CDZ global collapse or U.S. collapse?

[suplex3000]

I have found a lot of talk about the devaluing of the dollar, and our ballooning national debt. i would like know is an imminent global collapse or if you believe it is isolated to the U.S. or perhaps you believe economies are so intrinsically linked that they will all go down with the U.S. should japanese people be stocking up on tin food and weapons? australians? this is a genuine thought and i'd like to know what you guys think.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Venezuela.

 

[DarkFury]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

 

[Steinlight]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

 

[Josf]

This idea of Global Collapse is a standard fiction based upon the Zero Sum Game concept. There was a power to produce more than needed for a high quality and low cost life for everyone (other than victims of criminals) over 2000 years ago; otherwise Pyramids would not have been possible. Today there are exponentially greater powers to produce hundreds if not thousands of times higher quality and lower cost life sustaining processes, including free market defense services (true government), and the same qualification applies: except those who are currently victims of criminal activity, and especially victims of criminals perpetrating crimes under the (false) color of law.

So where does all that surplus wealth go as each unit of surplus wealth is produced and either consumed, invested, or used to finance criminal activity, and especially used to finance criminal activity under the (false) color of law?



All throughout history there have been those who use available economic power to invent, produce, and maintain higher quality and lower cost methods of increasing available economic power and do so while avoiding some of the transfer of wealth often transferred to criminals (under the color of law) in the form of (false taxes) extortion payments.

So the question is not a Global Collapse according to the Zero Sum Game conspiracy theory, the question concerns which groups (non-criminal, criminal, or criminal group hidden behind false authority of government) collapsing more so than the other group, and which group gains the power to go in one of two directions.

1. Employ available surplus wealth toward increasing available surplus wealth which leads to increases in the quality of life and reductions in the cost of life for all EXCEPT the criminals whose power depends upon extorting (under the color of law or regular old crime out in the open) surplus wealth from those who produce surplus wealth.

2. Steal available surplus wealth and employ the stolen power in the work of making sure that the Zero Sum Game remains in force; whereby those who produce surplus wealth are not allowed to gain more power than those who steal surplus wealth.

Global Collapse of the criminal government network?

Is that a problem? Is that a problem for who?

 

[DarkFury]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

The fact it is the Euro helps us. But Chicago/Detroit/New York or California are our weak spots. And our damage could really effect others.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

 

[DarkFury]

This idea of Global Collapse is a standard fiction based upon the Zero Sum Game concept. There was a power to produce more than needed for a high quality and low cost life for everyone (other than victims of criminals) over 2000 years ago; otherwise Pyramids would not have been possible. Today there are exponentially greater powers to produce hundreds if not thousands of times higher quality and lower cost life sustaining processes, including free market defense services (true government), and the same qualification applies: except those who are currently victims of criminal activity, and especially victims of criminals perpetrating crimes under the (false) color of law.

So where does all that surplus wealth go as each unit of surplus wealth is produced and either consumed, invested, or used to finance criminal activity, and especially used to finance criminal activity under the (false) color of law?



All throughout history there have been those who use available economic power to invent, produce, and maintain higher quality and lower cost methods of increasing available economic power and do so while avoiding some of the transfer of wealth often transferred to criminals (under the color of law) in the form of (false taxes) extortion payments.

So the question is not a Global Collapse according to the Zero Sum Game conspiracy theory, the question concerns which groups (non-criminal, criminal, or criminal group hidden behind false authority of government) collapsing more so than the other group, and which group gains the power to go in one of two directions.

1. Employ available surplus wealth toward increasing available surplus wealth which leads to increases in the quality of life and reductions in the cost of life for all EXCEPT the criminals whose power depends upon extorting (under the color of law or regular old crime out in the open) surplus wealth from those who produce surplus wealth.

2. Steal available surplus wealth and employ the stolen power in the work of making sure that the Zero Sum Game remains in force; whereby those who produce surplus wealth are not allowed to gain more power than those who steal surplus wealth.

Global Collapse of the criminal government network?

Is that a problem? Is that a problem for who?

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

You can't really count a nations economics and criminal economics as different anymore. You see China's criminal economics is based on poppy but the DON"T grow poppy.
The Afgan economy grows poppy. So when our government economics took over that country WE took control of China's criminal economic base.

We then used the control of the Afgan criminal economy to leverage a government loan from China. So in truth we held the Chinese criminal economy hostage to get a loan from the legit Chinese economy.

 

[Steinlight]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

 

[DarkFury]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency boost exports and the economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Germany is so tied to Greece right now a Greece collapse would do Germany great harm. I think it's France listed as the number 2 investor. The biggest problem with the Euro is no one country has the ability to control or sustain it.

 

[Steinlight]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency boost exports and the economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Germany is so tied to Greece right now a Greece collapse would do Germany great harm. I think it's France listed as the number 2 investor. The biggest problem with the Euro is no one country has the ability to control or sustain it.

Exactly, they lose sovereignty to address their national economic situations and having the Euro leads to a larger and interconnected financial crisis.

