God, religion, Science and a Post-Modern View of Science

[JimBowie1958]

So often people say that science and religion are opposed to each other that it is almost considered a fact of the public domain. And yet were it not for the Judeo-Christian faith, science would never have had the influence on society that it has had in Western culture but now that our society is bleaching itself of all its Judeo-Christain values, science is returning to the mystical view that it had prior to the rise of Judeo-Christianity.

In the ancient world, the Atomist school of thought and the great philosophers like Socrates and Plato were viewed by the larger society as merely one more competing set of opinions that were on an equal level as the other competing world views that held the u niverse to be irrational and not subject to discovery through reason. Just because fire produced heat did not mean that something was going on with atoms necessarily, according to most, but was perhaps the product of fire elemental spirits. Spirits were attributed to almost everything from mountains to rivers to animals to the stars. So any materialistic analysis was at best presumptive if not foolish.

When Christianity was made the official religon of the roman Empire this began to change slowly. In Christianity, the universe is presumed to be rational since the Creator who made it was Himself rational and the universe would therefore reflect that rationality. So the views of the Atomists, Socrates and his disciples and the overall view of the universe as being capable of being expressed in human language became the root assumption in Western society.

Along with that change in world view that placed Reason as a tool alongside revelation for discovering Truth, the contention between the Protestants and Catholics caused an explosion of literacy among Westerners as people sought to be able to read the Bible themselves and deetermine what religion they would embrace, and this literacy made the whole public capable of reading of science as well and coming to understand it well enough that for many science replaced religion altogether as the principle source of Truths about our universe.

But today in our post-Christian, post0Modern society, the public is returning to a black-box view of science. Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions. Lacking this understanding the public is prey to all sorts of charlatans posing as scientists or doctors selling all sorts of snake oil.

Eventually the public will tire of this obedience to the science-priests and stop supporting the scientific exploration of our universe and Reality. Already in this election we have idiots asserting that space exploration and colonizing our moon and the planets of our solar system to be an insane waste of precious resources, and people are no longer alerted by scientific studies that show 'X' to be harmful in any way worse than what we accept on a daily basis anyway. They are becoming inurred to the contributions of science and reason.

The great irony here is that this is all happening just as science is on the cusp of its greatest acheivements and the ushering in of a virtual technological utopia of indefinate lifespans, plentiful resources that obsetes the requirement to labor and puts the knowlege of the universe at the finger-tips of anyone who can afford an occasional connection to the internet.

We need to rebuff this notion that religion, and Christianity in particular, is incompatible with science. Most Christians do NOT believe this to be the case, but that percentage is falling day by day. Science and the rest of society stand to lose the most in a democratic political system from this rebirth of irrational world views.

 

[Truthmatters]

then tell the religious right to stop trashing sceince

 

[JimBowie1958]

then tell the religious right to stop trashing sceince

You demonstrate my point: not all religious people trash science, dude.

In fact the vast majority of Christians and Jews endorse science across the board.

Its mostly only evangelicals and fundamentalists that try to subordinate science to their interpretations of the Bible, and they are but about one fifth of Christianity as a whole.

 

[rdean]

So often people say that science and religion are opposed to each other that it is almost considered a fact of the public domain. And yet were it not for the Judeo-Christian faith, science would never have had the influence on society that it has had in Western culture but now that our society is bleaching itself of all its Judeo-Christain values, science is returning to the mystical view that it had prior to the rise of Judeo-Christianity.

In the ancient world, the Atomist school of thought and the great philosophers like Socrates and Plato were viewed by the larger society as merely one more competing set of opinions that were on an equal level as the other competing world views that held the u niverse to be irrational and not subject to discovery through reason. Just because fire produced heat did not mean that something was going on with atoms necessarily, according to most, but was perhaps the product of fire elemental spirits. Spirits were attributed to almost everything from mountains to rivers to animals to the stars. So any materialistic analysis was at best presumptive if not foolish.

When Christianity was made the official religon of the roman Empire this began to change slowly. In Christianity, the universe is presumed to be rational since the Creator who made it was Himself rational and the universe would therefore reflect that rationality. So the views of the Atomists, Socrates and his disciples and the overall view of the universe as being capable of being expressed in human language became the root assumption in Western society.

