Gay marriage

[007]

First, welcome to the USMB.

Second, I certainly hope that you aren't a "one-post wonder" that we get from time to time.

Third, if I may ask: in your own words, how do you reconcile the Biblical prohibitions against homosexual behavior with your lifestyle choices (i.e. being a practicing homosexual and a practicing Christian)? I'm not trying to bait or anything; I've never met anyone who claimed to be both homosexual and Christian. I'd be interested to hear your response.

He may claim he's a Christian, but in the same breath, he's got to know that God does NOT condone homosexual behavior. As a matter of fact, he's pretty damn dead set against it, and he's not going to go easy on you when you die if you don't change your ways.

 

[5stringJeff]

He may claim he's a Christian, but in the same breath, he's got to know that God does NOT condone homosexual behavior. As a matter of fact, he's pretty damn dead set against it, and he's not going to go easy on you when you die if you don't change your ways.

Which is why I asked how he can reconcile the two. But I doubt he'll be back.

 

[JohnnyB]

First, welcome to the USMB.

Second, I certainly hope that you aren't a "one-post wonder" that we get from time to time.

Third, if I may ask: in your own words, how do you reconcile the Biblical prohibitions against homosexual behavior with your lifestyle choices (i.e. being a practicing homosexual and a practicing Christian)? I'm not trying to bait or anything; I've never met anyone who claimed to be both homosexual and Christian. I'd be interested to hear your response.

It's just amazing to me that people are so closed minded on this issue. Until you have walked in my shoes, your really have no idea as to who I really am and what my relationship with God is. Like I have said...we have the right to worship our God however we feel is right. NO ONE can tell us otherwise. But it seems that everyone is so quick to tell gays & lesbians that they do not have the right to believe in God the way we do, and are very quick to tell us HOW to worship and judge us for who we are.

I have ALWAYS been attracted to men. You can say that is gross or think whatever you want but that IS the way I have always been. And when I was in a heterosexual relationship I knew and felt the it was wrong for me. It wasn't until I met Joe and fell in love with him that I truly understood what "LOVE" was all about.

Being homosexual is NOT a choice...it is how we were born. Think about it, why would anyone ever put themselves out there to be treated so horribly? Do you really think that people just want to be treated like second-class citizens for the "fun" of it?

Knowing all my life that this is the way I have always felt, and try as I might to feel differently didn't make it go away, and knowing that God is the creator of everything I know that God created me and I'm not so sure He makes mistakes. So if God created me this way, then how can it be wrong?

When Jesus set forth the new covenant, he NEVER once talks about homosexuality. He does however tell everyone that you should first and foremost love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Then he says that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Somehow all the gay bashing that seems to be going on here by all these "Christians" doesn't seen to be following in line with Jesus' teachings.

I know I'm right with God. And you or anyone else do not have the right to tell me that I'm not a Christian. Sure you can say it all day long, but I know in my heart that God and I are on the same page. Jesus was persecuted for his beliefs too. Looks like to me I'm in good company.

JohnnyB

 

[no1tovote4]

My Religion has no particular injunction against homosexuality...

Here is a website about Theravada Buddhism and homosexuality.

http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/Homosex.htm

There are many Buddhists that would use the Vinaya (monastic principal) that prohibits all sexual activity and includes homosexuality, however this applies only to Monks who are to be celibate.

The question would be whether the relationship violates the third Precept.

 

[freeandfun1]

It's just amazing to me that people are so closed minded on this issue. Until you have walked in my shoes, your really have no idea as to who I really am and what my relationship with God is. Like I have said...we have the right to worship our God however we feel is right. NO ONE can tell us otherwise. But it seems that everyone is so quick to tell gays & lesbians that they do not have the right to believe in God the way we do, and are very quick to tell us HOW to worship and judge us for who we are.

I have ALWAYS been attracted to men. You can say that is gross or think whatever you want but that IS the way I have always been. And when I was in a heterosexual relationship I knew and felt the it was wrong for me. It wasn't until I met Joe and fell in love with him that I truly understood what "LOVE" was all about.

Being homosexual is NOT a choice...it is how we were born. Think about it, why would anyone ever put themselves out there to be treated so horribly? Do you really think that people just want to be treated like second-class citizens for the "fun" of it?

Knowing all my life that this is the way I have always felt, and try as I might to feel differently didn't make it go away, and knowing that God is the creator of everything I know that God created me and I'm not so sure He makes mistakes. So if God created me this way, then how can it be wrong?

