your life fuller.

They are only higher because someone claims them to be. There are all sorts of things we can do to make our lives more emotional or dramatic but the truth is still that we don't know what we are destined to do or why.

I am destined to server the Lord with all my heart and to go to heaven for eternity when I die.

I dont beileve that because it make the bitter pill of life easier to swallow. I beileve it because I have absolute faith that it is true. An awareness I came into on my own accord.

I guess I cant concieve of living life beileving it is all meaninless.

To each his own but it would probably not hurt you to explore you spiritual side and seek meaning for life. Try reading the bible or going to church. Meditate. There is more to it than you seem to realize.

I have no doubts that you cannot conceive of a life without knowing it's meaning. It's not easy for people to deal with the unknown and ever changing.
I'm glad you've chosen a destiny that you are comfortable with. What makes you think that I haven't explored "spirituality" or need a purpose ?

 

[tonystewart1]

They are only higher because someone claims them to be. There are all sorts of things we can do to make our lives more emotional or dramatic but the truth is still that we don't know what we are destined to do or why.

I am destined to server the Lord with all my heart and to go to heaven for eternity when I die.

I dont beileve that because it make the bitter pill of life easier to swallow. I beileve it because I have absolute faith that it is true. An awareness I came into on my own accord.

I guess I cant concieve of living life beileving it is all meaninless.

To each his own but it would probably not hurt you to explore you spiritual side and seek meaning for life. Try reading the bible or going to church. Meditate. There is more to it than you seem to realize.

I have no doubts that you cannot conceive of a life without knowing it's meaning. It's not easy for people to deal with the unknown and ever changing.
I'm glad you've chosen a destiny that you are comfortable with. What makes you think that I haven't explored "spirituality" or need a purpose ?

I dont mean to offend you if I have. Your posts on this topic seem so sad and resigned. You almost sound lost or hurt. Maybe I have read something into them that is not there.

 

[syrenn]

Animals do that they want... free will
Humans have guilt,morals, demands of society and religion.... not so much free will.

So tell me....who has free will?

 

[dilloduck]

I am destined to server the Lord with all my heart and to go to heaven for eternity when I die.

I dont beileve that because it make the bitter pill of life easier to swallow. I beileve it because I have absolute faith that it is true. An awareness I came into on my own accord.

I guess I cant concieve of living life beileving it is all meaninless.

To each his own but it would probably not hurt you to explore you spiritual side and seek meaning for life. Try reading the bible or going to church. Meditate. There is more to it than you seem to realize.

I have no doubts that you cannot conceive of a life without knowing it's meaning. It's not easy for people to deal with the unknown and ever changing.
I'm glad you've chosen a destiny that you are comfortable with. What makes you think that I haven't explored "spirituality" or need a purpose ?

I dont mean to offend you if I have. Your posts on this topic seem so sad and resigned. You almost sound lost or hurt. Maybe I have read something into them that is not there.

No offense taken. Ending up in heaven or being happy just seems to be a rather shallow purpose invented by man to direct his actions.

 

[syrenn]

I have no doubts that you cannot conceive of a life without knowing it's meaning. It's not easy for people to deal with the unknown and ever changing.
I'm glad you've chosen a destiny that you are comfortable with. What makes you think that I haven't explored "spirituality" or need a purpose ?

I dont mean to offend you if I have. Your posts on this topic seem so sad and resigned. You almost sound lost or hurt. Maybe I have read something into them that is not there.

No offense taken. Ending up in heaven or being happy just seems to be a rather shallow purpose invented by man to direct his actions.

i agree

guilt and fear as a way to control the masses.....

 

[dilloduck]

An alien lands on Earth and says "Why do humans do what they do?"

What is the answer?

 

[tonystewart1]

An alien lands on Earth and says "Why do humans do what they do?"

What is the answer?

If they asked me i would answer "because that is what God wants me to do"


The answer the alien would get would be different depending on the person they asked.

 

[dilloduck]

An alien lands on Earth and says "Why do humans do what they do?"

What is the answer?

If they asked me i would answer "because that is what God wants me to do"


The answer the alien would get would be different depending on the person they asked.

So is that free will ?------describing our actions and motivations in any manner that we wish? Animals certainly aren't free to defend their actions or explain their motivation. If a bird tells me that he flies around because God told him to I guess I would assume he is a slave.

 

[tonystewart1]

An alien lands on Earth and says "Why do humans do what they do?"

What is the answer?

If they asked me i would answer "because that is what God wants me to do"


The answer the alien would get would be different depending on the person they asked.

So is that free will ?------describing our actions and motivations in any manner that we wish? Animals certainly aren't free to defend their actions or explain their motivation. If a bird tells me that he flies around because God told him to I guess I would assume he is a slave.

I do what God wants me to becasue I chose that path. I can at anytime refuse to do what He wants me to do.

Animals do not need to defend their actions or explain anything. They are animals and do not have free will. They are slaves to their instinct to survive and reproduce.

Humans are not slaves to any instinct or God. We are free to ignore Gods guidence and we are free to ignore our instinct to survive and reproduce.

 

[dilloduck]

If they asked me i would answer "because that is what God wants me to do"


The answer the alien would get would be different depending on the person they asked.

So is that free will ?------describing our actions and motivations in any manner that we wish? Animals certainly aren't free to defend their actions or explain their motivation. If a bird tells me that he flies around because God told him to I guess I would assume he is a slave.

I do what God wants me to becasue I chose that path. I can at anytime refuse to do what He wants me to do.

Animals do not need to defend their actions or explain anything. They are animals and do not have free will. They are slaves to their instinct to survive and reproduce.

Humans are not slaves to any instinct or God. We are free to ignore Gods guidence and we are free to ignore our instinct to survive and reproduce.