Along with that change in world view that placed Reason as a tool alongside revelation for discovering Truth, the contention between the Protestants and Catholics caused an explosion of literacy among Westerners as people sought to be able to read the Bible themselves and deetermine what religion they would embrace, and this literacy made the whole public capable of reading of science as well and coming to understand it well enough that for many science replaced religion altogether as the principle source of Truths about our universe.

But today in our post-Christian, post0Modern society, the public is returning to a black-box view of science. Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions. Lacking this understanding the public is prey to all sorts of charlatans posing as scientists or doctors selling all sorts of snake oil.

Eventually the public will tire of this obedience to the science-priests and stop supporting the scientific exploration of our universe and Reality. Already in this election we have idiots asserting that space exploration and colonizing our moon and the planets of our solar system to be an insane waste of precious resources, and people are no longer alerted by scientific studies that show 'X' to be harmful in any way worse than what we accept on a daily basis anyway. They are becoming inurred to the contributions of science and reason.

The great irony here is that this is all happening just as science is on the cusp of its greatest acheivements and the ushering in of a virtual technological utopia of indefinate lifespans, plentiful resources that obsetes the requirement to labor and puts the knowlege of the universe at the finger-tips of anyone who can afford an occasional connection to the internet.

We need to rebuff this notion that religion, and Christianity in particular, is incompatible with science. Most Christians do NOT believe this to be the case, but that percentage is falling day by day. Science and the rest of society stand to lose the most in a democratic political system from this rebirth of irrational world views.

How does the right even come up with this bullshit. I'm astounded.

 

[Truthmatters]

then tell the religious right to stop trashing sceince

You demonstrate my point: not all religious people trash science, dude.

In fact the vast majority of Christians and Jews endorse science across the board.

Its mostly only evangelicals and fundamentalists that try to subordinate science to their interpretations of the Bible, and they are but about one fifth of Christianity as a whole.

hense the religious "right" part of my sentance.

They deny science so they can retain their historically failed poltical positions.


They see their party as a religion too.

Religions dont need facts they need faith.

Same with the current republican party

 

[del]

So often people say that science and religion are opposed to each other that it is almost considered a fact of the public domain. And yet were it not for the Judeo-Christian faith, science would never have had the influence on society that it has had in Western culture but now that our society is bleaching itself of all its Judeo-Christain values, science is returning to the mystical view that it had prior to the rise of Judeo-Christianity.

In the ancient world, the Atomist school of thought and the great philosophers like Socrates and Plato were viewed by the larger society as merely one more competing set of opinions that were on an equal level as the other competing world views that held the u niverse to be irrational and not subject to discovery through reason. Just because fire produced heat did not mean that something was going on with atoms necessarily, according to most, but was perhaps the product of fire elemental spirits. Spirits were attributed to almost everything from mountains to rivers to animals to the stars. So any materialistic analysis was at best presumptive if not foolish.

When Christianity was made the official religon of the roman Empire this began to change slowly. In Christianity, the universe is presumed to be rational since the Creator who made it was Himself rational and the universe would therefore reflect that rationality. So the views of the Atomists, Socrates and his disciples and the overall view of the universe as being capable of being expressed in human language became the root assumption in Western society.

Along with that change in world view that placed Reason as a tool alongside revelation for discovering Truth, the contention between the Protestants and Catholics caused an explosion of literacy among Westerners as people sought to be able to read the Bible themselves and deetermine what religion they would embrace, and this literacy made the whole public capable of reading of science as well and coming to understand it well enough that for many science replaced religion altogether as the principle source of Truths about our universe.

But today in our post-Christian, post0Modern society, the public is returning to a black-box view of science. Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions. Lacking this understanding the public is prey to all sorts of charlatans posing as scientists or doctors selling all sorts of snake oil.

