Healthcare should not be a PROFIT driven field

[The Rabbi]

Nobody survives without food. NOBODY.
Do you think everybody involved in the food industry should do it without making a profit?

Here we go again.


How often do you need food?

How often do you need expensive treatment like cancer treatment?

What difference does that make? Both are essential for life. And the discussion was not restricted to expensive cancer treatments but to all medicine, procedures and drugs.
Stop moving the goalposts.

 

[kiwiman127]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

Sure.
However, the answer is NOT giving over control of medical care to the central government.
Washington has been involved for decades. Most of the damage seen to the field of medical are is as a result of government interference and control of certain aspects of medicine, insurance and research.

And I never suggested the the government have complete control.
All countries, except for the US and Turkey negotiate healthcare costs with providers. Those countries have much lower costs. Now that would be a start.
Defensive Medicine has driven up the cost of healthcare, but in states where there was tort reform (California, Texas and Massachusetts), Defensive Medicine procedures barely dropped. Let's face it, Defensive Medicine is a huge contributor to profits.
What to do?

 

[The Rabbi]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

Sure.
However, the answer is NOT giving over control of medical care to the central government.
Washington has been involved for decades. Most of the damage seen to the field of medical are is as a result of government interference and control of certain aspects of medicine, insurance and research.

And I never suggested the the government have complete control.
All countries, except for the US and Turkey negotiate healthcare costs with providers. Those countries have much lower costs. Now that would be a start.
Defensive Medicine has driven up the cost of healthcare, but in states where there was tort reform (California, Texas and Massachusetts), Defensive Medicine procedures barely dropped. Let's face it, Defensive Medicine is a huge contributor to profits.
What to do?

Government does nto negotiate with businesses. Government dictates to businesses. Every other nation has turned their healthcare system into a medical utility, with strict regulations and cost containment measures. The results have been rationed care and second rate performance with little to no developments in drugs and procedures.
No thanks.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If they are necessary for large numbers of people, they are profitable. And we have laws and regulations regarding the testing of new drugs. So many in fact, that quite a few life-saving drugs are kept from the public for decades - if not indefinitely - because of said regulations. So that argument falls completely flat.

Or generally what happens is those people who can afford to pay for medicines get medicines made for them. Those who are poorer, well what's the point?

Saying that I'm not actually opposed to drug companies making drugs for profit either. However I think in the US it's something like 36% is spend by the govt on research while the rest is spent by companies.

 

[kiwiman127]

Sure.
However, the answer is NOT giving over control of medical care to the central government.
Washington has been involved for decades. Most of the damage seen to the field of medical are is as a result of government interference and control of certain aspects of medicine, insurance and research.

And I never suggested the the government have complete control.
All countries, except for the US and Turkey negotiate healthcare costs with providers. Those countries have much lower costs. Now that would be a start.
Defensive Medicine has driven up the cost of healthcare, but in states where there was tort reform (California, Texas and Massachusetts), Defensive Medicine procedures barely dropped. Let's face it, Defensive Medicine is a huge contributor to profits.
What to do?

Government does nto negotiate with businesses. Government dictates to businesses. Every other nation has turned their healthcare system into a medical utility, with strict regulations and cost containment measures. The results have been rationed care and second rate performance with little to no developments in drugs and procedures.
No thanks.

Do you have evidence to back up those statements? Or in other words,,,,,

 

[The Rabbi]

And I never suggested the the government have complete control.
All countries, except for the US and Turkey negotiate healthcare costs with providers. Those countries have much lower costs. Now that would be a start.
Defensive Medicine has driven up the cost of healthcare, but in states where there was tort reform (California, Texas and Massachusetts), Defensive Medicine procedures barely dropped. Let's face it, Defensive Medicine is a huge contributor to profits.
What to do?

Government does nto negotiate with businesses. Government dictates to businesses. Every other nation has turned their healthcare system into a medical utility, with strict regulations and cost containment measures. The results have been rationed care and second rate performance with little to no developments in drugs and procedures.
No thanks.

Do you have evidence to back up those statements? Or in other words,,,,,

Go **** yourself. I'm not researching every country in Europe to find articles where they desperately need to reform their health care because of exploding costs. I've done that plenty. I've posted plenty of links. Go look at the evidence yourself.

The biggest drivers of health care costs are:
1) Poor general health of Americans compared to Europeans due to lifestyle issues
2) Government regulation at all levels
3) Tort system that encourages defensive medicine
4) Over use due to cadillac health care policies that pay starting with the first dollar of expense.