When Jesus set forth the new covenant, he NEVER once talks about homosexuality. He does however tell everyone that you should first and foremost love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Then he says that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Somehow all the gay bashing that seems to be going on here by all these "Christians" doesn't seen to be following in line with Jesus' teachings.

I know I'm right with God. And you or anyone else do not have the right to tell me that I'm not a Christian. Sure you can say it all day long, but I know in my heart that God and I are on the same page. Jesus was persecuted for his beliefs too. Looks like to me I'm in good company.

JohnnyB

As long as you admit you are sinning, I am sure God will forgive you. However, to deny you are living in sin is turning your back on God. Don't claim to be Christian and then turn your back on the teaching of Christ. Christ spoke against perverted sex and he said that men should remain single, but that they did not have to be like Him, so it is okay if they take a WIFE. Notice, he said WIFE. Not "partner".

You are living in sin. Admit your sins before Christ and I am sure you will be forgiven. Deny your sin and you will be judged by God accordingly.

Lastly, we don't have a "right" to worship God however we feel is right. We are told clearly what we are to do and that is how we are to worship Him. You are making excuses for your sorry self and not facing reality.

 

[5stringJeff]

JohnnyB, did you even read my post? There was no attack on your lifestyle, only an honest question on how you reconciled the Bible with your actions. But, if you really want to get into it, let's start here:

we have the right to worship our God however we feel is right. NO ONE can tell us otherwise.

This is incorrect. God does not accept all forms of worship from us. For example, human sacrifice is not an acceptable way to worship God. Moreover, you are confusing the act of worship with the choices we make in our actions. We are called to live lives holy and pleasing in the sight of God, which means repenting (turning away) from our sins and living in obedience to God's commands.

I have ALWAYS been attracted to men. You can say that is gross or think whatever you want but that IS the way I have always been. And when I was in a heterosexual relationship I knew and felt the it was wrong for me. It wasn't until I met Joe and fell in love with him that I truly understood what "LOVE" was all about.

Being homosexual is NOT a choice...it is how we were born. Think about it, why would anyone ever put themselves out there to be treated so horribly? Do you really think that people just want to be treated like second-class citizens for the "fun" of it?

I don't doubt that you, or others, are more susceptible to the sin of homosexuality. I am personally quite susceptible to the sin of lust; others I know are more susceptible to other sins, like cursing, or gossip, etc. etc. But these actions are all sins. Just because we are more susceptible to certain sins doesn't make them any less wrong.

Knowing all my life that this is the way I have always felt, and try as I might to feel differently didn't make it go away, and knowing that God is the creator of everything I know that God created me and I'm not so sure He makes mistakes. So if God created me this way, then how can it be wrong?

While God created each of us, He did not create us for sin. He created us to live lives that are pleasing to Him. I suggest reading up on Romans 1-8, for a good discussion of the flesh (human nature, if you read NIV) and how we are designed to be slaves to God, not slaves to our flesh, and that we can do so through the grace of God.

When Jesus set forth the new covenant, he NEVER once talks about homosexuality. He does however tell everyone that you should first and foremost love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Then he says that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Somehow all the gay bashing that seems to be going on here by all these "Christians" doesn't seen to be following in line with Jesus' teachings.

You'll also recall, then, that Jesus said that He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The teachings of Jesus, while central to our common religion, are not the only teachings that we live by.
However, Jesus did say one thing that I think we can all live by. When the woman accused of adultery was spared a stoning, He asked where her accusers were. She responded that there were none left. Jesus said, "Neither do I accuse you. Go and sin no more." In that response, we see God's infinite grace, by refusing to accuse us, and His admonition to leave our sinful lives and cease sinning.

I know I'm right with God. And you or anyone else do not have the right to tell me that I'm not a Christian. Sure you can say it all day long, but I know in my heart that God and I are on the same page. Jesus was persecuted for his beliefs too. Looks like to me I'm in good company.

JohnnyB

I never claimed that you weren't a Christian. Don't try and play the martyr just because someone questions you about your behavior. That's what Christians are supposed to do with each other - keep each other from straying into sin.

 

[dmp]

It's just amazing to me that people are so closed minded on this issue. Until you have walked in my shoes, your really have no idea as to who I really am and what my relationship with God is. Like I have said...we have the right to worship our God however we feel is right. NO ONE can tell us otherwise. But it seems that everyone is so quick to tell gays & lesbians that they do not have the right to believe in God the way we do, and are very quick to tell us HOW to worship and judge us for who we are.