Though German and other Euro investors will take a hit from a Grexit, in the long run Germany will be better off as the Euro will strengthen in the long run not tied to Greek debt. They need to take the haircut from their bad bets on this one.

 

[DarkFury]

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency boost exports and the economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Germany is so tied to Greece right now a Greece collapse would do Germany great harm. I think it's France listed as the number 2 investor. The biggest problem with the Euro is no one country has the ability to control or sustain it.

Exactly, they lose sovereignty to address their national economic situations and having the Euro leads to a larger and interconnected financial crisis.

Though German and other Euro investors will take a hit from a Grexit, in the long run Germany will be better off as the Euro will strengthen in the long run not tied to Greek debt. They need to take the haircut from their bad bets on this one.

The Euro was built for appearence to the US economy but is not as flexible. We have a storm in Florida and you could get money from Idaho. They have no central government to back their central money.

In a disaster our reaction time on economics can be days but theirs? Months. A national economy simply needs to flex faster then that to be of any use.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

 

[Steinlight]

Global, you look at the last major depression it was global. Depends on the trigger country. Greece could trigger Germany and hurt Europe.

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Greece just doesn't matter like they did 5 years ago.
If they leave the EU, the market will do a quick drop, but it won't hurt any economy
but their own.

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

Greece is dependent on their exports

They're dependent on borrowing. When you can't collect enough taxes and everyone works for the government and retires early, you need to borrow a lot.

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement

What has their deficit been the last few years, excluding debt payments?
What's the projection for this year and next?

If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

I agree. And those foreigners aren't going to give the Greeks anymore cash.
They'll have to cut spending to get into balance. Like I said, they'll look back on this austerity with nostalgia. The good old days.

 

[DarkFury]

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

Greece is dependent on their exports

They're dependent on borrowing. When you can't collect enough taxes and everyone works for the government and retires early, you need to borrow a lot.

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement

What has their deficit been the last few years, excluding debt payments?
What's the projection for this year and next?

If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

I agree. And those foreigners aren't going to give the Greeks anymore cash.
They'll have to cut spending to get into balance. Like I said, they'll look back on this austerity with nostalgia. The good old days.

Greece needs to accept the fact its bankrupt and declare it. Then get ready to live like a 3rd world nation for the next five decades.
Wars start over stuff like this and Greece could not fight its way out of a paper bag.

 

[Steinlight]

In the long run, they are better off with the Drachma than the Euro. They should bite the bullet and exit sooner rather than later.

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

They're dependent on borrowing.

What has their deficit been the last few years, excluding debt payments?
What's the projection for this year and next?

They'll have to cut spending to get into balance. Like I said, they'll look back on this austerity with nostalgia. The good old days.

Non-sequitur argument

Why don't you google it?

If they default, they won't have to pay off the debt or "balance".

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nah. They'd have to devalue by at least a half.
Living standards would collapse. They'd long for the days of austerity.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

They're dependent on borrowing.

What has their deficit been the last few years, excluding debt payments?
What's the projection for this year and next?

They'll have to cut spending to get into balance. Like I said, they'll look back on this austerity with nostalgia. The good old days.

Non-sequitur argument

Why don't you google it?

If they default, they won't have to pay off the debt or "balance".

If their budget was balanced already, they could default and not cut spending.
It's not. If austerity was tough when the EU was giving them money, it'll be worse when the EU stops.

 

[Steinlight]

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong. They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit. But they certainly shouldn't have a currency tied to German productivity, this artificially strong currency is preventing a recovery along with austerity.

Country's need sovereign currencies that reflect their national economic interest. The Euro, a currency across multiple isn't sustainable in the long run due varying economic interests and conditions.

Not in the long run, you are simply wrong.

Define long run.

They need a devalued currency to boost exports and the overall economy.

Absolutely. And with that devauled currency comes less oil and other imports.

Austerity(spending cuts and tax hikes) has gutted their economy and since it was implemented unemployment has risen in a parallel fashion.

And a huge currency devaluation also leads to spending cuts.

They would be better off defaulting like Iceland did and taking the short term hit.

Iceland didn't need huge gifts from other countries to finance a bloated welfare state.

In a year or two.

Greece is dependent on their exports, most notably their shipping/maritime industry. There wasn't an energy crisis when they had a weaker currency before the Euro

Doesn't lead to spending cuts if you default on the debt agreement, which is what they should do.

Austerity isn't a gift, it has been the death of their economy. If investors don't like the default, tough shit, they made a bad bet and should have never let Greece into the EU to begin with.

They're dependent on borrowing.

What has their deficit been the last few years, excluding debt payments?
What's the projection for this year and next?

They'll have to cut spending to get into balance. Like I said, they'll look back on this austerity with nostalgia. The good old days.

Non-sequitur argument

Why don't you google it?

If they default, they won't have to pay off the debt or "balance".

If their budget was balanced already, they could default and not cut spending.
It's not. If austerity was tough when the EU was giving them money, it'll be worse when the EU stops.

That makes no sense, if there budget was balanced, they wouldn't have had to implement austerity to pay back their creditors.