Do something about all of those and you've solved the exploding cost problem.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

NO, its not. that is one of the dumbest posts yet.

Actually it is profit that makes the US healthcare system the most expensive.

MMS: Error

31% of spending goes on administration compared to say 15% for Canada.

So let's say that 16% of what is spend simply goes on the fact that because it's private, it makes unnecessary bureaucracy. Part of that bureaucracy can be seen in the govt simply not trusting private companies to do things they way they should be done, and another part because they get money through insurance companies who don't see to care how much things cost.

I have a figure of $2.26 trillion for healthcare in 2009. This is about 17-18% of GDP. That's about 3% of GDP goes on waste of unnecessary administration if my math is correct.
That is about $0.3 trillion or $300,000,000,000 or $300 billion a year.

I might have my figures wrong here, it seems rather high to me, but then again 3% of GDP I guess is quite high.

US health insurers reap record profits in 2009 - World Socialist Web Site

19 February 2010

"US health insurers reap record profits in 2009"

"The five firms reported $12.2 billion in profits last year, an increase of $4.4 billion, or 56 percent, over 2008. At the same time, 2.7 million Americans who had been enrolled in private health plans the year before lost their coverage."

Okay, the profits made my these five firms, considering there are maybe more than 1,000 insurers, is tiny compared to the money spent of wasting away with admin.

So we've got $312 billion being wasted.

Fortune 500 2012: Industry: Health Care: Insurance and Managed Care

This one, with the top 10 companies on the fortune 500, has profits at $13,751,000,000 or $13 billion.

However, profits aren't just the only thing. Revenue is important here too. What they're spending that is completely unnecessary in getting the job done.

This is $301,806,000,000 or $301 billion, and that's just the top 10 companies in the Fortune 500.

That's a waste of $601 billion, or 6% of GDP, or about 30% of healthcare spending.

Then you have the corruption that I would find it hard to put numbers on. The over spending on drugs, the over spending on hospital beds, the over spending on nonsense.


The price of excess: Identifying waste in healthcare spending: PwC US

"Our research found that wasteful spending in the health system has been calculated at up to $1.2 trillion of the $2.2 trillion spent in the United States, more than half of all health spending. "

This page suggests that more than 50% goes on wasteful spending. It's hard to see how it doesn't seeing as I've only looked at 2 areas and got up to 6% of GDP.

Manoj Jain, MD MPH: Doctors Can Eliminate Waste From Health Care

"An estimated 30 percent of health care spending -- amounting to $750 billion a year -- is wasted, according to a recent report by the Institute of Medicine."

Well, I've reached that without getting very far. This is the medical guys saying it's happening, and they're probably being modest.

Here's an example:

"In a private conversation, a cardiologist tells me about his partners -- "loose guns" he calls them. "At the hint of chest pain they will do a cardiac cath and this makes everyone happy," he says. The patient feels good that something was done, the doctor gains certainty of his presumptive diagnosis and the hospital makes money. While it may seem like a win-win-win, in fact, we all lose as the health care expenditure tops $2 trillion siphoning funds from education, housing and business innovation."

So, the US spends double what the UK spends per capita. And actually probably that increase in costs goes on waste, not on better healthcare.

 

[alan1]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

As far as a general cost of healthcare to the general population, part of the reason healthcare costs in the US (as a combined cost for the general population) is so high is because over two thirds of Americans are overweight and more than a third are considered obese. Fat people cost more to take care of when it comes to healthcare.
Insurance companies have no problem charging higher premiums for smokers (a known health risk), so why don't they charge higher premiums for fat people (a known health risk)? I ask that question rhetorically, because I already know the answer. It is because smokers are a minority and fat-asses are a majority. It is a perfect example of the majority imposing its will upon the minority and ******* them over.

 

[kiwiman127]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

As far as a general cost of healthcare to the general population, part of the reason healthcare costs in the US (as a combined cost for the general population) is so high is because over two thirds of Americans are overweight and more than a third are considered obese. Fat people cost more to take care of when it comes to healthcare.
Insurance companies have no problem charging higher premiums for smokers (a known health risk), so why don't they charge higher premiums for fat people (a known health risk)? I ask that question rhetorically, because I already know the answer. It is because smokers are a minority and fat-asses are a majority. It is a perfect example of the majority imposing its will upon the minority and ******* them over.