You may think you can act against God's will but how can you be sure that you aren't doing exactly what he really intended for you to do ?

 

[tonystewart1]

So is that free will ?------describing our actions and motivations in any manner that we wish? Animals certainly aren't free to defend their actions or explain their motivation. If a bird tells me that he flies around because God told him to I guess I would assume he is a slave.

I do what God wants me to becasue I chose that path. I can at anytime refuse to do what He wants me to do.

Animals do not need to defend their actions or explain anything. They are animals and do not have free will. They are slaves to their instinct to survive and reproduce.

Humans are not slaves to any instinct or God. We are free to ignore Gods guidence and we are free to ignore our instinct to survive and reproduce.

You may think you can act against God's will but how can you be sure that you aren't doing exactly what he really intended for you to do ?

Right now I am doing what he intended for me to do. I live my life serving him and giving him praise. It say so right in the bible that is what he wants us to do. I could go out right now get me a whore and some crack and do the opposite of what he wants me to do. I could just start taking his name in vain and killing people.

Its up to me.

 

[Lokiate]

An alien lands on Earth and says "Why do humans do what they do?"

What is the answer?

Killing him to dissect his body, and reverse engineer his spacecraft because we're violent animals.

 

[emilynghiem]

Doesn't our ego make us think we know good from evil ? and what appears to be good for the moment can turn out to be bad in the long run. And ultimately does anything matter anyway ?

Hi DD thanks for your answer, you win the award for shortest explanation:
"ego"

And yes I do think this is related to the gaining of knowledge/self-awareness
but it is debatable if people had this capacity BEFORE biting into more knowledge than we could manage, or if it was a RESULT of that little knowledge becoming a dangerous thing. I think if humans are to be held liable for right and wrong it would have to be for choices we make AFTER we have such knowledge. I truly believe most wrong is out of "fear" of something which indicates a lack of understanding; so if this is corrected, and the fear is overcome, then so is the wrongful word thought or action. By the very nature of knowing enough to become responsible for choices, the matter is resolved anyway! So much of the Judgment process is actually correction; by the time we understand something enough to discern what went wrong, we can correct it in the process or as a result, so why blame?

Other runners-up I asked said
* self
* manna (the Buddhist term for the part of the human conscience that can act out of ego or greed or other selfish or evil desires that animals don't have that respond out of pure instinct nature or emotions but without that added inclination that humans have)

Two people answered
* regret
* guilt

And one of my best friends said this:
* people have the abstract ability to understand "philosophical concepts"
* though we are also animals, we are the only animal on the planet with the ability and responsibility to "rise above" our animal nature and to better ourselves
All the other animals are still restrained by their nature

Longer answers
* people have a sense of past and future
* people have a sense of cultural identity where we identify our "selves"
in relation to external environment and society

Again I think the issue with my friend is that we use the terms
"intelligence" and "spirituality" differently, where we are placing the factor that
makes us different under two different terms. I would not judge it in terms of
"intelligence" and he would not judge it in terms of "spirituality" but we both
acknowledge there is some difference.

If he cannot recognize "ego" again I am guessing it could be several reasons:
1. he fears that people who religiously categorize people and animals at different levels
are doing so out of this "ego" and thus he rejects that notion out of respect for animals
2. he has let go of his own sense of ego to the point he sees no difference
3. or he has such an assumed sense of his own ego and his own understanding
he cannot see past that to see he equally has an ego issue as anyone else does

This could be like a narcisstic or socipathic disorder where he truly sees no
difference between people and animals and does not feel he affects other people
in a higher way. Either so sympathetic with animals he treats them as highly as he does people; or such a lack of empathy with people he sees them no differently than animals,
with no other needs that animals do not also have. I'm not sure where he is with that.

But I hope with the language and terms that you and others have offered, I can at least explain to him that it is NOT just an ego trip that people are saying we are different from animals. There IS an inherent difference in our capacity and design that ALLOWS us to make the bigger mistakes he acknowledges, and also to learn the bigger lessons in life.

So it isn't just random evolution or just happening to make these mistakes.
The animals are not on that same path, not designed for that, and learn within their realm but not on the same trajectory as what humans are designed to follow.

The Buddhists teach that animals can move up the spiritual ladder, and humans can move down, but still teach that humans are in a different class level above animals. And then there are higher awareness levels of humans also. I don't think animals can move up to that without going through the level of human experience. So even within the Buddhist system that holds animals and plants in the highest regard, it still shows a distinction that places human incarnation above animals and not by intelligence but by spiritual levels.

 

[emilynghiem]

You may think you can act against God's will but how can you be sure that you aren't doing exactly what he really intended for you to do ?

You check against all possible and available sources.
It is amazing how the human conscience works if we would only listen to ourselves and to each other and hear the common truth that naturally guides us toward "good will" or
God's will.

Usually if you are doing something wrong, either your conscience or your neighbor's will LET YOU KNOW something is off or ain't right. If you are acting out of fear and selfishness instead of love and truth, competition to make someone else wrong instead of cooperation to make all things right, unforgiveness and retribution instead of charity and restorative justice, then you know when you are getting farther into trouble instead of seeking better.

The times we do something wrong, harmful or in conflict/out of balance,
we usually "override or ignore, or discredit" some source telling us not to do that.

So if you resolve any conflicting input, and base all thoughts words actions on what is consensual and in harmony with all people and things around you, that tends to be toward the good for yourself and all equally. You can still make mistakes, but trying to do what is fair and true to all equally, and not putting selfish interests of one person or group above others, tends toward justice.

In general, trying to do things that are helping yourself and others equally for the benefit of all, instead of doing things that help one person at the expense of someone else.