Haditha the new My Lai?

[Annie]

As was said many pages ago by several of us, IF the Marines who are accused of committing war crimes are found guilty, they shoul dswing from the highest yardarm. I have no sympathy for them. The rules and the law is constantly drilled into their heads. I'm not up on it for no reason. Neither are CSM or PEGWINN. It's drummed into our heads.

At teh same token, it is despicable yet typical of the left to convict them in the media prior to a trial.

But so many are so quick to find them guilty, without hearing from the defense. Oh yeah, once charges are brought, whenever that is.

 

[Gunny]

But so many are so quick to find them guilty, without hearing from the defense. Oh yeah, once charges are brought, whenever that is.

By the time actual charges are brought, the media will have convinced whoever they have under mindcontrol -- which would be the entire left and some of the right -- of their guilt. I reference Abu Ghraib and/or GTMO as proof. They smell blood and they will stir their mindless, ranting constituents into a frenzy by the time any decision is made.

And as someone else has already said, if no charges are brought or they are found not guilty, the left's war cry will be, "the fix is in!"

Innocent or guilty, the politicizing of this crap is just THAT ...CRAP.

 

[Annie]

By the time actual charges are brought, the media will have convinced whoever they have under mindcontrol -- which would be the entire left and some of the right -- of their guilt. I reference Abu Ghraib and/or GTMO as proof. They smell blood and they will stir their mindless, ranting constituents into a frenzy by the time any decision is made.

And as someone else has already said, if no charges are brought or they are found not guilty, the left's war cry will be, "the fix is in!"

Innocent or guilty, the politicizing of this crap is just THAT ...CRAP.

I thought RWA was in charge of that? I too fear the wrongful shit hitting wall of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. Sometimes it seems hopeless.

Then I remember the sacrifices and join the multitude that 'carry on.'

 

[manu1959]

you know .... we should not do things like this ..... but at the end of the day ..... fuck em ..... you damn well know if they could figure out how to kill everyone in the western world they would .....

 

[Dr Grump]

a) To be recognized as such, the armed forces of a Party to a conflict must be organized and placed under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or other authority not recognized by the adverse Party. In addition, these armed forces must be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, enforces compliance with the rules of internationallaw applicable in armed conflicts. In particular, this compliance requires combatants to distinguish themselves from civilians, except in particular circumstances (see point c below) by a uniform or other distinctive sign, visible and recognizable at a distance, while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Violation by a combatant of the rules applicable in armed conflict is punishable but if this combatant at least carries his arms openly during the engagement, he is not deprived of his right to the status of prisoner of war in case of capture. If the Party to which these armed forces belong omits or deliberately refuses to enforce compliance with these rules, it can result in all members of these forces losing their status of combatant and prisoner of war. (1)

FURTHER DOWN IN THE SAME DOCUMENT

3. Only persons acting under false pretences or in a deliberately clandestine manner can be considered as spies. Thus a member of the armed forces in uniform is not a spy even if he conceals himself to gather information.

We are talking about spies, right? Do you think the Taliban were acting in a clandestine manner or under false pretences? No argument re the uniform, I was just trying to make a point re the turbans. Anyway, I doubt the Taliban recognised the GC, so live and let live in that regard...

 

[Dr Grump]

Semantics. The Taliban can claim whatever they wish. All the Nazis at Nuremberg plead "not guilty," too. Technically speaking, that definition CAN be applied to the Taliban, bathtowels on their heads or no.

They are a backwards-assed, 7th century people who believe in using terror to attain their goals; whether, local or abroad. I don't care if they are held in GTMO until they turn to dust. I don't care if they promise to fly them home and on that flight have some people "fall overboard."

And I REALLY don't care if their precious little Holy Book is dunked in the toilet. We treat them all nice and swell, but why is it these terrorist organizations have no prisoners? Because they can't control their bloodlust long enough, that's why.

In case you haven't noticed, my give-a-shitter's broken where these scumsucking bottom-feeders are concerned.

I feel the same way...as long as they are proved to be terrorists or members of the Taliban. It's the ones that aren't that I have concerns about and a few have already been let go. We'll see how it pans out I guess...