Eventually the public will tire of this obedience to the science-priests and stop supporting the scientific exploration of our universe and Reality. Already in this election we have idiots asserting that space exploration and colonizing our moon and the planets of our solar system to be an insane waste of precious resources, and people are no longer alerted by scientific studies that show 'X' to be harmful in any way worse than what we accept on a daily basis anyway. They are becoming inurred to the contributions of science and reason.

The great irony here is that this is all happening just as science is on the cusp of its greatest acheivements and the ushering in of a virtual technological utopia of indefinate lifespans, plentiful resources that obsetes the requirement to labor and puts the knowlege of the universe at the finger-tips of anyone who can afford an occasional connection to the internet.

We need to rebuff this notion that religion, and Christianity in particular, is incompatible with science. Most Christians do NOT believe this to be the case, but that percentage is falling day by day. Science and the rest of society stand to lose the most in a democratic political system from this rebirth of irrational world views.

How does the right even come up with this bullshit. I'm astounded.

you're astounded by most things

 

[del]

then tell the religious right to stop trashing sceince

You demonstrate my point: not all religious people trash science, dude.

In fact the vast majority of Christians and Jews endorse science across the board.

Its mostly only evangelicals and fundamentalists that try to subordinate science to their interpretations of the Bible, and they are but about one fifth of Christianity as a whole.

hense the religious "right" part of my sentance.

They deny science so they can retain their historically failed poltical positions.


They see their party as a religion too.

Religions dont need facts they need faith.

Same with the current republican party

blahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblah republicans

 

[rdean]

You demonstrate my point: not all religious people trash science, dude.

In fact the vast majority of Christians and Jews endorse science across the board.

Its mostly only evangelicals and fundamentalists that try to subordinate science to their interpretations of the Bible, and they are but about one fifth of Christianity as a whole.

hense the religious "right" part of my sentance.

They deny science so they can retain their historically failed poltical positions.


They see their party as a religion too.

Religions dont need facts they need faith.

Same with the current republican party

blahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahlahblahblahblahblahblahblah republicans

Wow, you did a great job memorizing right wing talking points.

 

[Old Rocks]

The GOP is presently rejecting science and embracing the position that willfull ignorance is a good thing. Santorum is but a symptom of this disease.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The GOP is presently rejecting science and embracing the position that willfull ignorance is a good thing. Santorum is but a symptom of this disease.

Do you mean that the GOP is rejecting all science or just a few things you consider essential to science?

I talk to a lot of GOP folks and none of them have told me that they reject science, so I am not sure what you are talking about specifically.

 

[JimBowie1958]

then tell the religious right to stop trashing sceince

You demonstrate my point: not all religious people trash science, dude.

In fact the vast majority of Christians and Jews endorse science across the board.

Its mostly only evangelicals and fundamentalists that try to subordinate science to their interpretations of the Bible, and they are but about one fifth of Christianity as a whole.

hense the religious "right" part of my sentance.

The Catholic church as about as 'right' as it gets, and yet it upholds evolution as compatable with the faith.

You seem to be engaging in a tautology; if the religion disagrees with you it is to the right, and in being to the right it rejects science itself, and so disagrees with you.

They deny science so they can retain their historically failed poltical positions.

Do you have an example?

They see their party as a religion too.

Catholics see the GOp as a religion?

Where do yo get this stuff?

Religions dont need facts they need faith.

Same with the current republican party

To some degree all ideologies require faith in various authority figures that give out the ideological set of beliefs and values.

I dont see the significance of what you are talking about. You seem to think that faith ad facts are incompatable, when they are entirely capable of compatability.

 

[uscitizen]

I like those modern deck posts that are made out of recycled grocery sacks or somesuch.

 

[uscitizen]

I also like chocolate

 

[JimBowie1958]

But today in our post-Christian, post-Modern society, the public is returning to a black-box view of science. Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions. Lacking this understanding the public is prey to all sorts of charlatans posing as scientists or doctors selling all sorts of snake oil.

How does the right even come up with this bullshit. I'm astounded.

That is one of the dumbest comments made so far.

Which part is bullshit? The part about post-modernism? That is pretty much a fact of the public domain, dude.

The part about people not understanding science and treat it like some secular kind of religion? That too is a FACT whether you can grasp it or not.