I could agree with your post to a point.
But it seems like every time the FDA wants to do something about the labeling or Michelle O has some suggestions for cutting back on fatty diets, some people squak. I can't count the threads that cried and complained about that! I know insurance companies also push wellness programs for their policy holders.
Getting back to tort reform, three states have initiated tort reform and saw very little changes in defensive medicine. So I guess the way to go is not hold doctors/hospitals/clinics responsible for anything despite over 400,000 preventable deaths in hospitals annually. * *
http://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-news-on-preventable-deaths-in-hospitals/

One proposal I came across is the elimination malpractice lawsuits altogether.
=====================================
"The Patients’ Compensation System, now under consideration in the Georgia and Florida legislatures, would eliminate the possibility of any physician or hospital ever being sued again. It would repeal our broken medical tort system, replacing it with a no-blame, administrative system which allows a panel of experts to hear medical claims in the event that a patient has been harmed.
Patients’ claims would be heard more quickly and they would be compensated in a manner similar to our current legal system. The system would be funded with current medical liability premiums and would not require a tax increase or use taxpayer dollars to administer. Most importantly, doctors could concentrate on practicing medicine without the fear of being sued, thus eliminating the need to order unnecessary tests."
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
=========================================

The only problem I have with that is it appears to eliminate the doctor's personal and professional responsibility.

Here is another interesting article:
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It - Forbes

The bottom line is that the American healthcare system need some serious reform. The status quo is dragging down the American economy, families, individuals and companies with it's high cost.

 

[kiwiman127]

Government does nto negotiate with businesses. Government dictates to businesses. Every other nation has turned their healthcare system into a medical utility, with strict regulations and cost containment measures. The results have been rationed care and second rate performance with little to no developments in drugs and procedures.
No thanks.

Do you have evidence to back up those statements? Or in other words,,,,,

Go **** yourself. I'm not researching every country in Europe to find articles where they desperately need to reform their health care because of exploding costs. I've done that plenty. I've posted plenty of links. Go look at the evidence yourself.

The biggest drivers of health care costs are:
1) Poor general health of Americans compared to Europeans due to lifestyle issues
2) Government regulation at all levels
3) Tort system that encourages defensive medicine
4) Over use due to cadillac health care policies that pay starting with the first dollar of expense.

Do something about all of those and you've solved the exploding cost problem.

"Go **** yourself"
Hey Rabbi, do you think you could ever stop with your consistent flaming language? You made some statements and refuse to back them up with anything close to facts and then you get pissed because someone asks for proof.

 

[frigidweirdo]

"Go **** yourself"
Hey Rabbi, do you think you could ever stop with your consistent flaming language? You made some statements and refuse to back them up with anything close to facts and then you get pissed because someone asks for proof.

He's one of those typical people who go on message boards who will never, ever back themselves up, resort to swearing all the time, insulting is the way forwards, and they actually expect to be right all the time. I don't really know why they bother, but I guess it's an anger management sort of thing.

Luckily he's on my ignore list and has been since about day 2 on this board. So he can get rid of all his anger my way if he likes, because I won't actually see it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you have evidence to back up those statements? Or in other words,,,,,

Go **** yourself. I'm not researching every country in Europe to find articles where they desperately need to reform their health care because of exploding costs. I've done that plenty. I've posted plenty of links. Go look at the evidence yourself.

The biggest drivers of health care costs are:
1) Poor general health of Americans compared to Europeans due to lifestyle issues
2) Government regulation at all levels
3) Tort system that encourages defensive medicine
4) Over use due to cadillac health care policies that pay starting with the first dollar of expense.

Do something about all of those and you've solved the exploding cost problem.

"Go **** yourself"
Hey Rabbi, do you think you could ever stop with your consistent flaming language? You made some statements and refuse to back them up with anything close to facts and then you get pissed because someone asks for proof.

I posted the proof many many times in numerous threads. The search feature is your friend.
You conveniently ignore the rest of the post, which shows you are a babbling fool on this topic. Why dont you post a graphic so I can demonstrate yet again you dont know how to read one?

 

[Listening]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

NO, its not. that is one of the dumbest posts yet.

Actually it is profit that makes the US healthcare system the most expensive.

MMS: Error

31% of spending goes on administration compared to say 15% for Canada.

So let's say that 16% of what is spend simply goes on the fact that because it's private, it makes unnecessary bureaucracy. Part of that bureaucracy can be seen in the govt simply not trusting private companies to do things they way they should be done, and another part because they get money through insurance companies who don't see to care how much things cost.

I have a figure of $2.26 trillion for healthcare in 2009. This is about 17-18% of GDP. That's about 3% of GDP goes on waste of unnecessary administration if my math is correct.
That is about $0.3 trillion or $300,000,000,000 or $300 billion a year.