It's funny that you are closed-minded towards the possibility that you are wrong. Frankly, if you believe the Bible is true, you'll see that you are in fact, sinning by continuing in your man-on-man sexual relations. I would never judge 'who' you are - you seem like a stand-up kinda guy. The Bible claims your lifestyle choice as sinful. I and others are just reminding you of that.

I have ALWAYS been attracted to men. You can say that is gross or think whatever you want but that IS the way I have always been. And when I was in a heterosexual relationship I knew and felt the it was wrong for me. It wasn't until I met Joe and fell in love with him that I truly understood what "LOVE" was all about.

And I'm attracted to men too. I'm attracted to Jeff because he's got good qualities. He's forthright. He's honest. He's got a great sense of humour. He tolerates me hanging around. I believe you mislabel normal attraction and assume that means you must have sex with that person to validate the attraction/friendship.

Being homosexual is NOT a choice...it is how we were born. Think about it, why would anyone ever put themselves out there to be treated so horribly? Do you really think that people just want to be treated like second-class citizens for the "fun" of it?

That argument isn't honest. It's simply not valid. Why would people choose to be crack addicts? Why would people choose to be Christians? People make choices because they believe the rewards of the choice outweigh the penalities/consequences.

Knowing all my life that this is the way I have always felt, and try as I might to feel differently didn't make it go away, and knowing that God is the creator of everything I know that God created me and I'm not so sure He makes mistakes. So if God created me this way, then how can it be wrong?

God created me with the feeling that I want to speed everywhere I go. God created me with the feeling that i should take what is not mine. I don't blame GOD for my speeding or stealing. Those things aren't of God, but are the resulty of my human/fleshly/sinful lusts. Just as your enjoyment of having sexual relations with another man are simply the result of you giving over to your deviant desires. Yeah - I too am curious what sex is like for a woman; sometimes I think I'd swap bodies with my wife for a night (just to see what it's like - as long as it wasn't 'me' doing 'me in her body', cuz frankly? I can't see how she could EVER enjoy me being the guy doin' her : ). However the big difference is, I have the god-given ability to leave it as that. Curious, but not given over to it. I'm not consumed by my 'wondering what its like'.

When Jesus set forth the new covenant, he NEVER once talks about homosexuality. He does however tell everyone that you should first and foremost love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Then he says that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Somehow all the gay bashing that seems to be going on here by all these "Christians" doesn't seen to be following in line with Jesus' teachings.

Jesus also didn't talk about drinking. Or using a cell-phone while driving. Or murder. Or a myriad of OTHER actitivies which may or may not be sinful.

I know I'm right with God. And you or anyone else do not have the right to tell me that I'm not a Christian. Sure you can say it all day long, but I know in my heart that God and I are on the same page. Jesus was persecuted for his beliefs too. Looks like to me I'm in good company.

JohnnyB

It's strange how you can ignore blatant chastisement of homosexuality it OTHER parts of the bible, because in ONE part (the part with red text) homosexuality may not be specificially mentioned.

I know God and you are on the same page. Here's the page God is on. God LOVES you, Johnny. God weeps that you suffer spiritually and physically beacuse of your lusts. God knows you are human, and will and do Fail, like anybody else. Eventually God will hold you accountable for your blatant refusial to accept his guidance. Whether that is spiritual or physical consequence remains to be seen...but would you consider me 'right with God' if I continually had adulterous relations with women because it 'felt right' because Jesus didn't specificially mention adultry in those passages you mention? Because I would attest "Having sex with MANY women is 'who I was born to be!' After all, who would 'chose to have adulterous relations? I mean, honestly, who could CHOOSE that lifestyle, and face Biblical acountability and social bad-treatment?"

 

[Trinity]

Nice posts guys!

 

[SmarterThanYou]

That argument isn't honest. It's simply not valid. Why would people choose to be crack addicts? Why would people choose to be Christians? People make choices because they believe the rewards of the choice outweigh the penalities/consequences.

This is a statement I have to chime in upon. Most people who are addicts of anything don't CHOOSE to be an addict, they CHOOSE to experiment with the drug. It's been proven that some people are more prone to addictions than others via some sort of physical/mental makeup in the chemical balance/imbalance of the brain. Thats why some people can try a drug once or twice and leave it alone for the rest of their lives while others seem to be hooked immediately.

