G. Beck had an interesting point on his show.

[Mr.Fitnah]

Communism essentially requires that the goods and works of the achievers be taken and distributed to the people that are not achieving and that requires force leading to a dictatorship.

No it doesn't, on either point. It requires the means of production be owned communally and not by private individuals or corporations, so nothing can be taken away because it wasn't there in the first place. It requires everyone to partake in production and it affords everyone their needs. A dictatorship isn't required, although the dictatorship of the proletariat is a phrase we've all read and heard. What is required is planning for the economy and that's where in practical terms it can fall down. That's why market socialism has evolved as a theory. And I think perhaps the former Yugoslavia was a fair example of market socialism, although like anything else, it had its flaws.

Does the community tell me my needs as well?

 

[antagon]

It wasn't until the 19th Century that a word was required for the situation where someone couldn't find paid work. Think about it.

Okay, you thought about it.

Where the means of production are owned privately then work is only available on the terms set by the owners of the means of production. And the owners of the means of production only want sufficient minimal numbers of employees to guarantee that their enterprise can function. Take that to a society-wide basis and it means that where the means of production are privately owned there will be "unemployment" (that was the word coined in the 19th Century). The twin laws of demand and supply, when applied to labour, mean that there must be more people looking for work then jobs available, that keeps wages down to a level that the owners like to pay because it means they get their surplus value. Where everyone who can work gets a job leads to the situation where owners are bargaining against each other with workers to come and work for them and that isn't good for the owners as it means they pay wages which are higher than they want to.

Where the means of production are socially owned people who can work must work but they don't get exploited as they do in a free market economy.

thats nicely put garbage d.

the supply of workers remains unchanged in your silly world. whats the difference?

in fact wages in a forced ('must work' as you put it) hiring system would have to be reduced either in cash to reflect the same component of production as before... or in kind as a result of the cost of goods reflecting the unnecessary labor contributed to their production (inflation).

i thought most commies threw wages and all out the window, anyhow. what's the point?

null net change in 'exploitation'.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

calling cuba a dictatorship because they are doing that there isnt fair to your beloved communism.

Are you retarded?

a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.)
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


Cuba meets that definition to a T

cuba has a constitution, dummy. laws too.

So did Germany. Hitler's rise to power was Constitutional, following the Beer Hall Pusche.

Does that mean Hitler wasn't a dictator?

it establishes the most legit communist nation on the planet, imho... all for what that's worth.

Since reality clearly isn't important to you, it's not worth much.

didnt read your link. 'dictatorship' and 'fascism' are among terms projected onto regimes by their enemies. cubans, hundreds of thousands who are proud of their country, and havent or dont want to abandon it, dont find it to be a dictatorship, rather a workers' republic.

Lay off the Michael Moore and face reality, man. There's a reason so many Cubans try to make their way here any way they can.

typical of folks who think communism is a viable system for governance of large populations

You're an idiot, aren't you?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/107632-a-red-republic-what-is-the-socialism-i-seek.html

 

[ihopehefails]

The means may be communally owned but you are not and your work is what is taken. You are not afforded the right to your own works in a communistic society. I never meant to say that a dictatorship was necessary, just likely.

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

I wonder how is that possible when I see a ton of people working in a capatilistic society. Clearly they have the right to work if they are working.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

 

[ihopehefails]

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

How do we determine what is fair or not and once we determine what is fair and impose that on both the employee and the employer are we not restricting their free choice to decide between themselves?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

typical of folks who think communism is a viable system for governance of large populations

You're an idiot, aren't you?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/107632-a-red-republic-what-is-the-socialism-i-seek.html

I'd say he's spot on.....for...despite the beliefs of gullible card-carrying members like you....there has never been a viable one....

After reading your "Red Republic" vision.....and sludging through all your devious bromides....it's quite easy to see that you are...

... against capitalism....since you advocate elimination of corporate charters.....
... you advocate socialism/communism....like "encouraging" coops...

This is NOT what the Founding Fathers actually had in mind nor "envisioned"....otherwise they would have written the Constitution differently to establish socialism/communism.....however.....they didn't.

There are better ways.... besides destroying capitalism.... to address some of the problems you complain about...

 

[Kex]

The means may be communally owned but you are not and your work is what is taken. You are not afforded the right to your own works in a communistic society. I never meant to say that a dictatorship was necessary, just likely.