I might have my figures wrong here, it seems rather high to me, but then again 3% of GDP I guess is quite high.

US health insurers reap record profits in 2009 - World Socialist Web Site

19 February 2010

"US health insurers reap record profits in 2009"

"The five firms reported $12.2 billion in profits last year, an increase of $4.4 billion, or 56 percent, over 2008. At the same time, 2.7 million Americans who had been enrolled in private health plans the year before lost their coverage."

Okay, the profits made my these five firms, considering there are maybe more than 1,000 insurers, is tiny compared to the money spent of wasting away with admin.

So we've got $312 billion being wasted.

Fortune 500 2012: Industry: Health Care: Insurance and Managed Care

This one, with the top 10 companies on the fortune 500, has profits at $13,751,000,000 or $13 billion.

However, profits aren't just the only thing. Revenue is important here too. What they're spending that is completely unnecessary in getting the job done.

This is $301,806,000,000 or $301 billion, and that's just the top 10 companies in the Fortune 500.

That's a waste of $601 billion, or 6% of GDP, or about 30% of healthcare spending.

Then you have the corruption that I would find it hard to put numbers on. The over spending on drugs, the over spending on hospital beds, the over spending on nonsense.


The price of excess: Identifying waste in healthcare spending: PwC US

"Our research found that wasteful spending in the health system has been calculated at up to $1.2 trillion of the $2.2 trillion spent in the United States, more than half of all health spending. "

This page suggests that more than 50% goes on wasteful spending. It's hard to see how it doesn't seeing as I've only looked at 2 areas and got up to 6% of GDP.

Manoj Jain, MD MPH: Doctors Can Eliminate Waste From Health Care

"An estimated 30 percent of health care spending -- amounting to $750 billion a year -- is wasted, according to a recent report by the Institute of Medicine."

Well, I've reached that without getting very far. This is the medical guys saying it's happening, and they're probably being modest.

Here's an example:

"In a private conversation, a cardiologist tells me about his partners -- "loose guns" he calls them. "At the hint of chest pain they will do a cardiac cath and this makes everyone happy," he says. The patient feels good that something was done, the doctor gains certainty of his presumptive diagnosis and the hospital makes money. While it may seem like a win-win-win, in fact, we all lose as the health care expenditure tops $2 trillion siphoning funds from education, housing and business innovation."

So, the US spends double what the UK spends per capita. And actually probably that increase in costs goes on waste, not on better healthcare.

Could you please show where that article addresses profit. I can't find it.

Additionally, I keep seeing the 30% wasted money assertion (and I believe it).

What I find hard to understand is how anyone can think that goes on just on it's own. No company survives with that kind of waste (well, except government contractors). So what is driving it. As near as I can tell it is the cost of a screwed up insurance and medicla regulations regiment.

Regulations = Government.

If there were a way for someone to do it for less...economics tells you that is the case that they would.

I have never heard profit numbers on healthcare that showed anything but thin margins. I'd be curious to see the data you are referencing.

 

[alan1]

So despite that economist warn that the cost of healthcare is a threat to our economy, people favor keeping the status quo? Profits are what is contributing to the fact the US easily has the most expensive healthcare in the world. Unbridled rising costs are already hurting this country's economy and it going to get much worse.
Keeping the status quo is an invitation to the furthering decline of the US. This runaway train has to be stopped before it's too late.

As far as a general cost of healthcare to the general population, part of the reason healthcare costs in the US (as a combined cost for the general population) is so high is because over two thirds of Americans are overweight and more than a third are considered obese. Fat people cost more to take care of when it comes to healthcare.
Insurance companies have no problem charging higher premiums for smokers (a known health risk), so why don't they charge higher premiums for fat people (a known health risk)? I ask that question rhetorically, because I already know the answer. It is because smokers are a minority and fat-asses are a majority. It is a perfect example of the majority imposing its will upon the minority and ******* them over.