 

[no1tovote4]

Nice posts guys!

I tried to rep them, but I have to spread some around first.

 

[dmp]

This is a statement I have to chime in upon. Most people who are addicts of anything don't CHOOSE to be an addict, they CHOOSE to experiment with the drug. It's been proven that some people are more prone to addictions than others via some sort of physical/mental makeup in the chemical balance/imbalance of the brain. Thats why some people can try a drug once or twice and leave it alone for the rest of their lives while others seem to be hooked immediately.

But does it really matter? in the context of my post?

 

[JohnnyB]

As long as you admit you are sinning, I am sure God will forgive you. However, to deny you are living in sin is turning your back on God. Don't claim to be Christian and then turn your back on the teaching of Christ. Christ spoke against perverted sex and he said that men should remain single, but that they did not have to be like Him, so it is okay if they take a WIFE. Notice, he said WIFE. Not "partner".

You are living in sin. Admit your sins before Christ and I am sure you will be forgiven. Deny your sin and you will be judged by God accordingly.

Lastly, we don't have a "right" to worship God however we feel is right. We are told clearly what we are to do and that is how we are to worship Him. You are making excuses for your sorry self and not facing reality.

Well if the finger pointer of sin is working...I sure hope you are pointing at yourself too. I also know that the Bible speaks quite candidly about judging others. But I guess the type of "Christian" you are, the rules do not apply unless you are using them to hurt other people. You are SO quick to throw out hatered towards a group of people. I know that Jesus would not have done what you are doing.

And YES we do have the right to worship how ever we believe. NO ONE in this country tells Jewish people they are going to Hell because they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Their religion says that Jesus was a profit not the messiah. Catholics believe that birth control is an abominason...are they wrong? They also believe that sexual relations between two poeple should ONLY be for the purpose of having children. I'm sure that isn't going to change. Are they wrong too? Who has the right answer? So why don't you get up on your high horse about what they are doing? Point that sin-free finger of yours at them.

If you forced your beliefs on everyone to worship God the way you believe just how many people do you think would be following you? Even the people who have responded against gays & lesbians on this thread would not ALL agree that you are correct in your interpretation of what "Christian" really is.

May God bless you with understanding and not hate,JohnnyB

 

[Trinity]

I tried to rep them, but I have to spread some around first.

Yeah me too!

 

[Trinity]

AC/DC - Hells Bells





oops damn wrong thread!!! :funnyface

 

[SmarterThanYou]

But does it really matter? in the context of my post?

it does when you use comparisons that have nothing do with each other. nobody chooses to be a crack addict, though they choose to use crack. People can choose to be a christian, then find out that its not how they believe and choose judaism instead.

One is choosing to follow a belief system while the other is becoming dependent on a physical substance.

you'd have been better off using the drinking of alcohol as your comparison. Some people try beer, wine, and hard liquor only to find that they can't stomach the hard liquor and beer tastes icky to them, so they drink wine only.

 

[dmp]

Well if the finger pointer of sin is working...I sure hope you are pointing at yourself too. I also know that the Bible speaks quite candidly about judging others. But I guess the type of "Christian" you are, the rules do not apply unless you are using them to hurt other people. You are SO quick to throw out hatered towards a group of people. I know that Jesus would not have done what you are doing.

I thought you didn't believe the whole bible? why are you now using it to change the topic at hand? And you are misunderstanding - we aren't to judge 'others' - but as a Body - THE body of christ, we are to chastize with love, and correct the continuous sin of our brothers and sisters. They, in turn, are suppose to welcome the help, and repent.

And YES we do have the right to worship how ever we believe. NO ONE in this country tells Jewish people they are going to Hell because they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Their religion says that Jesus was a profit not the messiah. Catholics believe that birth control is an abominason...are they wrong? They also believe that sexual relations between two poeple should ONLY be for the purpose of having children. I'm sure that isn't going to change. Are they wrong too? Who has the right answer? So why don't you get up on your high horse about what they are doing? Point that sin-free finger of yours at them.

Again - those religions you mention are constructs of Man. GOD, via the Bible, allows for very defined means of worship.

If you forced your beliefs on everyone to worship God the way you believe just how many people do you think would be following you? Even the people who have responded against gays & lesbians on this thread would not ALL agree that you are correct in your interpretation of what "Christian" really is.

