Debate Now Final Countdown (the movie) and the Ultimate Question

[WorldWatcher]

Interesting. But sooner or later the Nimitz would have to be resupplied. And they knew where all the mistakes would be made for the next 40 years. Wouldn't they want to be able to educate the U.S. government and military on that?

(That is one of the arguments from the movie by a character who wanted to destroy the Japanese fleet.)

Resupplied with what?

Food? Sure.

Techologically advance parts to keep the aircraft and ships systems running? No so much. They didn't exist and the military complex at the time couldn't produce replacements. Sure it would have thrown technology development into overdrive but it still would have taken 10-20 years to develop the manufacturing systems capable of making the computer system and advanced weaponry used by the ship and aircraft.

The biggest impact (IMHO) would have been the point in time pertaining to Pearl Harbor.

WW

 

[Foxfyre]

Resupplied with what?

Food? Sure.

Techologically advance parts to keep the aircraft and ships systems running? No so much. They didn't exist and the military complex at the time couldn't produce replacements. Sure it would have thrown technology development into overdrive but it still would have taken 10-20 years to develop the manufacturing systems capable of making the computer system and advanced weaponry used by the ship and aircraft.

The biggest impact (IMHO) would have been the point in time pertaining to Pearl Harbor.

WW

The point being that it would be hard not to share the technical and scientific knowledge they had with the people of 1941 and steer them away from the mistakes that didn't have to be made and such. That and stopping the massacre at Pearl Harbor would have had much further reaching consequences than just Pearl Harbor. How that might have played out, we have no way of knowing.

 

[westwall]

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION DEBATE:

This has nothing to do with current politics so leave current politics out of it please. No Trump/Biden/Obama or another current political figure bashing, no mention of what modern day Republicans or Democrats would do. Let's focus on ourselves and what we would do given the authority in the situation.

The 1980 movie "Final Countdown" is probably closer to sci-fi genre than anything else but it didn't feel like sci-fi.

The basic premise is that a 1980 aircraft carrier on routine maneuvers gets caught in a weird storm that is actually a time warp and they find themselves moved 40 years back in time to December 6, 1941.

Once they figure out what happened, and knowing the history, they sent out a plane to determine if the Japanese fleet was out there. And when they determined that it was, they had their own debate aboard ship. What to do?

1. They were sworn to defend the United State of America, and a 1980 Aircraft carrier had enough fire power on that one ship to take out the entire Japanese fleet. That would have prevented the USA from getting into WWII and saved hundreds of thousands of American lives.

BUT history always includes many unexpected consequences.

2. It also likely meant that the U.S. never would have gotten into WWII or would have waited too long. Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito would likely have prevailed and how many nations would have fallen under their power? Almost certainly they would not have been brought to unconditional surrender and would not be the peaceful democratic nations they are now.

Knowing the history, if you were the captain of the U.S.S. Nimitz and could have taken out the Japanese fleet and prevented the attack on Pearl Harbor, would you have given the order to do that?

The poll allows you to change your vote:

Nope. Knowing the outcome would prevent me from interfering. You interfere, and you have no idea what chain of events you would set off

 

[Foxfyre]

Nope. Knowing the outcome would prevent me from interfering. You interfere, and you have no idea what chain of events you would set off

Intellectually I agree with you. But emotionally thinking about all those people being senselessly killed. . .

I still can't change my vote from I don't know what I would have done in that particular situation.

 

[westwall]

Intellectually I agree with you. But emotionally thinking about all those people being senselessly killed. . .

I still can't change my vote from I don't know what I would have done in that particular situation.

I know, but how many more might die because you interfered? That's the question.

 

[Foxfyre]

I know, but how many more might die because you interfered? That's the question.

That is the big question for sure. And because we can't know all the consequences of altering history is what makes it so gut wrenching a decision.

 

[westwall]

That is the big question for sure. And because we can't know all the consequences of altering history is what makes it so gut wrenching a decision.

Correct. Far better to go with the history you know.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The point being that it would be hard not to share the technical and scientific knowledge they had with the people of 1941 and steer them away from the mistakes that didn't have to be made and such. That and stopping the massacre at Pearl Harbor would have had much further reaching consequences than just Pearl Harbor. How that might have played out, we have no way of knowing.

Agreed.

Nimitz at Pearl Harbor would have altered history.

So would the technology they brought with them.

I’m just pointing out that without that technology, which would take decades to replicate even with Nimitz as an example, that Nimitz combat capabilities would be measured in months, maybe a year.

But it works surely been worked changing.

WW

 

[Foxfyre]

I voted to not intervene due to the paradox do so would have created.

I think it's human nature for us to think that our acts would produce a better outcome, but the possibility always exists that it could make for a worse outcome.

Final Countdown has been one of my favorite movies. Here's another of my favorites:

Millennium (1989)

Millennium (1989)

www.imdb.com

Their dilemma was that they were in a time when Carter was not yet President and Franklin Delano Roosevelt was. From which President did they take command? On December 6, 1941 we were not at war with Japan or Germany or anybody else. Do we start one knowing 40 years in the future that such was Japan's intent but without the history we had, we couldn't have known that on Dec 6, 1941?

Then again what if your father was on the Arizona or otherwise would have been killed that day. You might have had a chance to know him. We might have gotten into the war anyway.

But meddling with history with all the very many variables involved and potential consequences is also a dangerous thing.

 

[Foxfyre]

Agreed.

Nimitz at Pearl Harbor would have altered history.

So would the technology they brought with them.

I’m just pointing out that without that technology, which would take decades to replicate even with Nimitz as an example, that Nimitz combat capabilities would be measured in months, maybe a year.

But it works surely been worked changing.

WW

I wonder. There would be wealth of knowledge and science aboard the Nimitz that the 1941 world did take decades to develop. Good thing or bad thing to speed up that process? I don't know. I just know the more far reaching ramifications of altering history that would make that a tough call.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I wonder. There would be wealth of knowledge and science aboard the Nimitz that the 1941 world did take decades to develop. Good thing or bad thing to speed up that process? I don't know. I just know the more far reaching ramifications of altering history that would make that a tough call.

Correct, there would be a wealth of knowledge about how the systems work and how to maintain them.

But that doesn't translate into a wealth of information about how to manufacture them. I'm thinking microchips, advanced materials compositions, etc.

Would the knowledge jump start the process? Sure. Would it be quickly reproduceable? Doubt it.

Would it change the world? Absolutely.

WW

 

[westwall]

I wonder. There would be wealth of knowledge and science aboard the Nimitz that the 1941 world did take decades to develop. Good thing or bad thing to speed up that process? I don't know. I just know the more far reaching ramifications of altering history that would make that a tough call.

If you want to follow that route go back to Rome. They had steam power, but realized it would completely alter their slave based economy, so passed a law that steam power could only be used for entertainment.

Just imagine if Rome had industrialized back then? 1500 plus years before it eventually happened...