I could agree with your post to a point.
But it seems like every time the FDA wants to do something about the labeling or Michelle O has some suggestions for cutting back on fatty diets, some people squak. I can't count the threads that cried and complained about that! I know insurance companies also push wellness programs for their policy holders.
Getting back to tort reform, three states have initiated tort reform and saw very little changes in defensive medicine. So I guess the way to go is not hold doctors/hospitals/clinics responsible for anything despite over 400,000 preventable deaths in hospitals annually. * *
Stunning News On Preventable Deaths In Hospitals - Forbes

One proposal I came across is the elimination malpractice lawsuits altogether.
=====================================
"The Patients’ Compensation System, now under consideration in the Georgia and Florida legislatures, would eliminate the possibility of any physician or hospital ever being sued again. It would repeal our broken medical tort system, replacing it with a no-blame, administrative system which allows a panel of experts to hear medical claims in the event that a patient has been harmed.
Patients’ claims would be heard more quickly and they would be compensated in a manner similar to our current legal system. The system would be funded with current medical liability premiums and would not require a tax increase or use taxpayer dollars to administer. Most importantly, doctors could concentrate on practicing medicine without the fear of being sued, thus eliminating the need to order unnecessary tests."
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
=========================================

The only problem I have with that is it appears to eliminate the doctor's personal and professional responsibility.

Here is another interesting article:
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It - Forbes

The bottom line is that the American healthcare system need some serious reform. The status quo is dragging down the American economy, families, individuals and companies with it's high cost.

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the ACA?

 

[kiwiman127]

As far as a general cost of healthcare to the general population, part of the reason healthcare costs in the US (as a combined cost for the general population) is so high is because over two thirds of Americans are overweight and more than a third are considered obese. Fat people cost more to take care of when it comes to healthcare.
Insurance companies have no problem charging higher premiums for smokers (a known health risk), so why don't they charge higher premiums for fat people (a known health risk)? I ask that question rhetorically, because I already know the answer. It is because smokers are a minority and fat-asses are a majority. It is a perfect example of the majority imposing its will upon the minority and ******* them over.

I could agree with your post to a point.
But it seems like every time the FDA wants to do something about the labeling or Michelle O has some suggestions for cutting back on fatty diets, some people squak. I can't count the threads that cried and complained about that! I know insurance companies also push wellness programs for their policy holders.
Getting back to tort reform, three states have initiated tort reform and saw very little changes in defensive medicine. So I guess the way to go is not hold doctors/hospitals/clinics responsible for anything despite over 400,000 preventable deaths in hospitals annually. * *
Stunning News On Preventable Deaths In Hospitals - Forbes

One proposal I came across is the elimination malpractice lawsuits altogether.
=====================================
"The Patients’ Compensation System, now under consideration in the Georgia and Florida legislatures, would eliminate the possibility of any physician or hospital ever being sued again. It would repeal our broken medical tort system, replacing it with a no-blame, administrative system which allows a panel of experts to hear medical claims in the event that a patient has been harmed.
Patients’ claims would be heard more quickly and they would be compensated in a manner similar to our current legal system. The system would be funded with current medical liability premiums and would not require a tax increase or use taxpayer dollars to administer. Most importantly, doctors could concentrate on practicing medicine without the fear of being sued, thus eliminating the need to order unnecessary tests."
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
=========================================

The only problem I have with that is it appears to eliminate the doctor's personal and professional responsibility.

Here is another interesting article:
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It - Forbes

The bottom line is that the American healthcare system need some serious reform. The status quo is dragging down the American economy, families, individuals and companies with it's high cost.

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the ACA?

No.
The idea was noble but it turned into a huge mess. It was armatures trying to solve a complex situation. Even a bi-partisan approach by politicians is isn't the answer. The best approach would be experts who aren't political or industry whores, to get together and work on reform from within.

 

[The Rabbi]

I could agree with your post to a point.
But it seems like every time the FDA wants to do something about the labeling or Michelle O has some suggestions for cutting back on fatty diets, some people squak. I can't count the threads that cried and complained about that! I know insurance companies also push wellness programs for their policy holders.
Getting back to tort reform, three states have initiated tort reform and saw very little changes in defensive medicine. So I guess the way to go is not hold doctors/hospitals/clinics responsible for anything despite over 400,000 preventable deaths in hospitals annually. * *
Stunning News On Preventable Deaths In Hospitals - Forbes

One proposal I came across is the elimination malpractice lawsuits altogether.
=====================================
"The Patients’ Compensation System, now under consideration in the Georgia and Florida legislatures, would eliminate the possibility of any physician or hospital ever being sued again. It would repeal our broken medical tort system, replacing it with a no-blame, administrative system which allows a panel of experts to hear medical claims in the event that a patient has been harmed.
Patients’ claims would be heard more quickly and they would be compensated in a manner similar to our current legal system. The system would be funded with current medical liability premiums and would not require a tax increase or use taxpayer dollars to administer. Most importantly, doctors could concentrate on practicing medicine without the fear of being sued, thus eliminating the need to order unnecessary tests."
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
=========================================

The only problem I have with that is it appears to eliminate the doctor's personal and professional responsibility.