 

[dilloduck]

you know .... we should not do things like this ..... but at the end of the day ..... fuck em ..... you damn well know if they could figure out how to kill everyone in the western world they would .....

Agreed--admit the mistake if there is one and get back to killing the enemy.
Bad shit happens in war--lets not kid ourselves. They can quit anytime they are ready to live like humans and let Iraq be.

 

[Diuretic]

Be like us, leave your citizens to rot.

 

[pegwinn]

We are talking about spies, right? Do you think the Taliban were acting in a clandestine manner or under false pretences? No argument re the uniform, I was just trying to make a point re the turbans. Anyway, I doubt the Taliban recognised the GC, so live and let live in that regard...

You missed the point. By not wearing the uniform and acting in a hostile manner, they fall into the same category as spies or saboteurs. Either can be summarily executed. But, Americans are generally better than that. As to the Taliban not recognizing the GC, can you name a terrorist org that does?

 

[pegwinn]

Not that I think he'll respond (unless it's a form letter), but I included my phone number. Email is a glorious thing.

Congressman Murtha,

One of the tenets of retiring is that we are allowed to relax, grow our hair, and speak our mind. Obviously we both have mastered those three skills.

Regarding your comments on the alleged incident at Haditha. Sir, your comments were completely over the top. When on active duty, I would bet you lunch at the SNCO club that you would not have tolerated such inflammatory commentary towards any of your Marines without benefit of a guilty verdict at a General Court Martial. So I have to remind you of those leadership traits and principles that you obviously didn’t apply when talking about your fellow Marines. I need to remind you that you are also failing to set an example for your fellow members of Congress. I need to remind you that in your capacity as an elected representative you have poisoned the investigation. If by some chance they are exonerated, are you going to apologize publicly to the young Marines? And if you were to apologize, is there any hope that your staff will ensure the apology gets the same press as your “in cold blood” declaration?

To put a point to it Colonel, you may’ve been speaking as a congressman but the public took your words as a Marine. Semper Fidelis doesn’t mean we are faithful to atrocities. If these Marines are found guilty then I will applaud the fact that Marines take care of their own, for good or ill. Semper Fidelis means you should be faithful to the concept of innocent until definitively proven guilty.

Perhaps a visit to the field, eating MRE’s, and sleeping in a GP or CP tent might remind you of those core values that you may’ve let slip. It’s the only reason I can imaging you would say what you did, considering your background and record.

MSgt Phillip E. Gwinn USMC (ret)
Lubbock, TX

 

[nosarcasm]

you take that innocent till convicted too far.

The honor of any military organization can only be maintained by someone speaking up when he perceives injustice. Coverups happened because
of people like you. Murtha, or anyone can voice their opinion. It does not convict any specific soldier per se. Accusations should not be thrown out lightly either but that is not the problem in this case.



You look like a hypocrit. I am sure Clinton did not get the same inncoent till convicted approach.

 

[nt250]

you take that innocent till convicted too far.

The honor of any military organization can only be maintained by someone speaking up when he perceives injustice. Coverups happened because
of people like you. Murtha, or anyone can voice their opinion. It does not convict any specific soldier per se. Accusations should not be thrown out lightly either but that is not the problem in this case.



You look like a hypocrit. I am sure Clinton did not get the same inncoent till convicted approach.

I disagree.

Our soldiers are over there now. Care should be taken when words can kill. And the Iraqi's have proven time and time again that it doesn't take much for them to kill each other. Murtha is giving them just the justification they need to kill one of our GI's just on sight. Hell, they've already proven they need no justification. These people kill children without a thought.

Murtha is a disgrace. He should shut his mouth and stop accusing our soldiers of cold blooded murder.

Where was he when the Iraqi "insurgents" gunned down children for taking candy from American GI's? Twice now. I don't remember him going on Meet The Press then.

 

[nosarcasm]

I disagree.

Our soldiers are over there now. Care should be taken when words can kill. And the Iraqi's have proven time and time again that it doesn't take much for them to kill each other. Murtha is giving them just the justification they need to kill one of our GI's just on sight. Hell, they've already proven they need no justification. These people kill children without a thought.