And there are plenty of examples of scientists speaking on authority with little explanation for their decrees that we just have to accept, like Mann's hockey Stick chart and the constantly changing record of adjusted global temperatures that Hansen at NASA is putting out.

Jeez, Louise, I dont mean to upset you so much by trying to talk about something that requires a little reflection instead of reflexive insults and distortions.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I also like chocolate

Apparently you also like snorting Draino.

 

[Dr Grump]

Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions.

I don't know if you wrote that or you are quoting somebody, but seriously, you have no idea. Or else you do not surround yourself with scientists, or those of that bent...

There is no faith that you will die in space without oxygen. It is a proven scientific FACT.

Humans cannot live under water without breathing apparatus - FACT.

You cannot fly a plane without thrust and lift - scientific fact

I could spend the rest of the year giving examples....

 

[JimBowie1958]

Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions.

I don't know if you wrote that or you are quoting somebody, but seriously, you have no idea. Or else you do not surround yourself with scientists, or those of that bent...

There is no faith that you will die in space without oxygen. It is a proven scientific FACT.

Humans cannot live under water without breathing apparatus - FACT.

You cannot fly a plane without thrust and lift - scientific fact

I could the rest of the year giving examples....

Those are so basic that most people understand it anyway, with or without scientists helping them.

I am refering to things not quite so easy, like Quantum Mechanics. I have met plenty of college graduates who dont understand the most basic thing about it, or all these surveys that come out supposedly proving or disproving some factoid that they were hired to prove by a sponsor of some sort. Why even bother going into String Theory or Imaginary Time, etc.

People dont understand these things and dont even bother and it is almost impossible for the average person to get a neutral perspective from a scientist since the media picks these guys for the controversy, not for the science, and so produce more heat than light.

Increasingly the general public is unable to understand new science and they get no help from the scientific establishment.

 

[rdean]

But today in our post-Christian, post-Modern society, the public is returning to a black-box view of science. Unable to understand any of it themselves, and not encouraged to even try by a growing number of scientists, more and more common is this view that science is just another form of faith system, but instead of priests or shamen, we have men in white coats who call themselves scientists and who are presumed to be oracles of Truth purely on a circular set of assumptions. Lacking this understanding the public is prey to all sorts of charlatans posing as scientists or doctors selling all sorts of snake oil.

How does the right even come up with this bullshit. I'm astounded.

That is one of the dumbest comments made so far.

Which part is bullshit? The part about post-modernism? That is pretty much a fact of the public domain, dude.

The part about people not understanding science and treat it like some secular kind of religion? That too is a FACT whether you can grasp it or not.

And there are plenty of examples of scientists speaking on authority with little explanation for their decrees that we just have to accept, like Mann's hockey Stick chart and the constantly changing record of adjusted global temperatures that Hansen at NASA is putting out.

Jeez, Louise, I dont mean to upset you so much by trying to talk about something that requires a little reflection instead of reflexive insults and distortions.

Wow, you must be a scientist. What's your "field"?

 

[JimBowie1958]

How does the right even come up with this bullshit. I'm astounded.

That is one of the dumbest comments made so far.

Which part is bullshit? The part about post-modernism? That is pretty much a fact of the public domain, dude.

The part about people not understanding science and treat it like some secular kind of religion? That too is a FACT whether you can grasp it or not.

And there are plenty of examples of scientists speaking on authority with little explanation for their decrees that we just have to accept, like Mann's hockey Stick chart and the constantly changing record of adjusted global temperatures that Hansen at NASA is putting out.

Jeez, Louise, I dont mean to upset you so much by trying to talk about something that requires a little reflection instead of reflexive insults and distortions.

Wow, you must be a scientist. What's your "field"?

Another stupid wild-assed guess by you.

What the fuck makes you think I *must* be a scientist, dumshit.

 

[whitehall]

I get the impression that Bowie is a jerk with a year in community college and full of himself with political analogies he just has to share with us. There is no conflict between religion and science. Space exploration is a noble cause but it is a luxury we can't afford while the Country is trying to get back on it's economic feet.