Here is another interesting article:
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It
The High Cost Of American Health Care: You Asked For It - Forbes

The bottom line is that the American healthcare system need some serious reform. The status quo is dragging down the American economy, families, individuals and companies with it's high cost.

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the ACA?

No.
The idea was noble but it turned into a huge mess. It was armatures trying to solve a complex situation. Even a bi-partisan approach by politicians is isn't the answer. The best approach would be experts who aren't political or industry whores, to get together and work on reform from within.

How old are you again?
So the idea is that the very people who produced this crap are somehow going to do better next time? Keep in mind, Congress still has to vote on a bill. Every special interest will be lined up to get their share, on both sides. The pols will demagog the issue yet again. The Democrats will never admit that Obamacare is a failure.
Your idea of turning over control of 1/6th of the economy to unelected unaccountable geniuses is horrifying. Right out of Hitler's Third Reich.

 

[kiwiman127]

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the ACA?

No.
The idea was noble but it turned into a huge mess. It was armatures trying to solve a complex situation. Even a bi-partisan approach by politicians is isn't the answer. The best approach would be experts who aren't political or industry whores, to get together and work on reform from within.

How old are you again?
So the idea is that the very people who produced this crap are somehow going to do better next time? Keep in mind, Congress still has to vote on a bill. Every special interest will be lined up to get their share, on both sides. The pols will demagog the issue yet again. The Democrats will never admit that Obamacare is a failure.
Your idea of turning over control of 1/6th of the economy to unelected unaccountable geniuses is horrifying. Right out of Hitler's Third Reich.

Right. Let's have a bunch of folks who are clueless put together a plan to reverse a disaster. What a great idea!
Would you have an interior designer try to fix your car? No, you have an auto mechanic fix your car because they know what they are doing and know the workings of the car.
Why have a bunch of stooges, when one can have people that know the workings of our healthcare system and have a clue how to fix it?
How many people would be comfortable with your idea and how many with my idea?

 

[The Rabbi]

No.
The idea was noble but it turned into a huge mess. It was armatures trying to solve a complex situation. Even a bi-partisan approach by politicians is isn't the answer. The best approach would be experts who aren't political or industry whores, to get together and work on reform from within.

How old are you again?
So the idea is that the very people who produced this crap are somehow going to do better next time? Keep in mind, Congress still has to vote on a bill. Every special interest will be lined up to get their share, on both sides. The pols will demagog the issue yet again. The Democrats will never admit that Obamacare is a failure.
Your idea of turning over control of 1/6th of the economy to unelected unaccountable geniuses is horrifying. Right out of Hitler's Third Reich.

Right. Let's have a bunch of folks who are clueless put together a plan to reverse a disaster. What a great idea!
Would you have an interior designer try to fix your car? No, you have an auto mechanic fix your car because they know what they are doing and know the workings of the car.
Why have a bunch of stooges, when one can have people that know the workings of our healthcare system and have a clue how to fix it?
How many people would be comfortable with your idea and how many with my idea?

No, you don't get it. I'm not advocating Congress fix it. I'm pointing out Congress will have to pass the legislation. And there is no way they are giving up power on this. Too much at stake.
Your idea is unicorn farts and fairy dust.

 

[deltex1]

If no profit in healthcare...logic would say no profit in housing, transportation, food, clothing......

 

[kiwiman127]

How old are you again?
So the idea is that the very people who produced this crap are somehow going to do better next time? Keep in mind, Congress still has to vote on a bill. Every special interest will be lined up to get their share, on both sides. The pols will demagog the issue yet again. The Democrats will never admit that Obamacare is a failure.
Your idea of turning over control of 1/6th of the economy to unelected unaccountable geniuses is horrifying. Right out of Hitler's Third Reich.

Right. Let's have a bunch of folks who are clueless put together a plan to reverse a disaster. What a great idea!
Would you have an interior designer try to fix your car? No, you have an auto mechanic fix your car because they know what they are doing and know the workings of the car.
Why have a bunch of stooges, when one can have people that know the workings of our healthcare system and have a clue how to fix it?
How many people would be comfortable with your idea and how many with my idea?

No, you don't get it. I'm not advocating Congress fix it. I'm pointing out Congress will have to pass the legislation. And there is no way they are giving up power on this. Too much at stake.
Your idea is unicorn farts and fairy dust.