Murtha is a disgrace. He should shut his mouth and stop accusing our soldiers of cold blooded murder.

Where was he when the Iraqi "insurgents" gunned down children for taking candy from American GI's? Twice now. I don't remember him going on Meet The Press then.

For me for an army it is about like that. Manslaughter is legal, murder is not.

If you kill civilians by accident or because you are not sure if they are the enemy. Well thats the dirty reality of war.

If you go in to punish civilians because you cant find any suitable targets in the area it becomes murder. Any armed forces has to prosecute that to prevent soldiers becoming vigilantes. You "hang" a few to keep discipline focus on the enemy.

Murtha called it murder to put a spotlight on the invetigation that had some problems with coverups it seems.

If he is wrong he is embaressed. Nobody gets convicted just because he assume one thing or another. But it keeps that investigation in the public spotlight so irregularities would come up more likely.

The Iraqis have convicted the soldiers long ago when the incident happened.
Like you said the insurgents dont need a reason. On the other hand cant we just quit our justice system just because the results may upset the enemy.

I dont think the insurgents can be compared to the US military. They are totally disgraced. Murdering children, women, bombing public places filled with civilans. They are terrorists that are too cowardly and weak to hit military targets.

The US even at war tries to keep some rules in effect, that would be the protection of civilians. If the story is true , punishment is needed. If it is false the US can point that out. Some other warcrime story was recently investigated and turned out nothing happened. So an investigation or calling for an investigation can hardly be the wrong thing to do in my book. In the worst case we waist money on it, but it helps the reputation of the Armed Forces.

 

[nt250]

For me for an army it is about like that. Manslaughter is legal, murder is not.

If it is false the US can point that out. Some other warcrime story was recently investigated and turned out nothing happened. So an investigation or calling for an investigation can hardly be the wrong thing to do in my book. In the worst case we waist money on it, but it helps the reputation of the Armed Forces.

Oh, please. Do you have any idea how many false stories about atrocities in Vietnam are still being repeated as if the were true?

Atrocities were committed in Vietnam. Nobody has ever claimed otherwise. But they were rare. Over two million people served in the military in Vietnam, so it's not surprising that some of them did things they shouldn't have done. But it was very rare. For some reason, many people got off on spreading the lies are are accepted as truth today.

One story I read during the last election was from a Vietnam veteran who posted that on his first day in Vietnam he heard the story about this unit that went into a village and killed everything in sight. Men, women, children, babies, cows, dogs. Anything that moved, they killed it. He'd never do that, he thought.

About a month later, he was sitting on a rock outside a mess tent eating his lunch when he overheard a group of soldiers talking about the same incident. Only this time, it was HIS unit that did it. He knew then that a lot of the stories he heard about what went on in Vietnam weren't true.

Many of the stories about Vietnam are not true. There has never been a proven case of any returning American GI being spit on. Not one. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans went on and lived full, productive, successful lives. But the myth of the crazed PTSD Vietnam vet lives on.

It does matter what Murtha says, especially because he's a former Marine himself. He has put all of our troops in danger by his words. He should be ashamed of himself.

 

[Gunny]

you take that innocent till convicted too far.

The honor of any military organization can only be maintained by someone speaking up when he perceives injustice. Coverups happened because
of people like you. Murtha, or anyone can voice their opinion. It does not convict any specific soldier per se. Accusations should not be thrown out lightly either but that is not the problem in this case.



You look like a hypocrit. I am sure Clinton did not get the same inncoent till convicted approach.

You assume much, as usual. I don't recall seeing PEGWINN's opinion on Clinton being posted; yet, you choose to call him a hypocrite for it. Bad form.

Secondly, the rules for reporting an unlawful order are clearcut, and EVERY Marine has it drummed into his head. The "honor" as you call it, is following the rules as prescribed.

A lloudmouthed, left-wing sensationalist spreading his version of events through the media is hardly honorable, nor is it in keeping with his responsibility as an official of the United States government.

Any hope for a clean investigation and any semblance of justice got tossed out the window the second the BS version of events hit the press.

And lastly, handling criminal matters in-house is NOT covering them up. It's called military law, and you and your politically-biased, civilian nose don't belong in it. Simple enough?