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

I wonder how is that possible when I see a ton of people working in a capatilistic society. Clearly they have the right to work if they are working.

/woosh

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

typical of folks who think communism is a viable system for governance of large populations

You're an idiot, aren't you?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/107632-a-red-republic-what-is-the-socialism-i-seek.html

I'd say he's spot on.....for...despite the beliefs of gullible card-carrying members like you....there has never been a viable one....

After reading your "Red Republic" vision.....and sludging through all your devious bromides....it's quite easy to see that you are...

... against capitalism....since you advocate elimination of corporate charters.....
... you advocate socialism/communism....like "encouraging" coops...

This is NOT what the Founding Fathers actually had in mind nor "envisioned"....otherwise they would have written the Constitution differently to establish socialism/communism.....however.....they didn't.

There are better ways.... besides destroying capitalism.... to address some of the problems you complain about...

Dont hassle the working class hero.

 

[Kex]

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

How do we determine what is fair or not and once we determine what is fair and impose that on both the employee and the employer are we not restricting their free choice to decide between themselves?

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

 

[blu]

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

indeed. and the chance of profit in future or present is what drives many people who have no other motivating factors. While I am lucky to really like what I do (I did it for free/hobby many years during school), now being tied for 2nd in the chain of command at a company that does it now is certainly rewarding.

 

[Kex]

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

In a capitalistic system there is no taxes, wtf are you talking about? If you are stupid enough to think that the system in place is capitalistic you're stupid enough to not be worth of reply.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

In a capitalistic system there is no taxes, wtf are you talking about? If you are stupid enough to think that the system in place is capitalistic you're stupid enough to not be worth of reply.

Well then....i guess you guys don't have to worry about getting rid of all those nasty CAPITALISTS in America.....

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

We dont live in a capitalist society , a private central bank own the money, the government borrows it , The bank profits and the citizens argue and fight and never call on the government for abrogating one of its primary responsibilities.
Anyone for getting faked out?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

How do we determine what is fair or not and once we determine what is fair and impose that on both the employee and the employer are we not restricting their free choice to decide between themselves?

Then level the playing field and allow the workers' unions to bargain with the employers fairly and evenly.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

We dont live in a capitalist society , a private central bank own the money, the government borrows it , The bank profits and the citizens argue and fight and never call on the government for abrogating one of its primary responsibilities.
Anyone for getting faked out?

you definitely got a point there...

 

[Kex]

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....



In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

In a capitalistic system there is no taxes, wtf are you talking about? If you are stupid enough to think that the system in place is capitalistic you're stupid enough to not be worth of reply.

Well then....i guess you guys don't have to worry about getting rid of all those nasty CAPITALISTS in America.....

You mean ideological ones? Why would we want to get rid off those clowns?

 

[manu1959]

You're not afforded right to your work in a capitalistic society either. Your work is taken by your owner who affords you with whatever he seems fit.

You have the right to work or to not work for someone else in a free capitalistic socieity...in essence your are selling your time/knowledge for a paycheck...or you go hungry...

If you choose to work for yourself....without a boss....then you must STILL sell your time/knowledge/goods to others in order to get a "paycheck"...

In a FREE society you have that CHOICE..... and if you want to really make some good money you will most likely choose the latter method...since you are allowed to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....therein lies the big difference between capitalism and communism....

I wasn't discussing this. I was replying to the comment that suggested that in 'communistic' society fruits of labor belong to the government, while in capitalistic it belongs to you, what is clearly false. You're afforded just part of it.

In a capitalistic system you do have to pay your taxes.....but after that you get to KEEP THE PROFITS you make....this is how so many American millionairs have been made.....

How many millionaires were created under communism.....?

having lived in the soviet union for a time......quite a few millionaires and billionaires were created......just join the party....and dive into the black market.....

 

[manu1959]

I think Kex is suggesting the employee often does not receive fair return from his employer for the labor and effort he gives to the employer.

How do we determine what is fair or not and once we determine what is fair and impose that on both the employee and the employer are we not restricting their free choice to decide between themselves?

Then level the playing field and allow the workers' unions to bargain with the employers fairly and evenly.

yep...and watch the cost of goods go up to pay higher wages and benifits.....then watch non union countries build the same products for less and bury the us labour force.....