May God bless you with understanding and not hate,JohnnyB

Do you know that NARROW is the path to Christ, and only a 'few' shall find it? God is NOT in the business of 'everything goes, because God is LOVE'.

Did you know, many 'sins' are described as such BECAUSE God loves us? Yup. Many times, God asks us to refrain from activities, attitudes which are HARMFUL to us physically and mentally. You continuing in your homosexaul activity is hurting YOU - not God. God asks you to stop that behaviour/attitude for YOUR benefit.

Have you researched any gay-recovery resources? If you trully love God, and want to do the right thing, you owe it to yourself to at least check it out.

 

[dmp]

it does when you use comparisons that have nothing do with each other. nobody chooses to be a crack addict, though they choose to use crack. People can choose to be a christian, then find out that its not how they believe and choose judaism instead.

One is choosing to follow a belief system while the other is becoming dependent on a physical substance.

you'd have been better off using the drinking of alcohol as your comparison. Some people try beer, wine, and hard liquor only to find that they can't stomach the hard liquor and beer tastes icky to them, so they drink wine only.

...so...you felt compelled to invalidate everything else I wrote, because my example didn't meet your standard? Yet, you DO know what I meant by using examples of other behaviour people willingly CHOOSE to partake in. You completely 'got' my point, yet choice to dissent for the sake of dissent?

 

[no1tovote4]

Well if the finger pointer of sin is working...I sure hope you are pointing at yourself too. I also know that the Bible speaks quite candidly about judging others. But I guess the type of "Christian" you are, the rules do not apply unless you are using them to hurt other people. You are SO quick to throw out hatered towards a group of people. I know that Jesus would not have done what you are doing.

And YES we do have the right to worship how ever we believe. NO ONE in this country tells Jewish people they are going to Hell because they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Their religion says that Jesus was a profit not the messiah. Catholics believe that birth control is an abominason...are they wrong? They also believe that sexual relations between two poeple should ONLY be for the purpose of having children. I'm sure that isn't going to change. Are they wrong too? Who has the right answer? So why don't you get up on your high horse about what they are doing? Point that sin-free finger of yours at them.

If you forced your beliefs on everyone to worship God the way you believe just how many people do you think would be following you? Even the people who have responded against gays & lesbians on this thread would not ALL agree that you are correct in your interpretation of what "Christian" really is.

May God bless you with understanding and not hate,JohnnyB

I always find it fascinating when people judge others to be "judgemental" and sinful therefore...

By the very act of pointing out their "sin" of judging you, you bring yourself into an odd hypocrisy of nature. You deem them to be unworthy Christians because they judge you, yet you judge them to be unworthy because they have "sinned".

It is interesting to see the debate unfold as to who is "sinning" the one pointing out the sinful nature of "judging" others or the one pointing out the sinful nature of homosexuality. Either way the Bible has stated that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It also instructs Christians to help each other to stay within the teachings of God, at the same time saying not to judge them.

As far as I have read, not even one person has posted saying you are not a Christian or they know the destiny of your soul based on your religion. They have not said that God hates you, only reminded you of passages that remark that homosexuality is wrong according to your religion...

I don't know if reminding others of passages in the Bible is judging, or teaching. I guess it really depends on the view...

 

[5stringJeff]

...so...you felt compelled to invalidate everything else I wrote, because my example didn't meet your standard? Yet, you DO know what I meant by using examples of other behaviour people willingly CHOOSE to partake in. You completely 'got' my point, yet choice to dissent for the sake of dissent?

It's deja vu!

 

[dmp]

I always find it fascinating when people judge others to be "judgemental" and sinful therefore...

By the very act of pointing out their "sin" of judging you, you bring yourself into an odd hypocrisy of nature. You deem them to be unworthy Christians because they judge you, yet you judge them to be unworthy because they have "sinned".

It is interesting to see the debate unfold as to who is "sinning" the one pointing out the sinful nature of "judging" others or the one pointing out the sinful nature of homosexuality. Either way the Bible has stated that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It also instructs Christians to help each other stay withing the teachings of God, at the same time saying not to judge them. As far as I have read, not even one person has posted saying you are not a Christian or they know the destiny of your soul based on your religion. They have not said that God hates you, only reminded you of passages that remark that homosexuality is wrong according to your religion...

I don't know if reminding others of passages in the Bible is judging, or teaching. I guess it really depends on the view...

Brother, you'd make a helluva good Christian.