 

[Gunny]

Oh, please. Do you have any idea how many false stories about atrocities in Vietnam are still being repeated as if the were true?

Atrocities were committed in Vietnam. Nobody has ever claimed otherwise. But they were rare. Over two million people served in the military in Vietnam, so it's not surprising that some of them did things they shouldn't have done. But it was very rare. For some reason, many people got off on spreading the lies are are accepted as truth today.

One story I read during the last election was from a Vietnam veteran who posted that on his first day in Vietnam he heard the story about this unit that went into a village and killed everything in sight. Men, women, children, babies, cows, dogs. Anything that moved, they killed it. He'd never do that, he thought.

About a month later, he was sitting on a rock outside a mess tent eating his lunch when he overheard a group of soldiers talking about the same incident. Only this time, it was HIS unit that did it. He knew then that a lot of the stories he heard about what went on in Vietnam weren't true.

Many of the stories about Vietnam are not true. There has never been a proven case of any returning American GI being spit on. Not one. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans went on and lived full, productive, successful lives. But the myth of the crazed PTSD Vietnam vet lives on.

It does matter what Murtha says, especially because he's a former Marine himself. He has put all of our troops in danger by his words. He should be ashamed of himself.

Good luck convincing this guy. He lives to hear and tell the BS stories. Note, he ignored every point MSgt Gwinn and myself made concerning military law and called him a hypocrite based on an assumption.

There isn't one pos on this board concerning this event made by myself, the MSgt, or CSM where we haven't said IF they are found guilty they should swing. Nosarcasm acts as if that hasn't been said.

 

[nt250]

Good luck convincing this guy. He lives to hear and tell the BS stories. Note, he ignored every point MSgt Gwinn and myself made concerning military law and called him a hypocrite based on an assumption.

There isn't one pos on this board concerning this event made by myself, the MSgt, or CSM where we haven't said IF they are found guilty they should swing. Nosarcasm acts as if that hasn't been said.

Yeah, I know. I'm a message board veteran. I went through all this back during the election on the board I have since been banned from.

Liberals never let the facts get in the way of their arguments.

I'm not a conservative, by the way. Or a George W. Bush supporter. I just hate double standards, and I hate liars, and liberals seem to have a monopoly on both.

They don't care about the truth as long as it fits their agenda.

 

[nosarcasm]

You assume much, as usual. I don't recall seeing PEGWINN's opinion on Clinton being posted; yet, you choose to call him a hypocrite for it. Bad form.

Secondly, the rules for reporting an unlawful order are clearcut, and EVERY Marine has it drummed into his head. The "honor" as you call it, is following the rules as prescribed.

A lloudmouthed, left-wing sensationalist spreading his version of events through the media is hardly honorable, nor is it in keeping with his responsibility as an official of the United States government.

Any hope for a clean investigation and any semblance of justice got tossed out the window the second the BS version of events hit the press.

And lastly, handling criminal matters in-house is NOT covering them up. It's called military law, and you and your politically-biased, civilian nose don't belong in it. Simple enough?

Your claim that any justice is out of the window is ridicilous. Why are the Marines gonna make up evidence to convict them ?

In these threads some that attacked Murtha already voiced that we should not care about the arabs anyway if the story is true.

you call him loudmouth, why is that.

It seems to me you try to stop a discussion about the events with this waiting for convictions or former Marines can't accuse their own bullshit/
You are a hypocrite to me.

 

[Dr Grump]

You missed the point. By not wearing the uniform and acting in a hostile manner, they fall into the same category as spies or saboteurs.

Not according the the definition I posted..

As to the Taliban not recognizing the GC, can you name a terrorist org that does?

The Taliban are not a terrorist organisation as far as I know. They ran a country...badly, and treated people like shit. They deserved what they got.

 

[Annie]

Not according the the definition I posted..

Perhaps I missed something, you used a dictionary definition, Pegg on pg 6, used the more authoratative to topic, Geneva Convention.

The Taliban are not a terrorist organisation as far as I know. They ran a country...badly, and treated people like shit. They deserved what they got.

By supporting Al Queda, they were terroists.